Financial Aid for Canadians Forum

[listed101]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before... but I've searched the forums and can't seem to find anything all that helpful on this topic.

I'm a Canadian undergrad interested in applying to a few T-14 schools in the near future, and I'm just wondering as to how the whole financial aid process works for Canadians. Are we subsumed under the international category - or do some schools treat our applications pretty much the same as Americans?

I understand that need-based aid only really exists at HYS, while the rest of the T-14 schools only really give out merit-based scholarships. But how exactly does the whole loan process work for Canadians given that we're not eligible for U.S federal financial aid and require a U.S citizen cosigner for U.S lenders? Do most Canadians just take out loans from Canadian banks? I was under the impression that most Canadian banks cut it off at like $30,000 mark or something like that...

Given that I come from a (piss) poor family (and have relied on work, provincial loans and scholarships to pay for school), should I just rule out going to the U.S if I'm unable to get into HYS or obtain any kind of substantial merit-based aid?

Any advice/insight from fellow Canadians would be very much appreciated.

Sidenote: I understand that the law market is incredibly saturated in the U.S and that I'm better off going to the University of Toronto, Osgoode etc. but this is more a matter of the fact that I can't see myself living in Canada for the rest of my life and that I would rather have a career/live in the U.S.

[esther0123]

Someone else could jump in and comment if my information is wrong, but this was my experience:

You can get some mixture of need-based and merit-based financial package in the rest of T14 outside of HYS. But I think with the exception of H and Y, no other law school offers institutional loan and ergo, you have to get private loans from banks.

FYI, it's usually around max. 80K for law degree for most Canadian banks WITH co-signer if you are taking this money outside of Canada. You could also tap into your provincial student loan, whose cap depends on which province you're from. You can take these provincial loan internationally, but only ONCE during your education.... this is my understanding.

You could ask for Co-signer exemption, and I never really went down this road so I can't comment on how successful this is. This depends on your bank and how well-known your law school is in the eyes of Canadian banks.

[listed101]

Someone else could jump in and comment if my information is wrong, but this was my experience:

You can get some mixture of need-based and merit-based financial package in the rest of T14 outside of HYS. But I think with the exception of H and Y, no other law school offers institutional loan and ergo, you have to get private loans from banks.

FYI, it's usually around max. 80K for law degree for most Canadian banks WITH co-signer if you are taking this money outside of Canada. You could also tap into your provincial student loan, whose cap depends on which province you're from. You can take these provincial loan internationally, but only ONCE during your education.... this is my understanding.

You could ask for Co-signer exemption, and I never really went down this road so I can't comment on how successful this is. This depends on your bank and how well-known your law school is in the eyes of Canadian banks.

Thank you! That was incredibly helpful.

[redsox]

Are we subsumed under the international category - or do some schools treat our applications pretty much the same as Americans?

You guys are international, aren't you? Don't you have your own socialist state to leach off of? If you want our financial aid, become states and give us your oil. And poutine. And maple syrup.

[listed101]

Are we subsumed under the international category - or do some schools treat our applications pretty much the same as Americans?

You guys are international, aren't you? Don't you have your own socialist state to leach off of? If you want our financial aid, become states and give us your oil. And poutine. And maple syrup.

Provincial loans have a cut off mark, nothing close to what would I would require on a yearly basis.
And you forgot beavertails and BaCoN.

[redsox]

Provincial loans have a cut off mark, nothing close to what would I would require on a yearly basis.
And you forgot beavertails and BaCoN.

See, if your universities charged higher tuition, like ours, your loan cutoffs would be higher. Fools!

[listed101]

Provincial loans have a cut off mark, nothing close to what would I would require on a yearly basis.
And you forgot beavertails and BaCoN.

See, if your universities charged higher tuition, like ours, your loan cutoffs would be higher. Fools!

Exactly! Damn Canada's socialist tendencies! Free healthcare, low-tuition... it's all terrible, really.

[sighsigh]

but this is more a matter of the fact that I can't see myself living in Canada for the rest of my life and that I would rather have a career/live in the U.S.

May I ask why? I view Canada as basically like the U.S. except without a lot of the bad stuff.

