After all the negative press, GWU's dean was like "Oh, nvm, we'll keep it at $15."manofjustice wrote:Ha. Try 15 bucks an hour...going to 10. (But I think you knew that...)
Tso generous.
After all the negative press, GWU's dean was like "Oh, nvm, we'll keep it at $15."manofjustice wrote:Ha. Try 15 bucks an hour...going to 10. (But I think you knew that...)
1) I originally responded to claims that $50K/yr was attainable from lower-ranking lower schools. You responded with data ambiguous to that claim. Now you're claiming that "salary isn't important", when salary is what I was originally addressing.RedBirds2011 wrote:They are going to be lower paying initially for smaller firms and lower paying for government positions as well. But with a total yearly nondiscounted COA of around $35,000, the salary isnt as important. LSU grads dont need biglaw to pay off loans for the most part.
The PD system there is a travesty. I've worked there. That's exactly why I can say with authority that those jobs pay less than $50K and that job market is shrinking. My point wasn't that I wanted to be a PD, though. It was giving one valid example of how full-time jobs in LA won't be $50K or higher. I'm not going to research an exhaustive list, but my original and valid point was that LSU grads, emerging with over $100K debt in many cases, aren't assured a salary high enough to service that debt and live comfortably even if they find legal employment in the state.RedBirds2011 wrote:Also, louisiana doesnt really have full time PD gigs outside of Orleans Parish. The public defense system is a travesty there. Its gotten better since katrina though. If someone wants to be a PD, I would recommend a state that actually has a solid PD system for work.
vanwinkle wrote:1) I originally responded to claims that $50K/yr was attainable from lower-ranking lower schools. You responded with data ambiguous to that claim. Now you're claiming that "salary isn't important", when salary is what I was originally addressing.RedBirds2011 wrote:They are going to be lower paying initially for smaller firms and lower paying for government positions as well. But with a total yearly nondiscounted COA of around $35,000, the salary isnt as important. LSU grads dont need biglaw to pay off loans for the most part.
2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.
The PD system there is a travesty. I've worked there. That's exactly why I can say with authority that those jobs pay less than $50K and that job market is shrinking. My point wasn't that I wanted to be a PD, though. It was giving one valid example of how full-time jobs in LA won't be $50K or higher. I'm not going to research an exhaustive list, but my original and valid point was that LSU grads, emerging with over $100K debt in many cases, aren't assured a salary high enough to service that debt and live comfortably even if they find legal employment in the state.RedBirds2011 wrote:Also, louisiana doesnt really have full time PD gigs outside of Orleans Parish. The public defense system is a travesty there. Its gotten better since katrina though. If someone wants to be a PD, I would recommend a state that actually has a solid PD system for work.
How many LSU grads actually pay the $35k though? A fair number will have schollys, others will work part time for a local firm for living expenses, others will live with parents or have parents pay for some or all of living expenses. That's what is happening at my T2 with a similar COA... I'd say less than a quarter of the students actually pay full price, and as much as 25% of my classmates go to school essentially for free between parents and part time work. If your point is that some people will go to LSU will make a bad investment, probably true. But hell, outside the T14 how is that not true for every school?vanwinkle wrote:
2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.
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Quite the meaningful distinction.RedBirds2011 wrote:So thats right at six figures not over six figures.
Well, in that case, can you lend me $100k? But make sure it's exactly $100k, I wouldn't want you to go over six figures.RedBirds2011 wrote:that much debt is irrelevant anyway.
InGoodFaith wrote:Quite the meaningful distinction.RedBirds2011 wrote:So thats right at six figures not over six figures.
Well, in that case, can you lend me $100k? But make sure it's exactly $100k, I wouldn't want you to go over six figures.RedBirds2011 wrote:that much debt is irrelevant anyway.
Another meaningful distinction.RedBirds2011 wrote:I never said 100,000 was irrelevant. I said it was irrelevant to me.
InGoodFaith wrote:Another meaningful distinction.RedBirds2011 wrote:I never said 100,000 was irrelevant. I said it was irrelevant to me.
Also, I'll be attending a T2 on scholarship this fall as well, so TYIA for dropping the pious bullshit.
spleenworship wrote:How many LSU grads actually pay the $35k though? A fair number will have schollys, others will work part time for a local firm for living expenses, others will live with parents or have parents pay for some or all of living expenses. That's what is happening at my T2 with a similar COA... I'd say less than a quarter of the students actually pay full price, and as much as 25% of my classmates go to school essentially for free between parents and part time work. If your point is that some people will go to LSU will make a bad investment, probably true. But hell, outside the T14 how is that not true for every school?vanwinkle wrote:
2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.
Obviously, scholarships change things, for those who get them. But once again, you're shifting the facts around; we weren't talking about people on scholarships a minute ago, we were talking about people paying the full $35K/yr COA, and those people are going to be knee-deep in debt with poor prospects of paying work. A lot of people will get $0 in scholarships or close to it; those who get full rides obviously have better finances no matter where they're going.RedBirds2011 wrote:Yes, I do realize that. However, the average total debt load is lower. I think last i looked it was $65,000 or something on average. Some get scholarships, some dont.
No, your income won't remain static. You could get small raises each year; PI jobs don't typically offer large raises unless you get a promotion, though, and openings for managing attorneys are both coveted by staff attorneys and fewer than staff attorneys wanting them. Also, these days, a lot of PI orgs have been living under wage freezes; I have worked with attorneys who haven't gotten a raise at all in 2-3 years.RedBirds2011 wrote:Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.
