,, Forum

[20130312]

Ha. Try 15 bucks an hour...going to 10. (But I think you knew that...)

After all the negative press, GWU's dean was like "Oh, nvm, we'll keep it at $15."

Tso generous.

[RedBirds2011]

Manofjustice, we are talking about LSU. Go to LST and look at LSUs data and then come tell me how screwed most LSU grads are with a COA of $35,000.



Edit: yes, most lsu grads are getting 10-15/hour work if they are lucky. Just stop with the hyperbolic bullshit. Ive lurked this board for over 2 years and so fucking sick of it. The generalizations need to stop. If you want to discuss one specific school with me, fine. But dont apply blanket statements to the entire country.


Last edit: and yes, I am mad lol. I have had people tell me specifically im fucked even though they are going to schools "higher ranked" and are paying literally 6 times more for law school than I am. And on top of this, their higher ranked schools have abysmal employment stats compared to mine to complement their $210,000 price tag. My tolerance has gone down for it and i wont take it anymore damnit lol

[vanwinkle]

They are going to be lower paying initially for smaller firms and lower paying for government positions as well. But with a total yearly nondiscounted COA of around $35,000, the salary isnt as important. LSU grads dont need biglaw to pay off loans for the most part.

1) I originally responded to claims that $50K/yr was attainable from lower-ranking lower schools. You responded with data ambiguous to that claim. Now you're claiming that "salary isn't important", when salary is what I was originally addressing.

2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.

Also, louisiana doesnt really have full time PD gigs outside of Orleans Parish. The public defense system is a travesty there. Its gotten better since katrina though. If someone wants to be a PD, I would recommend a state that actually has a solid PD system for work.

The PD system there is a travesty. I've worked there. That's exactly why I can say with authority that those jobs pay less than $50K and that job market is shrinking. My point wasn't that I wanted to be a PD, though. It was giving one valid example of how full-time jobs in LA won't be $50K or higher. I'm not going to research an exhaustive list, but my original and valid point was that LSU grads, emerging with over $100K debt in many cases, aren't assured a salary high enough to service that debt and live comfortably even if they find legal employment in the state.

[RedBirds2011]

They are going to be lower paying initially for smaller firms and lower paying for government positions as well. But with a total yearly nondiscounted COA of around $35,000, the salary isnt as important. LSU grads dont need biglaw to pay off loans for the most part.

1) I originally responded to claims that $50K/yr was attainable from lower-ranking lower schools. You responded with data ambiguous to that claim. Now you're claiming that "salary isn't important", when salary is what I was originally addressing.

2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.

Also, louisiana doesnt really have full time PD gigs outside of Orleans Parish. The public defense system is a travesty there. Its gotten better since katrina though. If someone wants to be a PD, I would recommend a state that actually has a solid PD system for work.

The PD system there is a travesty. I've worked there. That's exactly why I can say with authority that those jobs pay less than $50K and that job market is shrinking. My point wasn't that I wanted to be a PD, though. It was giving one valid example of how full-time jobs in LA won't be $50K or higher. I'm not going to research an exhaustive list, but my original and valid point was that LSU grads, emerging with over $100K debt in many cases, aren't assured a salary high enough to service that debt and live comfortably even if they find legal employment in the state.

Yes, I do realize that. However, the average total debt load is lower. I think last i looked it was $65,000 or something on average. Some get scholarships, some dont. Ill look that up and link it later. Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.


Edit: i looked up total COA for a LSU resident. Its right at 100,000. So thats right at six figures not over six figures. Also, not everyone will be paying sticker. Again, the last average i saw was 65,000 but dont remember exactly. And yes, if you really do want to practice law, its not easy, but under 100,000 to me IS manageable. It depends on what goals that person has in life (wanting a family, travel, etc). Obviously it wont be acceptable for others. And for me, that much debt is irrelevant anyway.

[spleenworship]

2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.

How many LSU grads actually pay the $35k though? A fair number will have schollys, others will work part time for a local firm for living expenses, others will live with parents or have parents pay for some or all of living expenses. That's what is happening at my T2 with a similar COA... I'd say less than a quarter of the students actually pay full price, and as much as 25% of my classmates go to school essentially for free between parents and part time work. If your point is that some people will go to LSU will make a bad investment, probably true. But hell, outside the T14 how is that not true for every school?

[20130312]

So thats right at six figures not over six figures.

Quite the meaningful distinction.

that much debt is irrelevant anyway.

Well, in that case, can you lend me $100k? But make sure it's exactly $100k, I wouldn't want you to go over six figures.

[RedBirds2011]

So thats right at six figures not over six figures.

Quite the meaningful distinction.

that much debt is irrelevant anyway.

Well, in that case, can you lend me $100k? But make sure it's exactly $100k, I wouldn't want you to go over six figures.

No. I took the scholarship over a higher ranked school with debt. Im sorry you make stupid decisions bro.

Edit: also stop editing my quotes out of context. I never said 100,000 was irrelevant. I said it was irrelevant to me.

[20130312]

I never said 100,000 was irrelevant. I said it was irrelevant to me.

