,, Forum

[dingbat]

They are going to be lower paying initially for smaller firms and lower paying for government positions as well. But with a total yearly nondiscounted COA of around $35,000, the salary isnt as important. LSU grads dont need biglaw to pay off loans for the most part.

1) I originally responded to claims that $50K/yr was attainable from lower-ranking lower schools. You responded with data ambiguous to that claim. Now you're claiming that "salary isn't important", when salary is what I was originally addressing.

2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.

Also, louisiana doesnt really have full time PD gigs outside of Orleans Parish. The public defense system is a travesty there. Its gotten better since katrina though. If someone wants to be a PD, I would recommend a state that actually has a solid PD system for work.

The PD system there is a travesty. I've worked there. That's exactly why I can say with authority that those jobs pay less than $50K and that job market is shrinking. My point wasn't that I wanted to be a PD, though. It was giving one valid example of how full-time jobs in LA won't be $50K or higher. I'm not going to research an exhaustive list, but my original and valid point was that LSU grads, emerging with over $100K debt in many cases, aren't assured a salary high enough to service that debt and live comfortably even if they find legal employment in the state.

Yes, I do realize that. However, the average total debt load is lower. I think last i looked it was $65,000 or something on average. Some get scholarships, some dont. Ill look that up and link it later. Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.


Edit: i looked up total COA for a LSU resident. Its right at 100,000. So thats right at six figures not over six figures. Also, not everyone will be paying sticker. Again, the last average i saw was 65,000 but dont remember exactly. And yes, if you really do want to practice law, its not easy, but under 100,000 to me IS manageable. It depends on what goals that person has in life (wanting a family, travel, etc). Obviously it wont be acceptable for others. And for me, that much debt is irrelevant anyway.

So is it better to have a total COA of $250k and hoping to get a job that pays $160k, or is it better to have a total COA of $100k and hoping to get a job that pays $50k?

[spleenworship]

Yes, I do realize that. However, the average total debt load is lower. I think last i looked it was $65,000 or something on average. Some get scholarships, some dont. Ill look that up and link it later. Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.


Edit: i looked up total COA for a LSU resident. Its right at 100,000. So thats right at six figures not over six figures. Also, not everyone will be paying sticker. Again, the last average i saw was 65,000 but dont remember exactly. And yes, if you really do want to practice law, its not easy, but under 100,000 to me IS manageable. It depends on what goals that person has in life (wanting a family, travel, etc). Obviously it wont be acceptable for others. And for me, that much debt is irrelevant anyway.

So is it better to have a total COA of $250k and hoping to get a job that pays $160k, or is it better to have a total COA of $100k and hoping to get a job that pays $50k?

I would guess it depends on how likely you are to get that job. If the person with 250k debt has a 1 in 3 chance of getting the 160k job is that really better than the person with 100K debt who has a 2 in 3 chance of getting the 50k a year job? The first has to worry they will be one of the 2/3 of their class who makes 50K servicing the 250K, the second has to worry they are the 1/3 of their class who makes 25K as a barista trying to service 100K.

Honestly, to me, both seem equally screwed right now.

Note: if the 250K debt for 160K job is not some schlub in the T1 but rather some schlub in the T6, then the above comparison is pointless.

[HarlandBassett]

My only advice is to not have children.

[RedBirds2011]

My only advice is to not have children.

Lol this. We have enough people on this planet anyway. CNN or some news outlet, I cant remember, estimated that a single child today costs around $245,000. Thats how much it "costs" to have a kid. Think about that for awhile...

[spleenworship]

My only advice is to not have children.

Lol this. We have enough people on this planet anyway. CNN or some news outlet, I cant remember, estimated that a single child today costs around $245,000. Thats how much it "costs" to have a kid. Think about that for awhile...

And I have two.

[RedBirds2011]

My only advice is to not have children.

Lol this. We have enough people on this planet anyway. CNN or some news outlet, I cant remember, estimated that a single child today costs around $245,000. Thats how much it "costs" to have a kid. Think about that for awhile...

And I have two.

Oh man lol And much like law school debt, you cant really discharge a kid in bankruptcy but nonetheless, I am sure you see those two tikes as being worth it

[HarlandBassett]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

^ This. You guys know that you can still get a job after big law kicks you to the curb, right?

is there a thread on the breakdown of biglaw defect rates? who was forced out and who was self-selected out?

[IAFG]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

^ This. You guys know that you can still get a job after big law kicks you to the curb, right?

is there a thread on the breakdown of biglaw defect rates? who was forced out and who was self-selected out?

How on earth would you ever collect reliable information on that?

But it's not like people who are forced out end up waiting tables.

[androstan]

16 pages in response to someone planning to go into biglaw and use IBR to pay off his student loans? Who apparently insists upon paying twice the rent s/he has to, and apparently includes the cost of hookers under "food and essentials."

