PhD after JD--how are finances affected? Forum

[boomah]

If someone's going into academia and does a PhD right after his JD, how does that affect finances? Presumably he won't be earning anything for the next 4-7 years, so what happens to his law school loans during this period?

I'm especially interested in HYS (and the T14 generally).

Thanks!

[ymmv]

If someone's going into academia and does a PhD right after his JD, how does that affect finances? Presumably he won't be earning anything for the next 4-7 years, so what happens to his law school loans during this period?

I'm especially interested in HYS (and the T14 generally).

Thanks!

Get your PhD first if you're serious about gunning legal academia.
Incidentally, PhD programs do pay. They just pay shit is all, like $25k range depending on the program.

[twenty]

Harvard's LRAP will cover up to seven years of a PhD program, which if you're going for legal academia, is not a bad idea at all. Stanford's JD/PhD is completely financed by the school.

In a lot of cases, if you're working "full time" for the school and being paid in some respect, your time spent on your PhD may qualify for time in PSLF. This is sketchy though, and I'd be reluctant to count on this as an option.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Aren't your loans automatically deferred if you enter another degree program?

[boomah]

Get your PhD first if you're serious about gunning legal academia.

Interesting... why do you say so?

I'm very serious about academia; however, I was thinking of doing a JD/PhD program, or first doing a JD and from there applying to a PhD. Those seemed like the traditional routes. Why do you suggest a PhD first?

Harvard's LRAP will cover up to seven years of a PhD program, which if you're going for legal academia, is not a bad idea at all. Stanford's JD/PhD is completely financed by the school.

"Harvard's LRAP will cover up to seven years of a PhD program"

Could you please explain what that bit means? Does that mean they'll defer the loans for up to seven years? Sorry, I'm not very familiar with law school loan repayment programs.

Stanford's policy seems wonderful, but unfortunately they don't have the PhD program I'm interested in.

Thanks guys for all the help!

[Snuffles1]

Generally schools prefer to hire people who do the PhD first because going to law school second makes them worry less about hiring someone whose commitment is really to their discipline rather than to law. Not a hard and fast rule, but you'll probably be asked more about it than someone who decided to get the JD after a phd. You're also more likely to be out of touch with law issues by the time you're out.

If you don't get into a phd program that pays you, you probably don't want to go. 7 years from a non-R1 program may not hurt (but it might, as above) but it won't help as much. The pay will be like what was already mentioned - $20-25k - and you'll have to get research grants and/or teach while you're doing the program. Not for the money (but that too) but because it's expected.

You also want to make sure you really enjoy what you choose to do for your phd. Chances are you'll be working on one topic for ten years (~6 years of the phd plus publications and teaching for the early stage of your job). Think law review times ten. That said, you need to choose your discipline and topic carefully - academic disciplines are much more forgiving of esoteric research interests than law.

[twenty]

Could you please explain what that bit means? Does that mean they'll defer the loans for up to seven years? Sorry, I'm not very familiar with law school loan repayment programs.

No, it means Harvard will make your JD loan payments for as long as you're in the program. Suppose you're supposed to be paying 400k over a ten year repayment plan (which would be 250k + interest). Suppose you're in the program for 7 years. That means Harvard will pay 7/10ths of your JD debt, which would leave you with about 120k to go when you're done with your PhD.

[persimmon]

You are getting a little bit of weird advice here, though the LRAP explanations are on target. Getting a PhD after a JD is a common way to get into academia, much more common than the reverse. This makes sense because, if your interests aren't focused and developed enough to get you into a PhD program right now, law school is a great place to work on that. I recommend this aggregation (and previous years) to see trajectories into academia right now, obviously google the people for more info also: http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... -2014.html.

If you do feel ready for the PhD, it's worth considering joint degrees, since these can save you time and money and have other advantages for your research timing. Yale, Harvard, and Stanford will all give full or partial (Stanford does 2/3 usually, last I checked) scholarships to JD-PhDs when they obviously don't do that for anyone else. Schools that do have some standard full scholarships also will often reserve one for you as a JD-PhD as a favor to your department, as long as you're not too far off the normal qualifications for these.

If not doing a joint degree right now, these are the financial possibilities I know of:

1) Little or no debt

2) LRAP that covers PhD years and other low-earning academic years, as explained by the poster above me

3) Loans are deferred and do not accumulate interest

4) Loans are deferred and accumulate interest during some or all of the 6+ years you're earning the PhD

5) PLSF?

For #2, as far as I know, only Yale and Harvard are in this category. Notably, Stanford's LRAP is very academia-unfriendly.

For #1, a number of schools explicitly or in practice favor academia-oriented and interdisciplinary people for the big scholarships--off the top of my head, NYU Furman, Penn Levy, various others.

For #3-4, you need to have a long chat with the financial aid office of every school you're seriously considering. Small policy variations will make a big difference for you.

#5: Honestly, I have not looked into this and can't say much about whether and how it can help you here.

Some of this stuff it just won't be possible to figure out for sure until you're admitted and you see what they're offering. This is an uncommon enough path that the policies may not be set in stone, are unlikely to be clearly laid out on the website, and may not even be well-known to the first person you talk with. Apply broadly and be prepared to do a bunch of research in the winter and spring.

I do want to make a pitch for putting yourself in #2 or especially #1 if at all possible. To have the best shot at academia, you need to be able and willing to move multiple times to fairly arbitrary locations and operate through many years of lower income. Big debt is a real obstacle in this and may reduce your likelihood of ultimately ending up in academia more than would the slightly diminished placement power of a lower-ranked school, as long as you're staying in the group of schools that regularly produce academics. And also as long as you're choosing a school where there are faculty in your area who are likely open to working with you--if you're comfortable talking about your potential research at this point, you should definitely get in touch with faculty in both the law school and in your department of interest once you're admitted and deciding.

Anyway, good luck, OP, and feel free to PM me if you want to chat more about JDs and PhDs.

[Elston Gunn]

For #2, as far as I know, only Yale and Harvard are in this category. Notably, Stanford's LRAP is very academia-unfriendly.

Yale's does not cover PhDs.