PSLF Question Forum

[ChristianR]

So, it looks like my total law school debt will be about $140,000. I definitely want to work in public interest or government, and I'm going to school / plan to work in DC (high living costs) so I'm very interested. My other option would be taking loans from my parents (more flexibility, no interest), but I would get no loan forgiveness in this scenario.

So PSLF would forgive my loans after 10 years of working in public interest, and I would like to use the minimum Pay-As-You-Earn payment (capped at 10% of my salary). However, (and I had to calculate this) if my salary goes over about $110,000 (possible, after 4 years working in government according to the GS scale), I would have to switch to an ICR payment that is 20% of my salary annually. No big deal, but does anyone know if switching repayment plans restarts the clock on my required 10 years of service? It's very possible I would start on Pay-As-You-Earn and have to switch to a higher payment as my salary rose. Would I maintain eligibility for the program if I switch payment plans midway?

And if no one knows the answer (I know it's really specific), do you have a sense of who I could ask?

Thank you! -Christian

[GreenEggs]

Are you attending a law school with an LRAP program?

[toomanymornings]

So, it looks like my total law school debt will be about $140,000. I definitely want to work in public interest or government, and I'm going to school / plan to work in DC (high living costs) so I'm very interested. My other option would be taking loans from my parents (more flexibility, no interest), but I would get no loan forgiveness in this scenario.

So PSLF would forgive my loans after 10 years of working in public interest, and I would like to use the minimum Pay-As-You-Earn payment (capped at 10% of my salary). However, (and I had to calculate this) if my salary goes over about $110,000 (possible, after 4 years working in government according to the GS scale), I would have to switch to an ICR payment that is 20% of my salary annually. No big deal, but does anyone know if switching repayment plans restarts the clock on my required 10 years of service? It's very possible I would start on Pay-As-You-Earn and have to switch to a higher payment as my salary rose. Would I maintain eligibility for the program if I switch payment plans midway?

And if no one knows the answer (I know it's really specific), do you have a sense of who I could ask?

Thank you! -Christian

No, I don't think the clock resets. PSLF is a federal program that's separate from your school's LRAP, so the terms of the LRAP don't affect it. If you make the 120 payments while working in qualified employment, your loans should be forgiven.

I could be wrong here but I'm pretty confident in this answer.

[lapolicia]

Why would you need to switch to ICR if your salary is above 110,000? Also, no, switching repayment plans does not reset the clock.

Also, if your school has an LRAP it's unlikely to be particularly useful after your first year or two if you work for the federal government. But many agencies have their own loan repayment programs that you should look into.

[ChristianR]

Are you attending a law school with an LRAP program?

Yeah, GW. However, they have an odd stipulation that your public interest job "serve underrepresented or indigent populations". That's kind of a nebulous concept and hard to figure out whether my job would fit that description - likely it depends on how strictly you interpret it. And they have yet to answer my email about it, but yeah I'm considering their LRAP too.

[OutOfTheQuestion]

Also keep in mind there's a solid chance the PSLF might be capped by the time your 10 years are up. The Obama administration already suggested this in a budget proposal at one point I believe. I hope to go the PSLF route too, but politics might get in the way and cap the forgivable loans at $60k or something. There's no way to be grandfathered in to the program. Just something to think about.

[somethingElse]

Also keep in mind there's a solid chance the PSLF might be capped by the time your 10 years are up. The Obama administration already suggested this in a budget proposal at one point I believe. I hope to go the PSLF route too, but politics might get in the way and cap the forgivable loans at $60k or something. There's no way to be grandfathered in to the program. Just something to think about.

I don't think this is accurate. Why do you say that?

[mabes]

Also keep in mind there's a solid chance the PSLF might be capped by the time your 10 years are up. The Obama administration already suggested this in a budget proposal at one point I believe. I hope to go the PSLF route too, but politics might get in the way and cap the forgivable loans at $60k or something. There's no way to be grandfathered in to the program. Just something to think about.

I don't think this is accurate. Why do you say that?

Yeah it's my impression that this is exactly what would happen, if not by the federal government than by your given institution. Maybe it depends on the school and how supportive they are, but there's precedent for the Feds changing a program and grandfathering in everyone already enrolled

[somethingElse]

Also keep in mind there's a solid chance the PSLF might be capped by the time your 10 years are up. The Obama administration already suggested this in a budget proposal at one point I believe. I hope to go the PSLF route too, but politics might get in the way and cap the forgivable loans at $60k or something. There's no way to be grandfathered in to the program. Just something to think about.

I don't think this is accurate. Why do you say that?

Yeah it's my impression that this is exactly what would happen, if not by the federal government than by your given institution. Maybe it depends on the school and how supportive they are, but there's precedent for the Feds changing a program and grandfathering in everyone already enrolled

Your impression is that people would be grandfathered in, right? Just want to make sure I'm understanding you. If I were forced to bet I would say so as well, but I think it's important to note that at this point nobody can say with really any sort of certainty not only whether or not people would be grandfathered in, but whether or not PSLF will even be changed anytime in the near future. It's just a lot of uncertainty at this point, nobody's loans have even been forgiven yet (first time will be in 2017). That's been my understanding based on communicating with a school's financial aid staff.