[Phil Brooks]

Hi,

Canadian here at T-14 non-HYS. You will get very little need-based aid from non-HYS (I cannot comment on HYS). If you truly have no parental aid, then many things need to work out. It is good that you are inquiring about this now rather than going in blindly.

Keep in mind that you need to show $70k in liquid funds before getting your visa to attend the school.

Here is one approach you can take:

-Professional Student Line of Credit (PSLOC) is CAD 80k total. Provincial loan around CAD 6500 per year.

-This gives you around $100k. If you can get firm jobs both summers, that's another $30k. That leaves a $90k shortfall.

-[OPTIONAL: Most of the T-14 schools have undergraduate language houses. If you speak French (coming from a bilingual country), you can be an RA in those houses for two or three years and save another $20-$30k.]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

[listed101]

Hi,

Canadian here at T-14 non-HYS. You will get very little need-based aid from non-HYS (I cannot comment on HYS). If you truly have no parental aid, then many things need to work out. It is good that you are inquiring about this now rather than going in blindly.

Keep in mind that you need to show $70k in liquid funds before getting your visa to attend the school.

Here is one approach you can take:

-Professional Student Line of Credit (PSLOC) is CAD 80k total. Provincial loan around CAD 6500 per year.

-This gives you around $100k. If you can get firm jobs both summers, that's another $30k. That leaves a $90k shortfall.

-[OPTIONAL: Most of the T-14 schools have undergraduate language houses. If you speak French (coming from a bilingual country), you can be an RA in those houses for two or three years and save another $20-$30k.]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

Thank you so much for your reply, that was incredibly helpful.

[loveduck]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

I was wondering how your friend leveraged U of T/Osgoode to get a scholarship. I'm a Canadian deciding between CCN and U of T this cycle and I'd love the deets (feel free to PM).

Thanks!

[loveduck]

Also, I think Scotiabank has raised the limit on their professional student line of credit to 100k for law school but they require you to close all other credit accounts.

[admiringatticus]

Hi,

Canadian here at T-14 non-HYS. You will get very little need-based aid from non-HYS (I cannot comment on HYS). If you truly have no parental aid, then many things need to work out. It is good that you are inquiring about this now rather than going in blindly.

Keep in mind that you need to show $70k in liquid funds before getting your visa to attend the school.

Here is one approach you can take:

-Professional Student Line of Credit (PSLOC) is CAD 80k total. Provincial loan around CAD 6500 per year.

-This gives you around $100k. If you can get firm jobs both summers, that's another $30k. That leaves a $90k shortfall.

-[OPTIONAL: Most of the T-14 schools have undergraduate language houses. If you speak French (coming from a bilingual country), you can be an RA in those houses for two or three years and save another $20-$30k.]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

When you say $70k in liquid funds, you are counting the professional line of credit as part of that right?

[Phil Brooks]

Hi,

Canadian here at T-14 non-HYS. You will get very little need-based aid from non-HYS (I cannot comment on HYS). If you truly have no parental aid, then many things need to work out. It is good that you are inquiring about this now rather than going in blindly.

Keep in mind that you need to show $70k in liquid funds before getting your visa to attend the school.

Here is one approach you can take:

-Professional Student Line of Credit (PSLOC) is CAD 80k total. Provincial loan around CAD 6500 per year.

-This gives you around $100k. If you can get firm jobs both summers, that's another $30k. That leaves a $90k shortfall.

-[OPTIONAL: Most of the T-14 schools have undergraduate language houses. If you speak French (coming from a bilingual country), you can be an RA in those houses for two or three years and save another $20-$30k.]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

When you say $70k in liquid funds, you are counting the professional line of credit as part of that right?

Yes. Although the professional line of credit lets you take out only $28k per year.

If your parents have their own line of credit with a credit limit over $42k left in it, you can show that.

[Phil Brooks]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

I was wondering how your friend leveraged U of T/Osgoode to get a scholarship. I'm a Canadian deciding between CCN and U of T this cycle and I'd love the deets (feel free to PM).

Thanks!

I was a bit misleading. You need a U of T/Osgoode admission AND another hook to make the school really want you.

He was an URM and a national moot court champion with an undergrad business degree. The T-14 school as a result wanted him. He told them he could just go for half the cost to U of T. The T-14 gave him $60k as a result. The remaining $30k to cover the shortfall came from his parents.

