How long to pay off Y/H/S sticker in NYC biglaw? Forum

[asdfdfdfadfas]

I don't think people should have to attend law school bearing all of the risk of the government financing while the school administrators and "teachers" take their lofty government financed salaries. I don't care if "that is the way it has always worked", which following that logic we would be sitting around camp fires, hunting and scavenging for food, and attacking each other because that's the way it's always been. In addition, the loans have behavioral consequences as well. Let's say you get to Big law and it turns out the firm you are working at is doing something unethical or even illegal. With 300k sitting over your head, you can't exactly be like WELP, see ya.

Anyways, that $300,000 price tag is keeping people out because without the financial backing from the government/ private industries prices would have to fall as demand would drop because no one has $300k sitting around. This is the primary reason why education costs keep going up.

I think you're in hammer/nail mode.

I think you are avoiding my argument.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you don't seem capable of making a coherent argument. You're parroting an argument you've heard before (actually, an argument we've all heard before) and mindlessly cramming it into a box where it doesn't fit. When folks have pointed out the mismatch, you respond by repeating the same stuff over and over without regard to the points others are making. If there's anyone "avoiding" arguments in this thread, it's you.

I don't think it matters whether or not we are talking HYS or University of Alabama. Sure the outcomes at HYS are better. Either way, the vast majority of people are financing their education by borrowing money up front and signing on the bottom line for a loan for an unguaranteed outcome. Once you get that loan, your teachers get paid no matter what. They are making money today, similarly to a life insurance company, taking your money today and promising you a pay out at some later point. Obviously these are two different situations, but hopefully you see the parallel. OP should consider the worst outcome in his/her decision.

That outcome based on what has been discussed can be simplified as being 300k in debt, graduating deciding that you hate practicing law in Big Law working 24/7 (if you get Biglaw remember 25% of the class won't), leave with let's say 200k in debt, end up having to take a normal job making a more normal salary such as 50k, and end up with a 200k tax bomb at the end of 20 year payee.

Please correct me if anything above is wrong or I missed something.

[goodoldmacintosh]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

[bretby]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

Are you kidding? People talk about that all.the.time.

[WinterComing]

I don't think people should have to attend law school bearing all of the risk of the government financing while the school administrators and "teachers" take their lofty government financed salaries. I don't care if "that is the way it has always worked", which following that logic we would be sitting around camp fires, hunting and scavenging for food, and attacking each other because that's the way it's always been. In addition, the loans have behavioral consequences as well. Let's say you get to Big law and it turns out the firm you are working at is doing something unethical or even illegal. With 300k sitting over your head, you can't exactly be like WELP, see ya.

Anyways, that $300,000 price tag is keeping people out because without the financial backing from the government/ private industries prices would have to fall as demand would drop because no one has $300k sitting around. This is the primary reason why education costs keep going up.

I think you're in hammer/nail mode.

I think you are avoiding my argument.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you don't seem capable of making a coherent argument. You're parroting an argument you've heard before (actually, an argument we've all heard before) and mindlessly cramming it into a box where it doesn't fit. When folks have pointed out the mismatch, you respond by repeating the same stuff over and over without regard to the points others are making. If there's anyone "avoiding" arguments in this thread, it's you.

I don't think it matters whether or not we are talking HYS or University of Alabama. Sure the outcomes at HYS are better. Either way, the vast majority of people are financing their education by borrowing money up front and signing on the bottom line for a loan for an unguaranteed outcome. Once you get that loan, your teachers get paid no matter what. They are making money today, similarly to a life insurance company, taking your money today and promising you a pay out at some later point. Obviously these are two different situations, but hopefully you see the parallel. OP should consider the worst outcome in his/her decision.

That outcome based on what has been discussed can be simplified as being 300k in debt, graduating deciding that you hate practicing law in Big Law working 24/7 (if you get Biglaw remember 25% of the class won't), leave with let's say 200k in debt, end up having to take a normal job making a more normal salary such as 50k, and end up with a 200k tax bomb at the end of 20 year payee.

Please correct me if anything above is wrong or I missed something.

1. People who leave Big Law and go to work in-house for a company generally still make six figures. What are you basing $50k on? That seems wrong.