I also agree with the sentiment that different schools are better equipped to/would handle that situation than others (see HYS and Columbia's LRAPs that do not rely on the feds).

[A. Nony Mouse]

The problem with grandfathering PSLF is that no one is actually "on" PSLF until you make the 120 payments and apply to have the loan forgiven. You're on an income-based repayment plan, and you can get your employment certified as PSLF-eligible, but until you complete the 120 payments you're just on an income-based repayment plan, working in public service. You're not on a PSLF track. So taking PSLF away would be different from taking away PAYE or IBR.

(this is obviously distinct from any given school's LRAP program, though many of those are now tied to PLSF in that they pay your income-based repayment plan payment for 10 years assuming you'll get the rest forgiven, which in practice means they're not really paying down your loans at all. Only a few, I think, actually commit to really paying the loans. But T14 experts will have to weigh in on that.)

I like to think it won't happen, myself, and I suspect there would be some kind of grace period/grandfathering, given how much schools have been promoting PSLF (so students relied on it being on option when going to school). But I can't give any evidence in support of that and just have to cross my fingers. (After all, the cap hasn't been passed yet.)

[somethingElse]

^ Good points. Yeah I just learned recently that you're not even required to let the government know you're in PSLF-qualifying employment to get it certified (though you can as you alluded to). Definitely strange.

And yes, I believe that HYS' LRAP programs actually do pay down your loans, as does Columbia's (though for Columbia's its an option; you can choose to combine it with PSLF and even IBR for further 'benefits'). I'm curious myself as to whether or not any schools work that way, but as far as I know its only those four.

[OutOfTheQuestion]

Also keep in mind there's a solid chance the PSLF might be capped by the time your 10 years are up. The Obama administration already suggested this in a budget proposal at one point I believe. I hope to go the PSLF route too, but politics might get in the way and cap the forgivable loans at $60k or something. There's no way to be grandfathered in to the program. Just something to think about.

I don't think this is accurate. Why do you say that?

I was under that impression in the research I've done, but I hope I'm wrong then. A while ago, there was a post explaining that there's no guarantee of grandfathering. I just went back and found the post I was thinking of, by A. Nony Mouse:

This is just my understanding, so don't take it as gospel, but: my understanding is that no one is currently "on" PSLF. You can be employed in a PSLF-eligible job, but you can't get the loan forgiveness until you've made 120 payments on a qualifying payment plan (basically, any of the income-based plans or extended payment plan; technically you're not ineligible if on a standard plan, but you'd pay that off in 10 years so would have no loans needing forgiveness). Only after you've made the payments do you apply to have the loan forgiven.

So, while I don't like this answer, I suspect that strictly speaking the program could be changed or eliminated at any time, because no one is actually taking part in the program until they apply for forgiveness. Before then you don't sign up for anything, you don't get labeled as "on PSLF" in any way, you're not entered into any database or system as "doing PSLF." The closest is that you can file forms with the loan people certifying that a particular job qualifies for PSLF, but that's not required.

Here's the link to the rest of that post:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... f#p8823992

EDIT: crap, looks like A. Nony Mouse beat me to his own point. That's what happens when you try to post while pretending you're working.

[somethingElse]

Oh, for sure, there's definitely no guarantee of grandfathering. But that's a much weaker statement than saying "There's no way to be grandfathered in." I think there's definitely a way (i.e. it's possible). How likely it is, well that's another story.

[toomanymornings]

People making some good points here, but can I just say how stupid it is for the federal government to be like, "Work in public service and we'll pay back your loans," and then revoke that benefit before all but one class of people can do so? Especially since, as someone said, law schools make such a big deal about it. "Go into the public sector and you won't have to worry about crushing debt...maybe" is not exactly something to structure your career around.

That said, I will probably feel better about this if and when Hillary gets in office, because she's at least campaigning on student debt relief programs. Not a guarantee by any means of course, but Trump wants to cut the Department of Ed. altogether. Ha!

[A. Nony Mouse]

People making some good points here, but can I just say how stupid it is for the federal government to be like, "Work in public service and we'll pay back your loans," and then revoke that benefit before all but one class of people can do so? Especially since, as someone said, law schools make such a big deal about it. "Go into the public sector and you won't have to worry about crushing debt...maybe" is not exactly something to structure your career around.

That said, I will probably feel better about this if and when Hillary gets in office, because she's at least campaigning on student debt relief programs. Not a guarantee by any means of course, but Trump wants to cut the Department of Ed. altogether. Ha!

To be fair, I've never seen a proposal to scrap it altogether. The proposal was to institute a cap of $57k or so, which makes some sense when you consider it wasn't created for law students specifically, and there are a lot of degrees for public-interest-y fields that wouldn't cost what a law degree costs (teaching, social work, public policy, urban planning, etc).

