Understanding the Cooley Scholarship Forum

[lawbreakr]

You seem pretty intent on attending despite what the majority of people here are telling you. By all means, go ahead and attend Cooley- it's your life after all. Just don't expect anyone to respect the degree that you will spend three years earning. Let there be no mistake: we're talking about the worst of the worst when it comes to law schools.

Best of luck to you.

Actually I respect what everyone is saying very much. I will try a couple other schools in the area as well. Obviously the cost of law school is a BFD. It's hard to justify it if it costs me sticker. MSU is the other obvious choice. If they offer no cost (or close), that obviously wins.

[thesealocust]

Why would you ever want a law degree to assist/complement your business when you can go T14! V10! to flameout all within 2 years of practice.

There are edge cases where a law degree can be useful even if one doesn't have the usual ambitions for their legal career. In those circumstances, lesser known schools that would usually be mocked on TLS can be extremely intelligent choices, especially at low or no cost to the student.

That is never the case for Cooley. It is an abomination, a joke, an embarrassment. Its existence is predatory. Society is worse off as a result of Cooley soliciting applications, "educating" students, and bestowing them with JDs.

[Johann]

Why would you ever want a law degree to assist/complement your business when you can go T14! V10! to flameout all within 2 years of practice.

There are edge cases where a law degree can be useful even if one doesn't have the usual ambitions for their legal career. In those circumstances, lesser known schools that would usually be mocked on TLS can be extremely intelligent choices, especially at low or no cost to the student.

That is never the case for Cooley. It is an abomination, a joke, an embarrassment. Its existence is predatory. Society is worse off as a result of Cooley soliciting applications, "educating" students, and bestowing them with JDs.

I agree most students are gamed by Cooley. But what about this case? Just because society would be better off without Cooley doesn't stop it from existing and the fact that OP might be able to game Cooley.

Assuming there is a price difference in Cooley and MSU (as the only 2 local schools... maybe we should consider the only online law school too?), should we really tell someone to wait 3 years while they are physically committed to a location and delay their business expansion venture for 3 years just to make Cooley worse off?

[TLSModBot]

Yes because presumably they are working and deriving an income. Unless the income differential with a Cooley JD over the long term is really worth 3 year's salary of this MBA businessman, then it is a bad idea.

[lawbreakr]

Other than the costs of a bad reputation and opportunity cost, what other reasons are there not to attend Cooley on a full ride?

This is just a guess, but is the idea that they teach law so poorly that I might end up causing a liability for myself? Are you guys saying that learning law from them might give me the false impression of competence which could lead to greater trouble?

I fully appreciate the argument to not attend Cooley at a significant cost. I just can't seem to understand the argument to avoid it at all costs.

[Johann]

Other than the costs of a bad reputation and opportunity cost, what other reasons are there not to attend Cooley on a full ride?

This is just a guess, but is the idea that they teach law so poorly that I might end up causing a liability for myself? Are you guys saying that learning law from them might give me the false impression of competence which could lead to greater trouble?

I fully appreciate the argument to not attend Cooley at a significant cost. I just can't seem to understand the argument to avoid it at all costs.

Are you going part time or full time? Is your business still going to make income while you are in school? I mean I wouldn't give up 3 years of good salary, but my understanding is you would be taking part time classes.

Law school is what you make it. Most shitty law schools still have professors that attended T6 law schools. The education is basically the same in that they give you tools and its up to you what to do with it.

What are you hoping to get out of the law school and what sort of insight into the law do you need?

[thesealocust]

Most shitty law schools still have professors that attended T6 law schools.

Maybe other shitty law schools. But not Cooley! Here is a list of the law schools the first 10 full professors on their website attended (SPOILER - 0% from T6 law schools, 50% from Cooley)

1. Cooley
2. Cooley
3. Michigan
4. Cooley
5. MSU-Detroit
6. Chicago-Kent
7. Cooley
8. Michigan
9. Detroit College of Law
10. Cooley
11. Creighton University

That's right: if you attend this abysmal law school, you will have the high honor of being taught by other people who attended this abysmal law school. It's like a snake eating itself.

Seriously, both of you, do some research. It's all on the web. We're not exaggerating about the festering shithole that is the Thomas M. Cooley School of Law.