Another meaningful distinction.

Also, I'll be attending a T2 on scholarship this fall as well, so TYIA for dropping the pious bullshit.

[RedBirds2011]

I never said 100,000 was irrelevant. I said it was irrelevant to me.

Another meaningful distinction.

Also, I'll be attending a T2 on scholarship this fall as well, so TYIA for dropping the pious bullshit.

Congratulations then.

Also, yea it is a VERY meaningful distinction on both counts. The difference between 100,000 and 150,000, for example, is a huge difference. Also it being irrelevant to me also is VERY meaningful because I am not 100,000 dollars in debt. And the only reason i said the above was because i dont like you. I dont need any other reason.

[RedBirds2011]

2) That's yearly COA of $35K. You do realize that's still causing people to graduate six figures in debt, right? 35,000 x 3 = over 100K in debt. You do need a significant salary to repay that much debt, and since you conceded you can't say these grads are making over $50K (the originally claimed significant salary) it seems you should agree yourself that LSU is a potentially terrible investment.

How many LSU grads actually pay the $35k though? A fair number will have schollys, others will work part time for a local firm for living expenses, others will live with parents or have parents pay for some or all of living expenses. That's what is happening at my T2 with a similar COA... I'd say less than a quarter of the students actually pay full price, and as much as 25% of my classmates go to school essentially for free between parents and part time work. If your point is that some people will go to LSU will make a bad investment, probably true. But hell, outside the T14 how is that not true for every school?

And +1 to this. I just saw it.

[RedBirds2011]

Ultimately, I am just pissed off today and ill get over it. Some moron IRL started trying to convince me I was stupid for going to the school I am at even though I am graduating wth little debt and the ABA placement data/LST actually suggests my classmates are in a better position than his are. First off, it is not any of his fucking business at ALL. Also, he goes to a higher ranked school and is paying out the ass for very subpar prospects. Maybe this should just be in the rant thread.

[vanwinkle]

Yes, I do realize that. However, the average total debt load is lower. I think last i looked it was $65,000 or something on average. Some get scholarships, some dont.

Obviously, scholarships change things, for those who get them. But once again, you're shifting the facts around; we weren't talking about people on scholarships a minute ago, we were talking about people paying the full $35K/yr COA, and those people are going to be knee-deep in debt with poor prospects of paying work. A lot of people will get $0 in scholarships or close to it; those who get full rides obviously have better finances no matter where they're going.

Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.

No, your income won't remain static. You could get small raises each year; PI jobs don't typically offer large raises unless you get a promotion, though, and openings for managing attorneys are both coveted by staff attorneys and fewer than staff attorneys wanting them. Also, these days, a lot of PI orgs have been living under wage freezes; I have worked with attorneys who haven't gotten a raise at all in 2-3 years.

Also, the pendulum swings both ways. You could be fired. You could be laid off through no fault of your own, too. As I just noted, the OPD were reducing staff. I've worked in PI orgs in different states that have seen such massive budget problems recently that they've had to lay off significant numbers of staff attorneys. This was considered unthinkable until a few years ago, PI jobs were considered "safe", but they're not.

It is possible for your income to change, but because it could stay largely the same or go up or down significantly and you can't predict that in advance, you shouldn't assume anything.

Edit: i looked up total COA for a LSU resident. Its right at 100,000. So thats right at six figures not over six figures.

I mentioned $105K. Are you really saying $5K is a big difference when it is six figures either way?

Also, not everyone will be paying sticker.

No, but many will, and many will also get scholarships that only reduce that by 10-20% and still leave them with significant debt. I'd also like to note this thread is about graduating with $200K in loans; a lot of people's concern are those who aren't getting scholarships that want to attend anyway, no matter where they go. LSU makes no sense to attend purely on loans at $105K debt right now.

Ultimately, I am just pissed off today and ill get over it. Some moron IRL started trying to convince me I was stupid for going to the school I am at even though I am graduating wth little debt and the ABA placement data/LST actually suggests my classmates are in a better position than his are. First off, it is not any of his fucking business at ALL. Also, he goes to a higher ranked school and is paying out the ass for very subpar prospects. Maybe this should just be in the rant thread.

If you're taking scholarships and will graduate with little debt, then good for you. That's not the type of person I think is making a huge mistake, at least you're minimizing your debt. Those who are "paying out the ass" no matter where they go. At LSU, going with large scholarships is not bad, my concern is mainly for those who have signed up to pay $105K or close to it, plus interest (which will push that far higher, at today's loan rates). They'll be in far greater financial trouble than you. And IBR tax-free loan forgiveness doesn't help them if they can't find PI work, which in this job market is at least possible.

[blsingindisguise]

Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/

It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.

[Samara]

Also, public gigs at least have Public service loan forgiveness (and no tax bomb). And I still dont get why people constantly assume that if you start at 40-50,000 or less a year, you will stay at that income for the rest of your life. Its not like things are so static.