2. Do you see the irony in you saying that the teachers are the ones benefiting from this scam, when most of those professors are people who went to HYS, a decent number of whom presumably took loans (especially the younger ones)?

3. This forum is full of actual lawyers telling people not to go to law school. What do you think is the value add of someone who isn't a lawyer telling people not to go to law school?

Look, I'm not saying your basic premise is wrong. Taking on a ton of debt for a law degree probably isn't a good idea. As other posters above laid out, even when you're making a big salary, sticker debt can wreck your QOL. But of the many people here making that argument, you are worse at it than most.

[PeanutsNJam]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

Where can I find an apartment for less than 3k in NYC that doesn't make me feel like I'm still living in an undergrad dorm? No doorman needed, or even elevator needed, just AC, heating, in-unit washer/dryer, dishwasher, and intact walls/doors/windows. In an area not riddled with crime.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

I don't think people should have to attend law school bearing all of the risk of the government financing while the school administrators and "teachers" take their lofty government financed salaries. I don't care if "that is the way it has always worked", which following that logic we would be sitting around camp fires, hunting and scavenging for food, and attacking each other because that's the way it's always been. In addition, the loans have behavioral consequences as well. Let's say you get to Big law and it turns out the firm you are working at is doing something unethical or even illegal. With 300k sitting over your head, you can't exactly be like WELP, see ya.

Anyways, that $300,000 price tag is keeping people out because without the financial backing from the government/ private industries prices would have to fall as demand would drop because no one has $300k sitting around. This is the primary reason why education costs keep going up.

I think you're in hammer/nail mode.

I think you are avoiding my argument.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you don't seem capable of making a coherent argument. You're parroting an argument you've heard before (actually, an argument we've all heard before) and mindlessly cramming it into a box where it doesn't fit. When folks have pointed out the mismatch, you respond by repeating the same stuff over and over without regard to the points others are making. If there's anyone "avoiding" arguments in this thread, it's you.

I don't think it matters whether or not we are talking HYS or University of Alabama. Sure the outcomes at HYS are better. Either way, the vast majority of people are financing their education by borrowing money up front and signing on the bottom line for a loan for an unguaranteed outcome. Once you get that loan, your teachers get paid no matter what. They are making money today, similarly to a life insurance company, taking your money today and promising you a pay out at some later point. Obviously these are two different situations, but hopefully you see the parallel. OP should consider the worst outcome in his/her decision.

That outcome based on what has been discussed can be simplified as being 300k in debt, graduating deciding that you hate practicing law in Big Law working 24/7 (if you get Biglaw remember 25% of the class won't), leave with let's say 200k in debt, end up having to take a normal job making a more normal salary such as 50k, and end up with a 200k tax bomb at the end of 20 year payee.

Please correct me if anything above is wrong or I missed something.

One more try:

1. People who leave Big Law and go to work in-house for a company generally still make six figures. What are you basing $50k on? That seems wrong.

2. Do you see the irony in you saying that the teachers are the ones benefiting from this scam, when most of those professors are people who went to HYS, a decent number of whom presumably took loans (especially the younger ones)?

3. This forum is full of actual lawyers telling people not to go to law school. What do you think is the value add of someone who isn't a lawyer telling people not to go to law school?

Look, I'm not saying your basic premise is wrong. Taking on a ton of debt for a law degree probably isn't a good idea. As other posters above laid out, even when you're making a big salary, sticker debt can wreck your QOL. But of the many people here making that argument, you are worse at it than most.

1) Assuming you exit Biglaw and just did an average joe job. Obviously, that number fluctuates based on where it is you would be working and what job you actually did. I just picked one.
2) Right, well if we all go major in philosophy and then we just go become philosophy teachers, as a society who is actually participating in the real economy that produces the goods? The fact that these teachers went through the same cycle doesn't detract from anything I said. If it's anything like undergrad I would be willing to bet they all use the same books and follow a standardized structure for their class working straight out of the book.
3) I didn't say OP should or shouldn't did I? I said, it's worth considering the absolute WORST situation that could happen before making the jump and borrowing 250K or 300K or whatever.