[Johann]

I think we both understand its a shithole. The difference is whether or not we think there is a penny of value add there for a free degree. I basically learned everything I need in legal writing which was taught by a graduate of my shitty law school. I'm assuming he just needs to learn the ability to navigate some law which tools can be learned in a few hours of playing around westlaw and a couple of westlaw training sessions.

I get that everyone has an agenda here to shut down Cooley, but you're letting it bias your advice to this guy. There need to be a lot of exceptions present to attend Cooley but nonetheless, it's still a value add for some people.

There's 5 profs on that list too who I wouldn't mind learning law from. The Cooley thing is bad if it's really bad, but without sitting in on a class there, it's hard to tell. As someone who's taken classes at a TTT and T14 school, there was 0 difference.

[lawbreakr]

Are you going part time or full time? Is your business still going to make income while you are in school?

What are you hoping to get out of the law school and what sort of insight into the law do you need?

My business takes 30 hours and earns me a comfortable (though not exceptional) salary. Previously I worked 60 hours per week, 30 in my business and 30 in a business I shared with my father so I think I can maintain an average 60 hour level. Dad is retiring and I'm moving to Michigan so 30 hours will open up. That 30 hours can potentially be dedicated to law school or something else. These numbers are averages more than rules. The times do not include food, breaks.

I've read about people spending 60 hours per week so I guess part time is the answer. But this is Cooley right . . . haha

What are you hoping to get out of the law school and what sort of insight into the law do you need?

I'm assuming he just needs to learn the ability to navigate some law which tools can be learned in a few hours of playing around westlaw and a couple of westlaw training sessions.

I've gotten decent at reading the US Code, state statutes, and municipal codes -- just the basics available on the open Internet. Chapters 15 and 26 of the US Code are of most interest to me, but also various related state statutes. I'd like to learn more about how to research and understand how to apply case law and how to discover related precedents, especially with respect to "grey areas" that interest me professionally. I want to be able to dig deep into some ideas from a unique perspective thanks to domain knowledge I have. I've found it's cost-prohibitive to hire someone to do research like this with my present resources. From my (limited) experience, it's hard to find an affordable attorney with the right mix of legal and domain knowledge, and creativity. I also feel that these are skills that can benefit me for life so I'd really like to have them.

I really don't see myself representing any clients or even showing up in front of a judge at any point in time. If that's required, I'd prefer to leave that to a dedicated professional.

You might be right that I just need some Westlaw (or Lexis?) training sessions. I just feel that I may miss some major big-picture ideas if I don't get the full legal survey that is law school. I feel that doing all the work that's required to get a law degree might be the best training, even if many of the areas are not relevant to my interests. Also, I've noticed being an attorney means access law libraries not otherwise open to the public which could be a nice perk. Those license fees are pretty significant.

Any feedback on all this is very welcome.

[lawbreakr]

Most shitty law schools still have professors that attended T6 law schools.

Maybe other shitty law schools. But not Cooley! Here is a list of the law schools the first 10 full professors on their website attended (SPOILER - 0% from T6 law schools, 50% from Cooley)

1. Cooley
2. Cooley
3. Michigan
4. Cooley
5. MSU-Detroit
6. Chicago-Kent
7. Cooley
8. Michigan
9. Detroit College of Law
10. Cooley
11. Creighton University

That's right: if you attend this abysmal law school, you will have the high honor of being taught by other people who attended this abysmal law school. It's like a snake eating itself.

Seriously, both of you, do some research. It's all on the web. We're not exaggerating about the festering shithole that is the Thomas M. Cooley School of Law.

I did do some research and have found many articles and discussions supporting the lack of quality faculty. A lot of it is based on the idea that there is little incentive for their faculty to be active in the greater academic world. Obviously I will get as much out of it as I put in, but the instructors have to be competent. I need to really research this issue more.

[CanadianWolf]

I cannot offer any insight regarding Cooley Law, but can support the position that in the real world degrees matter. In the world of MBAs, the University of Phoenix online MBA may be somewhat akin to a Cooley Law degree. Many working managers get a part-time MBA from less than prestigious schools that enhance job security, ability to get promoted & result in pay raises. I've encountered no-name degrees in employment discrimination matters that seemingly closed the case on the basis of an objective standard--holding an MBA. One person I know saved her job & got a near 6 figure salary increase in a buy-out transition simply because she completed an online Univ. of Phoenix MBA before the transition took place. (More important for MBA degree holders because holders of a JD degree can still be measured by whether or not they are licensed to practice law.)

