Is a faux marriage ethical to the Bar folks... Forum

[vandalvideo]

To me this option is clearly legal, but is it ethical, by which I mean is it unethical to the extent that it raises a red flag?

I would love to give you moral support on this issue, but I have questionable morals.

[jks289]

Anytime the question is "Can they catch me?" the correct answer is always "Don't do it." I'm sure I'll be called out as a dumb 0L but you're entering into a contract for the purpose of defrauding the government. Green card marriages are a crime, as is "marriage fraud" in general so clearly the "how can you judge a marriage" argument doesn't hold up. Also, I am not sure if the residency tuition qualifies but if you commit fraud in obtaining federal loans it is a felony. This is NOT worth the risk. $21,000 less in loans won't mean anything if you aren't admitted to the bar over it.

Given the questions asked when federal officers investigate so-called 'fraud marriages': http://www.immihelp.com/greencard/famil ... rview.html
I don't think he'll have a problem skirting the issue.

Yes, but it still boils down to "Can I get away with committing a crime?" Maybe he could, but why gamble with that kind of risk?

[skaxfif]

Anytime the question is "Can they catch me?" the correct answer is always "Don't do it." I'm sure I'll be called out as a dumb 0L but you're entering into a contract for the purpose of defrauding the government. Green card marriages are a crime, as is "marriage fraud" in general so clearly the "how can you judge a marriage" argument doesn't hold up. Also, I am not sure if the residency tuition qualifies but if you commit fraud in obtaining federal loans it is a felony. This is NOT worth the risk. $21,000 less in loans won't mean anything if you aren't admitted to the bar over it.

Given the questions asked when federal officers investigate so-called 'fraud marriages': http://www.immihelp.com/greencard/famil ... rview.html
I don't think he'll have a problem skirting the issue.

Yes, but it still boils down to "Can I get away with committing a crime?" Maybe he could, but why gamble with that kind of risk?

Is it criminal though? What if the cheaper tuition is merely a fringe benefit of marriage and not the exclusive or most important factor. What if we really were star-crossed lovers trying to make a go of it? Me being in C-U and her in Chitown would make it tough though.

[Sell Manilla]

Yes, but it still boils down to "Can I get away with committing a crime?" Maybe he could, but why gamble with that kind of risk?

Because people gamble with risks every day? And if OP gets enough reassurance, & finds 10 people who've done the same thing without getting caught, he's gonna go for it & save tons of money? [OP, might wanna throw your friend a couple grand in the end as a sweet thank-you]

The existence of risk is not enough to back down. You actually have to weigh it against the gains.

As for morals, pshaaaw. If you were robbing little old ladies, perhaps, but maaaan, fuck the system. [[[que punk music]]]

[NU_Jet55]

As for morals, pshaaaw.

Perpetuating negative stereotypes of our humble profession, ftl

[Total Litigator]

.

[Total Litigator]

Sounds like "Zack & Miri make a Marriage" to me.

Three years from now, after you and her have a falling out, the local BAR denies you entrance after she breaks down and rats you out in retaliation for you "not committing fully to the charade." You will take up meager employment as a paintball target at the local fairgrounds in order to make ends meet. Then your black friend will find you and tell you that you've got to finalize the divorce.

It's nonplatonic love at first sight. The local BAR finds out about this tear jerker of a love story after reading your formal wedding announcement in the paper. As you walk toward the limo after your formal wedding, a man in a suit approaches you with a letter. He's the head of the state BAR association, and he formally admits you to the bar.

I'm a slobbering mess over here...

[jks289]

Anytime the question is "Can they catch me?" the correct answer is always "Don't do it." I'm sure I'll be called out as a dumb 0L but you're entering into a contract for the purpose of defrauding the government. Green card marriages are a crime, as is "marriage fraud" in general so clearly the "how can you judge a marriage" argument doesn't hold up. Also, I am not sure if the residency tuition qualifies but if you commit fraud in obtaining federal loans it is a felony. This is NOT worth the risk. $21,000 less in loans won't mean anything if you aren't admitted to the bar over it.

Given the questions asked when federal officers investigate so-called 'fraud marriages': http://www.immihelp.com/greencard/famil ... rview.html
I don't think he'll have a problem skirting the issue.

Yes, but it still boils down to "Can I get away with committing a crime?" Maybe he could, but why gamble with that kind of risk?

Is it criminal though? What if the cheaper tuition is merely a fringe benefit of marriage and not the exclusive or most important factor. What if we really were star-crossed lovers trying to make a go of it? Me being in C-U and her in Chitown would make it tough though.

It is criminal. Getting married to commit fraud is a crime. It is a crime for a green card, and it is a crime for loans and insurance. Military marriage fraud, in which service members marry for the increased pay and housing allowance, is illegal as well. A basic google search will pull up the various state and Federal penalties ($250,000 fine and 5 years in jail appears to be the standard.) Take a look at the marriage application and license, there is an entire section in which you swear you are not marrying for the purpose of immigration or financial fraud. People are routinely prosecuted for this stuff, so obviously it isn't impossible to prove two people aren't just in love.

As to the ethical issues, this constitutes a crime of moral turpitude. In other words, the kind of thing that gets you DQ'ed by C&F and makes you unfit to be an officer of the court.

[Sell Manilla]

Shit just got real.

[Total Litigator]

It is criminal. Getting married to commit fraud is a crime.

Way to ruin the party.