I mentioned $105K. Are you really saying $5K is a big difference when it is six figures either way?RedBirds2011 wrote:Edit: i looked up total COA for a LSU resident. Its right at 100,000. So thats right at six figures not over six figures.
No, but many will, and many will also get scholarships that only reduce that by 10-20% and still leave them with significant debt. I'd also like to note this thread is about graduating with $200K in loans; a lot of people's concern are those who aren't getting scholarships that want to attend anyway, no matter where they go. LSU makes no sense to attend purely on loans at $105K debt right now.RedBirds2011 wrote:Also, not everyone will be paying sticker.
If you're taking scholarships and will graduate with little debt, then good for you. That's not the type of person I think is making a huge mistake, at least you're minimizing your debt. Those who are "paying out the ass" no matter where they go. At LSU, going with large scholarships is not bad, my concern is mainly for those who have signed up to pay $105K or close to it, plus interest (which will push that far higher, at today's loan rates). They'll be in far greater financial trouble than you. And IBR tax-free loan forgiveness doesn't help them if they can't find PI work, which in this job market is at least possible.RedBirds2011 wrote:Ultimately, I am just pissed off today and ill get over it. Some moron IRL started trying to convince me I was stupid for going to the school I am at even though I am graduating wth little debt and the ABA placement data/LST actually suggests my classmates are in a better position than his are. First off, it is not any of his fucking business at ALL. Also, he goes to a higher ranked school and is paying out the ass for very subpar prospects. Maybe this should just be in the rant thread.
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Not to mention that your COL goes up every year, due to inflation. I worked in state government for three years and didn't get a single raise due to budget freezes and then was laid off. If your salary is frozen, you are actually making less and less as COL increases, so you have to get raises just to stay even.vanwinkle wrote:No, your income won't remain static. You could get small raises each year; PI jobs don't typically offer large raises unless you get a promotion, though, and openings for managing attorneys are both coveted by staff attorneys and fewer than staff attorneys wanting them. Also, these days, a lot of PI orgs have been living under wage freezes; I have worked with attorneys who haven't gotten a raise at all in 2-3 years.RedBirds2011 wrote:Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.
Also, the pendulum swings both ways. You could be fired. You could be laid off through no fault of your own, too. As I just noted, the OPD were reducing staff. I've worked in PI orgs in different states that have seen such massive budget problems recently that they've had to lay off significant numbers of staff attorneys. This was considered unthinkable until a few years ago, PI jobs were considered "safe", but they're not.
It is possible for your income to change, but because it could stay largely the same or go up or down significantly and you can't predict that in advance, you shouldn't assume anything.
Fairly useless without the italicized.blsingindisguise wrote:Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/
It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.
Your point about COL is solid, but people in this thread need to see this even more. The idea that PI is a stable/safe job you can keep is false, and a lot of people just assume things will be okay because they'll find a PI job and then be "fine". Even if you get the job, you're not safe.Samara wrote:I worked in state government for three years and didn't get a single raise due to budget freezes and then was laid off.
And if you want to work in the prosecutor's office, it's even worse. I know that in my former city of residence (top 25 in terms of size), when the incumbent party lost the prosecutor race, the new guy cleaned house, pushing out quite a few attorneys. And believe me, there were more than enough people to fill the void. Even with some political connections going to bat for him, I know a guy who graduated from the area's T2 law school who couldn't get a job there and (last I heard) is still working as a waiter.vanwinkle wrote:Your point about COL is solid, but people in this thread need to see this even more. The idea that PI is a stable/safe job you can keep is false, and a lot of people just assume things will be okay because they'll find a PI job and then be "fine". Even if you get the job, you're not safe.Samara wrote:I worked in state government for three years and didn't get a single raise due to budget freezes and then was laid off.
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Yeah well no offense dude, but I attended a T2 on scholarship too, and you can count on your fingers the number of grads doing that kind of thing from my class year, so I wouldn't get too excited. For biglaw #'s you might actually need to use your hands and feet.InGoodFaith wrote:Fairly useless without the italicized.blsingindisguise wrote:Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/
It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.
why don't we just assume that the people attending at sticker are the ones who get the higher paying jobs? then the problem disappears!vanwinkle wrote:a bunch of like, "logic" and stuff
About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.blsingindisguise wrote:Yeah well no offense dude, but I attended a T2 on scholarship too, and you can count on your fingers the number of grads doing that kind of thing from my class year, so I wouldn't get too excited. For biglaw #'s you might actually need to use your hands and feet.InGoodFaith wrote:Fairly useless without the italicized.blsingindisguise wrote:Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/
It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.
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1) Your school is lying to you.InGoodFaith wrote: About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.
1) Nope, unless LST is lying.blsingindisguise wrote:1) Your school is lying to you.InGoodFaith wrote: About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.
2) State court clerks don't get biglaw.
HTH
you said ranking schools by "% of students who get biglaw" is worthless because it doesn't consider the % of students who clerk. so....InGoodFaith wrote:1) Nope, unless LST is lying.blsingindisguise wrote:1) Your school is lying to you.InGoodFaith wrote: About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.
2) State court clerks don't get biglaw.
HTH
2) I'm not silly enough to believe I will get biglaw out of a T2.
Thanks.
Gotcha. I meant it was silly because just by looking at that data, someone interested in biglaw might unfairly assume that it's better for them to go to USC than Yale.fatduck wrote: you said ranking schools by "% of students who get biglaw" is worthless because it doesn't consider the % of students who clerk. so....
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