[Johann]

Are you going part time or full time? Is your business still going to make income while you are in school?

What are you hoping to get out of the law school and what sort of insight into the law do you need?

My business takes 30 hours and earns me a comfortable (though not exceptional) salary. Previously I worked 60 hours per week, 30 in my business and 30 in a business I shared with my father so I think I can maintain an average 60 hour level. Dad is retiring and I'm moving to Michigan so 30 hours will open up. That 30 hours can potentially be dedicated to law school or something else. These numbers are averages more than rules. The times do not include food, breaks.

I've read about people spending 60 hours per week so I guess part time is the answer. But this is Cooley right . . . haha

What are you hoping to get out of the law school and what sort of insight into the law do you need?

I'm assuming he just needs to learn the ability to navigate some law which tools can be learned in a few hours of playing around westlaw and a couple of westlaw training sessions.

I've gotten decent at reading the US Code, state statutes, and municipal codes -- just the basics available on the open Internet. Chapters 15 and 26 of the US Code are of most interest to me, but also various related state statutes. I'd like to learn more about how to research and understand how to apply case law and how to discover related precedents, especially with respect to "grey areas" that interest me professionally. I want to be able to dig deep into some ideas from a unique perspective thanks to domain knowledge I have. I've found it's cost-prohibitive to hire someone to do research like this with my present resources. From my (limited) experience, it's hard to find an affordable attorney with the right mix of legal and domain knowledge, and creativity. I also feel that these are skills that can benefit me for life so I'd really like to have them.

I really don't see myself representing any clients or even showing up in front of a judge at any point in time. If that's required, I'd prefer to leave that to a dedicated professional.

You might be right that I just need some Westlaw (or Lexis?) training sessions. I just feel that I may miss some major big-picture ideas if I don't get the full legal survey that is law school. Also, I've noticed being an attorney means access law libraries not otherwise open to the public which could be a nice perk. Those license fees are pretty significant.

shit lets be business partners.
Yeah legal research and reading case law is really simple stuff. Even assuming a major drop off in the quality of professor at Cooley, it's hard to imagine any professor (really any lawyer who's practiced too) from any law school not being able to explain this stuff. Since you won't be missing out on income assuming you can keep up 30 hours for your business and 30 hours for law school (which is more than plenty even full time) I think you're fine. And worst case scenario, it's just extra knowledge. If having the JD as a credential is helpful as a selling point or whatever, I'd get it. But if you only need the knowledge and not the credential at all, I'd probably just find some online courses for free or sit in on a couple law school classes (or just read some of the ontopic stuff here). The skills you are talking about can be learned in under 10 hours.

[CanadianWolf]

It's better to have an experienced attorney than a brilliant attorney. OP: It's okay to study the law for personal growth & to gain a better understanding of a regulated industry, but it would not be wise to try to save a few thousand dollars doing your own legal work when an experienced attorney is available. Hopefully, a law degree will help you streamline communications with attorneys or realize which matters need legal attention rather than using it as a total replacement for an experienced practitioner. Even the largest law firms in the country don't let their newly minted Harvard educated lawyers see the light of a courtroom or a client's office for a couple of years & then usually only with senior or a more experienced attorney present.

[TheSpanishMain]

I think we both understand its a shithole. The difference is whether or not we think there is a penny of value add there for a free degree. I basically learned everything I need in legal writing which was taught by a graduate of my shitty law school. I'm assuming he just needs to learn the ability to navigate some law which tools can be learned in a few hours of playing around westlaw and a couple of westlaw training sessions.

I get that everyone has an agenda here to shut down Cooley, but you're letting it bias your advice to this guy. There need to be a lot of exceptions present to attend Cooley but nonetheless, it's still a value add for some people.

There's 5 profs on that list too who I wouldn't mind learning law from. The Cooley thing is bad if it's really bad, but without sitting in on a class there, it's hard to tell. As someone who's taken classes at a TTT and T14 school, there was 0 difference.