[jks289]

It is criminal. Getting married to commit fraud is a crime.

Way to ruin the party.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I can just see how the OP thinks this is a harmless win-win situation. I really hope he can be convinced otherwise.

[peterstein]

It is criminal. Getting married to commit fraud is a crime. It is a crime for a green card, and it is a crime for loans and insurance. Military marriage fraud, in which service members marry for the increased pay and housing allowance, is illegal as well. A basic google search will pull up the various state and Federal penalties ($250,000 fine and 5 years in jail appears to be the standard.) Take a look at the marriage application and license, there is an entire section in which you swear you are not marrying for the purpose of immigration or financial fraud. People are routinely prosecuted for this stuff, so obviously it isn't impossible to prove two people aren't just in love.

As to the ethical issues, this constitutes a crime of moral turpitude. In other words, the kind of thing that gets you DQ'ed by C&F and makes you unfit to be an officer of the court.

It is routinely persecuted, but if you look through the cases where people actually get caught, they are generally situations like 1) age difference (10+ yrs) 2) the couple is unable to communicate with each other due to language barriers 3) the couple knows basically nothing about each other 4) the non-citizen is in the US illegally 5) money is changing hands 6) the US citizen is poor (and not a student) 7) there is a lack of corroborating evidence proving a prior relationship, etc.

In a situation like the OP's, it would be almost impossible for them to prove fraud beyond a reasonable doubt (unless someone sent them this thread).

[Sell Manilla]

I'm not trying to be a dick.

Explaining to OP & us knee-slappers the reality of what looks like an extreeeeemely high risk of nastiness does not constitute being a dick.

Peterstein's last post seems credible though. I still wouldn't do it, but I totally think OP should & check in with us a few years from now.

[HBK]

It is routinely persecuted, but if you look through the cases where people actually get caught, they are generally situations like 1) age difference (10+ yrs) 2) the couple is unable to communicate with each other due to language barriers 3) the couple knows basically nothing about each other 4) the non-citizen is in the US illegally 5) money is changing hands 6) the US citizen is poor (and not a student) 7) there is a lack of corroborating evidence proving a prior relationship, etc.

In a situation like the OP's, it would be almost impossible for them to prove fraud beyond a reasonable doubt (unless someone sent them this thread).

Why are they always persecuting these people?

[skaxfif]

It is criminal. Getting married to commit fraud is a crime.

Way to ruin the party.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I can just see how the OP thinks this is a harmless win-win situation. I really hope he can be convinced otherwise.

Clearly I see harm in the situation, that's why I asked the question. And by no means was this by best, or even in my top 10 methods I was planning on using to mitigate the expense of my JD. Although now this is in my top 10 screenplay ideas.

More than anything, the cavalier way marriage was invoked in the UIUC profile got me wondering about the viability of that route. I can see how it's shady business, and I'm a little surprise that someone hasn't come along saying that they did it. Given the direction this thread has gone, it makes sense that no one has though.

[joeshmo39]

According to Illinois statutes getting married for any reason whatsoever is totally legal as long as you consummate it. Civil Code of 1967 4.25.42. Think on it man, think on it.


*I made that up

[holborn]

am i the only one who thinks this is a flame?

[Total Litigator]

I know, I actually just can't believe the OP is actually is actually considering this. (So I no, I don't think jks289 is being a dick).

I don't want to sound like a sap, but OP is trying to become a lawyer (key word "law") and he is going to break the law in order to do so. This just seems so extremely stupid. I won't call flame, because he seems strangely earnest. Is it worth 21K? Probably, if you take into consideration odds, but its just so wrong. Maybe if he was trying to get in-state at med school or a masters program. BUT NOT FOR LAW SCHOOL!!!!

[djjf39]

am i the only one who thinks this is a flame?

No, but if it is then it has been refreshingly entertaining.

[09042014]

TCR is UIUC is a festering TTT and you shouldn't go for anything more than zero dollars.

[Sell Manilla]

First jks cut the music, then Desert Fox punched OP in the face.

[skaxfif]

TCR is UIUC is a festering TTT and you shouldn't go for anything more than zero dollars.

TCR? TTT? I'm sure all this insider shorthand means something, but what?

[09042014]

TCR is UIUC is a festering TTT and you shouldn't go for anything more than zero dollars.

TCR? TTT? I'm sure all this insider shorthand means something, but what?

The Credited Response

Third Tier Toilet

[NU_Jet55]

TCR is UIUC is a festering TTT and you shouldn't go for anything more than zero dollars.

What took you so long DF?

[UnTouChablE]

As for morals, pshaaaw. If you were robbing little old ladies, perhaps, but maaaan, fuck the system. [[[que punk music]]]

This is true ^

It is routinely persecuted, but if you look through the cases where people actually get caught, they are generally situations like 1) age difference (10+ yrs) 2) the couple is unable to communicate with each other due to language barriers 3) the couple knows basically nothing about each other 4) the non-citizen is in the US illegally 5) money is changing hands 6) the US citizen is poor (and not a student) 7) there is a lack of corroborating evidence proving a prior relationship, etc.

In a situation like the OP's, it would be almost impossible for them to prove fraud beyond a reasonable doubt (unless someone sent them this thread).

This is true too, but imho it is too big a risk to take for 21k in savings over a lifetime. Maybe the citizenship I would condone but this, for financial aid, nah son. Just do a year and fulfill the requirements.

EDIT: to correct quote failure, lol