[rayiner]

There was a great longitudinal study a few years ago:

News blurb: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... onahan.htm
Actual study: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/manus ... wanson.pdf

It's based on a retrospective study of UVA C/O 1990. Arguably the legal field was different back then, but it wasn't so dramatically different. The C/O 1990 folks were early Gen X-ers. There were 36,000 law grads for $8 trillion of real GDP (1 lawyer per $222m GDP), versus 44,000 last year for $13 trillion in real GDP (1 lawyer per $295m GDP). Cravath was paying an inflation-adjusted ~$130-150k in NYC.

C/O 1990 also graduated into a recession, and the troubles of the legal field in the early 1990s were not outdone until the 2008 recession. Latham, of course, Latham-ed a whole bunch of people in 1990: http://abovethelaw.com/2008/09/back-to- ... fs-in-1990.

Yet 81% of respondents reported being satisfied with their choice to become lawyers.

[jurisx]

There was a great longitudinal study a few years ago:

News blurb: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... onahan.htm
Actual study: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/manus ... wanson.pdf

It's based on a retrospective study of UVA C/O 1990. Arguably the legal field was different back then, but it wasn't so dramatically different. The C/O 1990 folks were early Gen X-ers. There were 36,000 law grads for $8 trillion of real GDP (1 lawyer per $222m GDP), versus 44,000 last year for $13 trillion in real GDP (1 lawyer per $295m GDP). Cravath was paying an inflation-adjusted ~$130-150k in NYC.

C/O 1990 also graduated into a recession, and the troubles of the legal field in the early 1990s were not outdone until the 2008 recession. Latham, of course, Latham-ed a whole bunch of people in 1990: http://abovethelaw.com/2008/09/back-to- ... fs-in-1990.

Yet 81% of respondents reported being satisfied with their choice to become lawyers.

and the other 19% make up 99% of internet posts since the 81% have a life worth living.
Gotta love the internet. "but all the posters say (blah)"

[sunynp]

There was a great longitudinal study a few years ago:

News blurb: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... onahan.htm
Actual study: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/manus ... wanson.pdf

It's based on a retrospective study of UVA C/O 1990. Arguably the legal field was different back then, but it wasn't so dramatically different. The C/O 1990 folks were early Gen X-ers. There were 36,000 law grads for $8 trillion of real GDP (1 lawyer per $222m GDP), versus 44,000 last year for $13 trillion in real GDP (1 lawyer per $295m GDP). Cravath was paying an inflation-adjusted ~$130-150k in NYC.

C/O 1990 also graduated into a recession, and the troubles of the legal field in the early 1990s were not outdone until the 2008 recession. Latham, of course, Latham-ed a whole bunch of people in 1990: http://abovethelaw.com/2008/09/back-to- ... fs-in-1990.

Yet 81% of respondents reported being satisfied with their choice to become lawyers.

What was tuition 22 years ago? I don't think students were graduating with such huge amount of debt in 1990. And I think biglaw salaries were comparably high then as well. Plus there were midlaw firms that hadn't been merged out of existence yet.

I can find the 1990 tuition of various schools ,but I haven't found a comprehensive list of the tuition in 1990. Here is a random list of a few that came up quickly on google search.

Penn : Law Tuition: $15,066
Michigan: 1989-1990 $3,107/semester (resident) $6,441/semester (non-resident)
Hastings: 1991-02 (didnt have 1990 exact) $3,161(resident) $10,860 (non-resident)
Texas Tech: 1990-91 (In-State)$3,247 (Out-of-State)$5,947
Harvard Law: $13,400




also this article has some data:
This is my favorite new document. It has a table of in-state and out-of-state tuition for 1983 - 1999-2005
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... cation.pdf
With this quote:

Tuition and fee increases at professional schools have sharply escalated in recent
years, jeopardizing the goal of affordable education for state residents.15 The average
resident tuition at public law schools increased 234% from 1990 to 2003, from $3,236 to $10,820.

[rayiner]

Tuition was definitely lower for C/O 1990, but it wasn't exactly the boomer golden age when you could pay your way through school working on weekends. That tuition and fees at Penn Law still comes out to about $25,000 in today's dollars. Also, financial aid at the top schools was a lot less common than it is today.

Though, UVA's in-state tuition and fees at the time were about $7,000 in today's dollars.

My point was though more about the median income figures, to counter the idea that lawyers go back to waiting tables after big law.

[heeloftar]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

[ToTransferOrNot]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

IBR. And its not like clerks are destitute--depending on location, you make a touch over $60k the first year, and over $70k the second year. If you're disciplined about it, you just put 100% of your clerkship bonus into loans to make up for the lower payments while you were clerking.