I do get your point. There is probably some non-zero number of people who would genuinely benefit from a Cooley JD: their current employer tells them they'll get a hefty promotion/raise if they get a JD and pass the bar. Someone like that doesn't care about BigLaw numbers or LST or preftige or whatever: they just need the piece of paper. It's still a net loss to society that places like Cooley exist, but for individuals maybe they can wring a positive outcome out of it.

The thing is, for this calculus to work, there really needs to be a clear, defined career benefit. Like, "if you get a JD and pass the bar, we'll promote you and you'll make 30k more a year." If it's just some vague "I think I'll learn more about the law and that'll help me in my business", there are almost certainly more beneficial ways to spend your time. Even if a Cooley JD is completely free, that's still 20 hours a week he's not spending with his family, networking with clients, learning some new software, picking up a foreign language, etc. It might be free in the sense that he's not paying tuition, but there's still a pretty hefty opportunity cost.

[lawbreakr]

I think we both understand its a shithole. The difference is whether or not we think there is a penny of value add there for a free degree. I basically learned everything I need in legal writing which was taught by a graduate of my shitty law school. I'm assuming he just needs to learn the ability to navigate some law which tools can be learned in a few hours of playing around westlaw and a couple of westlaw training sessions.

I get that everyone has an agenda here to shut down Cooley, but you're letting it bias your advice to this guy. There need to be a lot of exceptions present to attend Cooley but nonetheless, it's still a value add for some people.

There's 5 profs on that list too who I wouldn't mind learning law from. The Cooley thing is bad if it's really bad, but without sitting in on a class there, it's hard to tell. As someone who's taken classes at a TTT and T14 school, there was 0 difference.

I do get your point. There is probably some non-zero number of people who would genuinely benefit from a Cooley JD: their current employer tells them they'll get a hefty promotion/raise if they get a JD and pass the bar. Someone like that doesn't care about BigLaw numbers or LST or preftige or whatever: they just need the piece of paper. It's still a net loss to society that places like Cooley exist, but for individuals maybe they can wring a positive outcome out of it.

The thing is, for this calculus to work, there really needs to be a clear, defined career benefit. Like, "if you get a JD and pass the bar, we'll promote you and you'll make 30k more a year." If it's just some vague "I think I'll learn more about the law and that'll help me in my business", there are almost certainly more beneficial ways to spend your time. Even if a Cooley JD is completely free, that's still 20 hours a week he's not spending with his family, networking with clients, learning some new software, picking up a foreign language, etc. It might be free in the sense that he's not paying tuition, but there's still a pretty hefty opportunity cost.

I agree with your analysis and conclusions. From a financial perspective, you are 100% correct.

However, this isn't a purely financial decision for me. I love to learn new things and have always been interested in the law. If I had $100 million in the bank and could do anything I wanted, I could see myself going to law school just for the personal enrichment. If I don't do law school, I will do something else having to do with law that enriches me intellectually. Perhaps it won't be as great a commitment, but it will be significant. That's why I am concerned not only with the credential (which I probably don't even need), but also with the quality of the education. Yes, I see this as helping me in business, but I also see value in the pure act of gaining knowledge.

---

I'm in contact with Admissions to see if I can get a definitive scholarship scale given my GPA stats. I have decided that I will only consider a 100% or a 90% scholarship. I will not consider anything lower than 90%. Given the guarantee of such a scholarship and being comfortable with the academics, only then will I open myself to a decision on Cooley.

I will also apply to MSU though I will be more flexible on deciding that one.

I may not do law school at all. However, I do feel it's a good option for me.

[Holly Golightly]

Have you looked into MSU at all? As many people ITT have said, it's still local and may actually make sense for you. Attending Cooley, even for free, would be a detriment to your resume to almost anyone who knows anything about law schools.

[LA Spring]

Back in my pre-law and law school days I would check the various firm sites and I would notice that a number of these respected law firms employed a fair number of Cooley grads…. associates, partners on up to a couple Chairman. Was Cooley once [highly] respected? If so, what happened? I will say that if it wasn’t for TLS I would have had no opinion on Cooley whatsoever (ditto two-thirds of the law schools I have rarely or never heard of).

[A. Nony Mouse]

Other than the costs of a bad reputation and opportunity cost, what other reasons are there not to attend Cooley on a full ride?

Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

I get the point about why you want a JD and how the name doesn't matter (as much), and I am not a school snob at all. But I've also just heard terrible things about the atmosphere/culture. And it would be depressing to attend the school, even on full scholarship, knowing how badly almost all your classmates are being taken advantage of.

[foregetaboutdre]

If are from MI/close to the Cooley campus you might as well just attend MSU's part time program. MSU isn't a great LS either, but you will at least be able to keep your job and you will also get the perks of MSU's overall pretty good national reputation. MSU is pretty generous with scholarships, but be a little weary as its employment numbers are not good/pretty bad (like Cooley, but not as dismal).

For non-Michigan natives Cooley is a huge dumpster fire. If you're native to MI and esp. from the Lansing area you WILL see people with Cooley degrees in some pretty good occupations (usually these people are older). I have no evidence for this, but I believe Cooley may have been a more legitimate school around 30 years ago. I have been asked if I was considering Cooley (lol) when applying to LS and believe it or not Cooley isn't necessarily a toxic designation in Mid-Michigan. Also to people who are wondering many people in MI state gov't have Cooley degrees mostly through PT programs taken after work as Cooley's campus is literally 2 blocks from the MI state capitol building.

[lawbreakr]

Okay here is another concern about Cooley.

1L Enrollment
Fall 2010: 1583
Fall 2011: 1161
Fall 2012: 897
Fall 2013: 582
Fall 2014: 445

Source: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cooley/2014/

Makes you wonder if Cooley is going to exist long enough to earn a JD . . .

[souzakid]

I think we both understand its a shithole. The difference is whether or not we think there is a penny of value add there for a free degree. I basically learned everything I need in legal writing which was taught by a graduate of my shitty law school. I'm assuming he just needs to learn the ability to navigate some law which tools can be learned in a few hours of playing around westlaw and a couple of westlaw training sessions.

I get that everyone has an agenda here to shut down Cooley, but you're letting it bias your advice to this guy. There need to be a lot of exceptions present to attend Cooley but nonetheless, it's still a value add for some people.

There's 5 profs on that list too who I wouldn't mind learning law from. The Cooley thing is bad if it's really bad, but without sitting in on a class there, it's hard to tell. As someone who's taken classes at a TTT and T14 school, there was 0 difference.

I do get your point. There is probably some non-zero number of people who would genuinely benefit from a Cooley JD: their current employer tells them they'll get a hefty promotion/raise if they get a JD and pass the bar. Someone like that doesn't care about BigLaw numbers or LST or preftige or whatever: they just need the piece of paper. It's still a net loss to society that places like Cooley exist, but for individuals maybe they can wring a positive outcome out of it.

The thing is, for this calculus to work, there really needs to be a clear, defined career benefit. Like, "if you get a JD and pass the bar, we'll promote you and you'll make 30k more a year." If it's just some vague "I think I'll learn more about the law and that'll help me in my business", there are almost certainly more beneficial ways to spend your time. Even if a Cooley JD is completely free, that's still 20 hours a week he's not spending with his family, networking with clients, learning some new software, picking up a foreign language, etc. It might be free in the sense that he's not paying tuition, but there's still a pretty hefty opportunity cost.

I agree with your analysis and conclusions. From a financial perspective, you are 100% correct.

However, this isn't a purely financial decision for me. I love to learn new things and have always been interested in the law. If I had $100 million in the bank and could do anything I wanted, I could see myself going to law school just for the personal enrichment. If I don't do law school, I will do something else having to do with law that enriches me intellectually. Perhaps it won't be as great a commitment, but it will be significant. That's why I am concerned not only with the credential (which I probably don't even need), but also with the quality of the education. Yes, I see this as helping me in business, but I also see value in the pure act of gaining knowledge.

---

I'm in contact with Admissions to see if I can get a definitive scholarship scale given my GPA stats. I have decided that I will only consider a 100% or a 90% scholarship. I will not consider anything lower than 90%. Given the guarantee of such a scholarship and being comfortable with the academics, only then will I open myself to a decision on Cooley.

I will also apply to MSU though I will be more flexible on deciding that one.

I may not do law school at all. However, I do feel it's a good option for me.

Cooley isn't a quality education.