The problem for us Canadians is that we are not naturally acculturated to this law school negotiation process, because in Canada there is a strict hierarchy of schools. The highest ranked school you get into won't care that you're getting money from other schools, because those other schools will be much lower ranked.

But in the US, by contrast there are legitimate peer schools (CCNPMV etc.), whom you can play off each other to get money.

[Phil Brooks]

-Your best bet to cover the remaining shortfall is to get a very good LSAT score, get into UofT/Osgoode, and then use those admissions to negotiate with the T-14 you get into. My friend did that to get a huge scholarship.

Good luck.

I was wondering how your friend leveraged U of T/Osgoode to get a scholarship. I'm a Canadian deciding between CCN and U of T this cycle and I'd love the deets (feel free to PM).

Thanks!

Also, not that it's my place, but I want to stress how difficult it will be to go back across the border from US to Canada with an American law degree. If you want to practice in Canada right after graduation, go to U of T.

Only go to an American law school if you want to practice in America long-term.

[drawstring]

Also, not that it's my place, but I want to stress how difficult it will be to go back across the border from US to Canada with an American law degree. If you want to practice in Canada right after graduation, go to U of T.

Only go to an American law school if you want to practice in America long-term.

x1000

I know a few people who wanted to go to the US just for HYS and then come right back to Canada, but it's generally a horrible idea given how arduous the process is and the lower salaries to repay (usually) much greater debt. I imagine those people have no idea what the implications of getting a US degree are for practicing in Canada.

[sighsigh]

The problem for us Canadians is that we are not naturally acculturated to this law school negotiation process, because in Canada there is a strict hierarchy of schools. The highest ranked school you get into won't care that you're getting money from other schools, because those other schools will be much lower ranked.

But in the US, by contrast there are legitimate peer schools (CCNPMV etc.), whom you can play off each other to get money.

That's pretty debatable. Are you saying e.g. Osgoode, Queen's, and Western aren't peer schools? Because I'd say they totally are.

The real reason Canadian schools won't fight for your attendence [that much] by using $$$ as enticement is because there is no USNWR-equivalent in Canada. This means that the emphasis placed on maximizing LSAT and GPA medians is nowhere near as great in Canada. It also allows Canadian schools to be far more holistic.

[admiringatticus]

Yes. Although the professional line of credit lets you take out only $28k per year.

This isn't actually true. Some of the banks advertise guidelines for international students with professional lines of credit but then approve more than that. If anyone is searching for one of these options, I just went through it and got approved, so feel free to PM me.

[drawstring]

The problem for us Canadians is that we are not naturally acculturated to this law school negotiation process, because in Canada there is a strict hierarchy of schools. The highest ranked school you get into won't care that you're getting money from other schools, because those other schools will be much lower ranked.

But in the US, by contrast there are legitimate peer schools (CCNPMV etc.), whom you can play off each other to get money.

That's pretty debatable. Are you saying e.g. Osgoode, Queen's, and Western aren't peer schools? Because I'd say they totally are.

The real reason Canadian schools won't fight for your attendence [that much] by using $$$ as enticement is because there is no USNWR-equivalent in Canada. This means that the emphasis placed on maximizing LSAT and GPA medians is nowhere near as great in Canada. It also allows Canadian schools to be far more holistic.

Are they really more holistic on the whole, or do they just have a smaller talent pool, and hence lower medians? Obviously this is anecdotal, but the experience of many of my friends doesn't suggest that Canadian schools are much more holistic than US schools are.

[admiringatticus]

The problem for us Canadians is that we are not naturally acculturated to this law school negotiation process, because in Canada there is a strict hierarchy of schools. The highest ranked school you get into won't care that you're getting money from other schools, because those other schools will be much lower ranked.

But in the US, by contrast there are legitimate peer schools (CCNPMV etc.), whom you can play off each other to get money.

That's pretty debatable. Are you saying e.g. Osgoode, Queen's, and Western aren't peer schools? Because I'd say they totally are.

The real reason Canadian schools won't fight for your attendence [that much] by using $$$ as enticement is because there is no USNWR-equivalent in Canada. This means that the emphasis placed on maximizing LSAT and GPA medians is nowhere near as great in Canada. It also allows Canadian schools to be far more holistic.