[rayiner]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

Mooch off wife.

[timbs4339]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

Some schools will let you go on LRAP. Mine will, but you have to repay the money if you into private practice in two years. Still, they 1) pay the interest during the clerkship, 2) convert the principal they paid down for you into a 5% loan to the school instead of 6.8/7.9% to the gov. Depending on clerkship bonus/total debt you could wind up knocking out your fed loans after 2 years.

[jurisx]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

Mooch off wife.

Why not, its gender equality at it's best.

The real reason dads send their daughters to grad school? To get their MRS degree useing their PhDD's.

No dad wants their daughter getting shacked up with a 7-11 assistant manager who is in a garage band. They want the one that can actually walk and chew gum at the same time without needing to ask his parole officer and/or DHS agent if it is ok first.

Screw it, live it up brother. Knock her up and make the kids love you more, that way if she leaves you she has to pay you child support and alimoney. Keep the house too. (stay at home dad with ten year unemployed resume looks good for free money when she finally quits you for the 25 year hard body with a Pharmacy degree-this is assuming you drive her nuts and she needs lots of hardcore pscotropics as well)

[spleenworship]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

Mooch off wife.

Why not, its gender equality at it's best.

The real reason dads send their daughters to grad school? To get their MRS degree useing their PhDD's.

No dad wants their daughter getting shacked up with a 7-11 assistant manager who is in a garage band. They want the one that can actually walk and chew gum at the same time without needing to ask his parole officer and/or DHS agent if it is ok first.

Screw it, live it up brother. Knock her up and make the kids love you more, that way if she leaves you she has to pay you child support and alimoney. Keep the house too. (stay at home dad with ten year unemployed resume looks good for free money when she finally quits you for the 25 year hard body with a Pharmacy degree-this is assuming you drive her nuts and she needs lots of hardcore pscotropics as well)

You are like, the worst troll... ever.

[jurisx]

Off-topic to a degree, but how do people who spend a year or two in a federal clerkship service their debt during that time?

Mooch off wife.

Why not, its gender equality at it's best.

The real reason dads send their daughters to grad school? To get their MRS degree useing their PhDD's.

No dad wants their daughter getting shacked up with a 7-11 assistant manager who is in a garage band. They want the one that can actually walk and chew gum at the same time without needing to ask his parole officer and/or DHS agent if it is ok first.

Screw it, live it up brother. Knock her up and make the kids love you more, that way if she leaves you she has to pay you child support and alimoney. Keep the house too. (stay at home dad with ten year unemployed resume looks good for free money when she finally quits you for the 25 year hard body with a Pharmacy degree-this is assuming you drive her nuts and she needs lots of hardcore pscotropics as well)

You are like, the worst troll... ever.

yeah, never seen a leach spouse in my life.........never seen a BF would slept all day on the couch and drank beer..............or a trophy wife who cheated.............crazy talk.

[rayiner]

Mooch off wife.

Why not, its gender equality at it's best.

The real reason dads send their daughters to grad school? To get their MRS degree useing their PhDD's.

No dad wants their daughter getting shacked up with a 7-11 assistant manager who is in a garage band. They want the one that can actually walk and chew gum at the same time without needing to ask his parole officer and/or DHS agent if it is ok first.

Screw it, live it up brother. Knock her up and make the kids love you more, that way if she leaves you she has to pay you child support and alimoney. Keep the house too. (stay at home dad with ten year unemployed resume looks good for free money when she finally quits you for the 25 year hard body with a Pharmacy degree-this is assuming you drive her nuts and she needs lots of hardcore pscotropics as well)

You are like, the worst troll... ever.

yeah, never seen a leach spouse in my life.........never seen a BF would slept all day on the couch and drank beer..............or a trophy wife who cheated.............crazy talk.

Sleeping all day on the couch as a federal clerk?

[jurisx]

I was giving examples of why the mooching off wife would be acceptable in contrast to what wives disproportionately do to husbands.

[Honey_Badger]

Tuition was definitely lower for C/O 1990, but it wasn't exactly the boomer golden age when you could pay your way through school working on weekends. That tuition and fees at Penn Law still comes out to about $25,000 in today's dollars. Also, financial aid at the top schools was a lot less common than it is today.

Though, UVA's in-state tuition and fees at the time were about $7,000 in today's dollars.

My point was though more about the median income figures, to counter the idea that lawyers go back to waiting tables after big law.

I know I'm showing my age, but this comment gave me an Emilio Estevez-law-student-weekend-waiter-at-St.-Elmo's flashback...

[IAFG]

I was giving examples of why the mooching off wife would be acceptable in contrast to what wives disproportionately do to husbands.

So... You were launching into an off-topic rant for no reason? Take it to r/mensrights.

[rayiner]

Jurisx has a tiny, pink, dick.