I didn't know it was a running competition on TLS to see who could most thoroughly elucidate the fact that thousands of people every year are being conned by law schools all around the country. I am simply trying to put all the facts together myself and look at all of this objectively.

[smaug]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

Where can I find an apartment for less than 3k in NYC that doesn't make me feel like I'm still living in an undergrad dorm? No doorman needed, or even elevator needed, just AC, heating, in-unit washer/dryer, dishwasher, and intact walls/doors/windows. In an area not riddled with crime.

if you give up in unit washer this would be very easy

still doable in manhattan with that exact list, though.

and also the "riddled with crime" part makes me think you've like, never been to manhattan or haven't been in ten years.

it's fuckin' disney land here

[mvp99]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

Are you kidding? People talk about that all.the.time.

And now even more. It's getting a bit better.

[mvp99]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

I would like to know also cuz Im calling BS on payig off 150k debt in two years. And in any case I'm not sure this is the best way to spend your money.

[t-14orbust]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

I would like to know also cuz Im calling BS on payig off 150k debt in two years. And in any case I'm not sure this is the best way to spend your money.

there's no state income tax in texas (saves on NYC city tax and state income tax) and COL is so much cheaper. I could see this getting done in 2.5 years if the person lives semi frugally.

I'd do the same if I could tolerate living in Texas (I couldn't)

check out these apartments:
http://www.apartmentguide.com/apartment ... s-1z141wj/

COL comparison:
http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-livin ... -ny/130000

[Desert Fox]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

I would like to know also cuz Im calling BS on payig off 150k debt in two years. And in any case I'm not sure this is the best way to spend your money.

there's no state income tax in texas (saves on NYC city tax and state income tax) and COL is so much cheaper. I could see this getting done in 2.5 years if the person lives semi frugally.

I'd do the same if I could tolerate living in Texas (I couldn't)

There is almost definitely something that person isn't mentioning, like having a spouses income.

Also lol at anyone in NYC pretending they can't tolerate Dallas or Houston. Just lol.

[abl]

Shameless secondary market plug -

I will have finished paying off $150k H/Y/S debt in Texas Biglaw living a good lifestyle by the end of this year (two years).

Would you mind indicating what your annual expenses are? Would be interesting to compare it to NYC standards and see if people can just be frugal about things and do the same. Though it's rarely talked about, you don't have to pay $3k per month for rent in NYC.

I would like to know also cuz Im calling BS on payig off 150k debt in two years. And in any case I'm not sure this is the best way to spend your money.

there's no state income tax in texas (saves on NYC city tax and state income tax) and COL is so much cheaper. I could see this getting done in 2.5 years if the person lives semi frugally.

I'd do the same if I could tolerate living in Texas (I couldn't)

There is almost definitely something that person isn't mentioning, like having a spouses income.

Also lol at anyone in NYC pretending they can't tolerate Dallas or Houston. Just lol.

FWIW my single, unsupported friend in a secondary market just sent me her budget (and she said she doesn't feel like money's that tight):

$800/m rent
$100/m utilities
$75/m renters/auto insurance
$75/m internet/netflix/hulu/amazon prime (no cable)
$100/m car, health, misc expenses
$400/m food (grocery and restaurant) budget
$50/m gas
$500/m retirement contributions (also firm matches)

TOTAL budget: $2,100/m
TOTAL post-tax income (accounting for bonuses): $7,200/m

Difference: $5,100/m
(Monthly drain of paying off $280,000 in debt (refi-ed at 3.5%) over a five-year period: $5,100)

Incidentally, she's planning on paying off her loans more slowly and saving for a house. In her neighborhood, she says that she can buy a two-family house for about $20,000 down where the second unit rent will cover her monthly mortgage/insurance payments. She'll have an emergency fund and enough for a downpayment by the end of her first year. After that, her effective rent will drop close to $0, and she's planning on putting most of that savings into loan repayments, with the remainder going into some combination of a travel and luxuries/clothes budget. She thinks that she'll be able to pay off her sticker debt with this plan in around five years. She also says that there's much less of an up and out culture at her secondary market firm, so staying for five years is a super feasible goal.