[toomanymornings]

People making some good points here, but can I just say how stupid it is for the federal government to be like, "Work in public service and we'll pay back your loans," and then revoke that benefit before all but one class of people can do so? Especially since, as someone said, law schools make such a big deal about it. "Go into the public sector and you won't have to worry about crushing debt...maybe" is not exactly something to structure your career around.

That said, I will probably feel better about this if and when Hillary gets in office, because she's at least campaigning on student debt relief programs. Not a guarantee by any means of course, but Trump wants to cut the Department of Ed. altogether. Ha!

To be fair, I've never seen a proposal to scrap it altogether. The proposal was to institute a cap of $57k or so, which makes some sense when you consider it wasn't created for law students specifically, and there are a lot of degrees for public-interest-y fields that wouldn't cost what a law degree costs (teaching, social work, public policy, urban planning, etc).

Yeah, the cap does make sense, I agree. I think I may be skeptical to the point of paranoia when it comes to PSLF.

[OutOfTheQuestion]

Oh, for sure, there's definitely no guarantee of grandfathering. But that's a much weaker statement than saying "There's no way to be grandfathered in." I think there's definitely a way (i.e. it's possible). How likely it is, well that's another story.

You're right, I should have said that there's no way to guarantee being grandfathered in. I would hope people who are already in eligible employment/etc will have at least some forgiveness, even if the program is capped/cut.

[seagan823]

I know this information isn't helpful for OP, but I will share it anyway. I'm nervous about PSLF and pressed people at ASWs about it. At GULC when I asked, "What are your plans for LRAP if the PSLF is capped," they basically said they didn't know and they encourage people to borrow conservatively. NYU expected the question, and they said they were actively fund-raising to fully endow LRAP work as it does now, but the school would be still able to cover people on their less generous "standard" LRAP plan that people in international NGOs or private public interest firms use. The people I met who went up to CLS ASW told me Columbia's LRAP is fully endowed according to a presentation they went to. I am pretty sure HYS all have fully endowed LRAPS as well.

The LRAP guy at NYU offered me a bit of relief from all this anxiety when he pointed out that there are many, many hill staffers relying on PSLF on both side of the aisle. For a congressman or senator to turn around and say to his staff, "Hey, I know you have been working as an LA for me for three years making 55k, but I am going to vote to cap your loan forgiveness" seems somewhat unrealistic. It is certainly possible it could be capped at 60k or whatever, and that is a risk to be considered, but I trust the reality of Washington nepotism more than I ever trusted the good nature of PSLF.

[hopingtogo2016]

The LRAP guy at NYU offered me a bit of relief from all this anxiety when he pointed out that there are many, many hill staffers relying on PSLF on both side of the aisle. For a congressman or senator to turn around and say to his staff, "Hey, I know you have been working as an LA for me for three years making 55k, but I am going to vote to cap your loan forgiveness" seems somewhat unrealistic. It is certainly possible it could be capped at 60k or whatever, and that is a risk to be considered, but I trust the reality of Washington nepotism more than I ever trusted the good nature of PSLF.

This.

Live in DC, work in politics. Also, for any 0Ls, Congress isn't going to do anything before November and it would set a bad precedent to change the rules for people already enrolled in graduate school because decisions were made based on certain assumptions. If there are changes I expect they would not apply to anybody enrolled by the date the legislation passes.

[crescentstars]

NYU expected the question, and they said they were actively fund-raising to fully endow LRAP work as it does now, but the school would be still able to cover people on their less generous "standard" LRAP plan that people in international NGOs or private public interest firms use.

The LRAP guy at NYU offered me a bit of relief from all this anxiety when he pointed out that there are many, many hill staffers relying on PSLF on both side of the aisle. For a congressman or senator to turn around and say to his staff, "Hey, I know you have been working as an LA for me for three years making 55k, but I am going to vote to cap your loan forgiveness" seems somewhat unrealistic. It is certainly possible it could be capped at 60k or whatever, and that is a risk to be considered, but I trust the reality of Washington nepotism more than I ever trusted the good nature of PSLF.

This is really interesting -- when I asked about this at NYU's first ASW, I got a stock "we're committed to supporting our PI grads" answer combined with a "we don't really know what will happen" lol. Good to hear they're at least changing their tune/attempting to find a work-around.

Otherwise, I agree with everyone saying that grads who have entered/are about to enter law school will probably be grandfathered in some way should PSLF change/get cut. But I still think it's very possible that forgiveness might be capped for people already in the program. Maybe not at 57k (since that would really screw over a ton of graduates), but I really doubt that that the government will just pay off the loans of 10+ years of law school grads after said loans have undergone such long periods of negative amortization. Call me cynical, but I think the program is bound to be changed and that those changes will somehow make things a bit more complicated.

Of course, no one really knows what's going to happen. So... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