Are they really more holistic on the whole, or do they just have a smaller talent pool, and hence lower medians? Obviously this is anecdotal, but the experience of many of my friends doesn't suggest that Canadian schools are much more holistic than US schools are.

I think this is true. In the regular admission categories, admission at Canadian schools is purely numbers based. Once you pass a certain number on the index, you are guaranteed admission. UBC and UVic I know for sure function this way.

[Phil Brooks]

The problem for us Canadians is that we are not naturally acculturated to this law school negotiation process, because in Canada there is a strict hierarchy of schools. The highest ranked school you get into won't care that you're getting money from other schools, because those other schools will be much lower ranked.

But in the US, by contrast there are legitimate peer schools (CCNPMV etc.), whom you can play off each other to get money.

That's pretty debatable. Are you saying e.g. Osgoode, Queen's, and Western aren't peer schools? Because I'd say they totally are.

The real reason Canadian schools won't fight for your attendence [that much] by using $$$ as enticement is because there is no USNWR-equivalent in Canada. This means that the emphasis placed on maximizing LSAT and GPA medians is nowhere near as great in Canada. It also allows Canadian schools to be far more holistic.

You may be right, but the sense I get from lawstudents.ca is that there is a distinct hierarchy.

[sighsigh]

Are they really more holistic on the whole, or do they just have a smaller talent pool, and hence lower medians? Obviously this is anecdotal, but the experience of many of my friends doesn't suggest that Canadian schools are much more holistic than US schools are.

I think this is true. In the regular admission categories, admission at Canadian schools are purely numbers based. Once you pass a certain number on the index, you are guaranteed admission. UBC and UVic I know for sure function this way.

The BC schools are kind of exceptions, actually. They are even more numbers-focused than US schools, for some reason.

Lots of people get into Canadian schools on numbers alone, but there are also many applicants with stats that are way below both GPA and LSAT entering medians and get in based on ECs, work experience, upwards trends, etc. And there's a few schools like UToronto or McGill which do put a lot of weight on holistic factors for every applicant.

[crazycanuck]

The problem for us Canadians is that we are not naturally acculturated to this law school negotiation process, because in Canada there is a strict hierarchy of schools. The highest ranked school you get into won't care that you're getting money from other schools, because those other schools will be much lower ranked.

But in the US, by contrast there are legitimate peer schools (CCNPMV etc.), whom you can play off each other to get money.

That's pretty debatable. Are you saying e.g. Osgoode, Queen's, and Western aren't peer schools? Because I'd say they totally are.

The real reason Canadian schools won't fight for your attendence [that much] by using $$$ as enticement is because there is no USNWR-equivalent in Canada. This means that the emphasis placed on maximizing LSAT and GPA medians is nowhere near as great in Canada. It also allows Canadian schools to be far more holistic.

Are they really more holistic on the whole, or do they just have a smaller talent pool, and hence lower medians? Obviously this is anecdotal, but the experience of many of my friends doesn't suggest that Canadian schools are much more holistic than US schools are.

Yes they are. Different schooled weight gpa and LSAT differently. Wen I was considering law school uvic considered gpa 70% and LSAT 30% and Alberta did the reverse when calculation a score. Some schools also allow students to drop a few of their worst grades while others don't.

And what is this ranking nonsense? Do people den read the macleans rankings and do those people care? The "big law" firms in Canada tend to hire pretty regionally and the Bay Street firms are pretty well represented from all schools. Furthermore I don't know any lawyers whose firms discriminate by schools terrible much. In Vancouver they like uvic and UBC in Ontario they like those schools.

And OP, only go this deep into debt if you are 150% sure you want to stay in USA. It will become almost impossible to get back.

[drawstring]

Yes they are. Different schooled weight gpa and LSAT differently. Wen I was considering law school uvic considered gpa 70% and LSAT 30% and Alberta did the reverse when calculation a score.

Is this really more holistic though? A different weighting of numbers is still about numbers.

I know you decided against top schools in the US. Do you mind sharing some of the reasons behind your decision and do you think you would've done the same if your employment prospects in Canada weren't that good?

Thanks