No, your income won't remain static. You could get small raises each year; PI jobs don't typically offer large raises unless you get a promotion, though, and openings for managing attorneys are both coveted by staff attorneys and fewer than staff attorneys wanting them. Also, these days, a lot of PI orgs have been living under wage freezes; I have worked with attorneys who haven't gotten a raise at all in 2-3 years.

Also, the pendulum swings both ways. You could be fired. You could be laid off through no fault of your own, too. As I just noted, the OPD were reducing staff. I've worked in PI orgs in different states that have seen such massive budget problems recently that they've had to lay off significant numbers of staff attorneys. This was considered unthinkable until a few years ago, PI jobs were considered "safe", but they're not.

It is possible for your income to change, but because it could stay largely the same or go up or down significantly and you can't predict that in advance, you shouldn't assume anything.

Not to mention that your COL goes up every year, due to inflation. I worked in state government for three years and didn't get a single raise due to budget freezes and then was laid off. If your salary is frozen, you are actually making less and less as COL increases, so you have to get raises just to stay even.

[20130312]

Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/

It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.

Fairly useless without the italicized.

[vanwinkle]

I worked in state government for three years and didn't get a single raise due to budget freezes and then was laid off.

Your point about COL is solid, but people in this thread need to see this even more. The idea that PI is a stable/safe job you can keep is false, and a lot of people just assume things will be okay because they'll find a PI job and then be "fine". Even if you get the job, you're not safe.

[Samara]

I worked in state government for three years and didn't get a single raise due to budget freezes and then was laid off.

Your point about COL is solid, but people in this thread need to see this even more. The idea that PI is a stable/safe job you can keep is false, and a lot of people just assume things will be okay because they'll find a PI job and then be "fine". Even if you get the job, you're not safe.

And if you want to work in the prosecutor's office, it's even worse. I know that in my former city of residence (top 25 in terms of size), when the incumbent party lost the prosecutor race, the new guy cleaned house, pushing out quite a few attorneys. And believe me, there were more than enough people to fill the void. Even with some political connections going to bat for him, I know a guy who graduated from the area's T2 law school who couldn't get a job there and (last I heard) is still working as a waiter.

I'm a big believer in what state government can do and I found my job very fulfilling, but it's brutal out there. Don't get a state government job if you want job security or a decent salary. Those are relics of the past and what advantages still exist are quickly dwindling. All it takes is one Scott Walker to destroy state government jobs as a viable and stable career path.

[Samara]

Not to go off on another rant, but that's also why it bugs the shit out of me when people talk about paying sticker when they want a PI job and acting like it's no big deal to get a LRAP/PSLF-qualifying job for ten years. TEN YEARS.

[blsingindisguise]

Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/

It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.

Fairly useless without the italicized.

Yeah well no offense dude, but I attended a T2 on scholarship too, and you can count on your fingers the number of grads doing that kind of thing from my class year, so I wouldn't get too excited. For biglaw #'s you might actually need to use your hands and feet.

[fatduck]

a bunch of like, "logic" and stuff

why don't we just assume that the people attending at sticker are the ones who get the higher paying jobs? then the problem disappears!

[20130312]

Well here's another little dose of reality that I think the thread could use:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/20/law ... r-schools/

It's a ranking of the top "big law feeder schools" by % of 2011 grads working in biglaw. The #1 school, Columbia, has just 59% of its grads in biglaw. The #25 school, U. Washington, has just 12% of its grads in biglaw. Obviously the numbers are a little misleading for some schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale, which probably had large numbers of students clerking, going to high-end boutiques, doing prestigious fellowships or whatever else grads of those schools do. Nonetheless the numbers should give you some pause if you're relying on the "risk adjustments" cited upthread. I mean Georgetown is T14 and it has less than 1/3 students in biglaw. Even if another 10% are clerks who are bound to land biglaw down the road, that's less than half the class earning the kind of salary it takes to pay off the debt quickly.

Fairly useless without the italicized.

Yeah well no offense dude, but I attended a T2 on scholarship too, and you can count on your fingers the number of grads doing that kind of thing from my class year, so I wouldn't get too excited. For biglaw #'s you might actually need to use your hands and feet.

About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.

[blsingindisguise]

About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.

1) Your school is lying to you.

2) State court clerks don't get biglaw.

HTH

[20130312]

About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.

1) Your school is lying to you.

2) State court clerks don't get biglaw.

HTH

1) Nope, unless LST is lying.

2) I'm not silly enough to believe I will get biglaw out of a T2.

Thanks.

[fatduck]

About 30% of the class from my school goes into clerking.

1) Your school is lying to you.

2) State court clerks don't get biglaw.

HTH

1) Nope, unless LST is lying.

2) I'm not silly enough to believe I will get biglaw out of a T2.

Thanks.

you said ranking schools by "% of students who get biglaw" is worthless because it doesn't consider the % of students who clerk. so....

[20130312]

you said ranking schools by "% of students who get biglaw" is worthless because it doesn't consider the % of students who clerk. so....

Gotcha. I meant it was silly because just by looking at that data, someone interested in biglaw might unfairly assume that it's better for them to go to USC than Yale.