GI Bill Yellow Ribbon Program Forum

[dapoetic1]

Poetic: can you post the link to the VA website that says 12 is the max hours creditable? I've poured over the legislation and the website and have never seen that. Not trying to be argumentative, I just want to make sure I've got the right info.

I see Krys posted something for you.
I understand your confusion. The problem is not specifically the credit hours. It's that they're using 2 separate number but they're only showing you 1 number.
If you're an undergad at State University in let's say Alabama and they charged $200/credit hour and you enroll half time for 10 credits your tuition would be $2000. The maximum per credit hour charge for the state of Alabama is $243.00/credit hour so they would pay the full amount. But let's say you enroll in Private University as an undergrad full time and they charge $400/credit hour for anything 12 hours or more. Your total tuition would be $4800--but the caveat is the the VA won't pay the $4800 because the highest in-state public tuition could only be $2400 (max per credit x full time credit or $200 x 12). So much like privat school students, law students will never get the number of credits we actually take x the max per credit hour because it would exeed the overall cap for the maximum in-state tuition for undergrads.
And since no undergrad institution charges more for taking more credits over the full time amount (which is 12 hours) the most you can receive is the 12 hours x the max credit hours.
So yes they will pay you the max credit hour rate x the number of credits but only up to a certain amount. And as law students we're never going to be under the cap because it's based on the overall undergraduate rate.
I know it's confusing, and I hope I'm explaining it to you correctly.

On my home computer I actually have the breakdown of what the most expensive school in each state is, and what the overall tuition cap will be. Obviously the rates are from 2008-2009. But I think that chart makes a little more sense. If I can find it I'll link it.

[dapoetic1]

http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... #Scenario4

this is the best link I can find.
It shows the different break downs of what VA will pay for public and private schools that are under and over the tuition cap.
For all intents and purposes Law school is going to pretty much fall under the Private school scenarios.
hth

[Rotor]

The scenarios are written as enrolled in 12 hours of classes, so clearly that's all they would pay. Now, if the scenario said enrolled in 15 but still paid only for 12 all would be clear.

The site also mixes up some of its terminology when talking about max tuition and fees from back when the table had a single number for each state. Argh. Wish it could be simpler, but Congress didn't help the VA out there.

[Krys987]

12 credit hours X $250 max cost per credit hour in your state = $3,000 max VA can pay

I don't find that to be ambiguous at all.

from the other sheet, the one that assumes it's a public in state school: http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... yments.pdf

granted, it's worded slightly differently here: http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... tution.pdf

The maximum VA could pay was determined by multiplying the number of credit hours you are enrolled in and the maximum the VA could pay (12 credit hours X $250 max cost per credit hour in your state = $3,000 max VA can pay.)

My bet is the first quote is the actual intent. That it's your hours enrolled x max per hour is really wishful thinking, and while I wish it also - we all know they are going to attempt to take the cheapest routes.

Hell, I hope I'm wrong and there's no actual ceiling on enrolled hours. Where I'm going in the spring it would make a huge difference, I just doubt it completely.

[Rotor]

My only issue with your justifications is using the scenarios where 12 credits were listed as an assumption in the case, not as program policy. I wrote and asked the FAQ page and got a supremely ambiguous reply along the lines of "no guidance has been issued for specific cases." (Never mind I didn't ask for evaluation of a specific case).

[Krys987]

it seems to me like the examples actually are saying 12 is the max.

it says:

The maximum VA could pay was determined by multiplying the number of credit hours you are enrolled in and the maximum the VA could pay (12 credit hours X $250 max cost per credit hour in your state = $3,000 max VA can pay.)

in the parenthesis it says (12 credit hours X $250 max cost per credit hour in your state = $3,000 max VA can pay.) The example is assuming it's 12x200 - it then compares it to the max, which it states would be 12x250.

where it says "by multiplying the number of credit hours you are enrolled in and the maximum the VA could pay," which is what's causing the confusion, is probably just another shining example of poor choice of words on the VA's part.

really though, i hope i'm wrong.

[Rotor]

where it says "by multiplying the number of credit hours you are enrolled in and the maximum the VA could pay,"

This is exactly my point. The EXAMPLE says the student is taking 12 hours so that's the multiple. I just can't find anywhere that says it's the max.

which is what's causing the confusion, is probably just another shining example of poor choice of words on the VA's part.

No doubt it's the VA's phrasing and example generation that's at issue here. We can add a thanks to Congress for creating such a cumbersome bill to administer.

really though, i hope i'm wrong.

It would be nice for everyone (but like someone above said, that virtue alone probably means I'm wrong )

[JD/MBA_Bound]

Is anyone else who is eligible for the Post 9/11 GI Bill, but who used most/all their benefits under MGIB and racked up student loan debt to cover the difference, feeling slightly screwed by their proactive approach?

Anyone know if there has been any attempt to reach out to that group?

I ran into a similar situation a few years back. It was obviously not regarding the new 9/11 GI Bill, but I think my experience may help your situation. I began using my MGIB benefit while on active duty, but soon realized that it was a bad fiscal move on my part after I learned how much of the total benefit I would be losing by using the MGIB while on active duty. Anyhoot, long story short, you can call the VA people and actually buy back any portion of your used benefits. In other words, if you already used up the 36 months of the MGIB, then you can "give" the money back and actually be eligible for the Post 9/11 GI Bill (assuming that you are eligible for the Post 9/11, that is).

In my case, I used like 6 out of 36 months while on active duty, then just wrote them a check for the 6 months used, and now I have 36 months of Post 9/11 eligibility remaining. My advice to you would certainly not pay back the entire 36 months at once; however, do it in little chunks (like a semester at a time). For example, if you gave them 4 months at one time (say $4,000) towards the MGIB, then you would have 4 months of eligibility of the Post 9/11. If you would do this semester by semester, then you could potentially double (or more) your return. That is, if you, over the course of law school, pay the VA back 24 months under the MGIB (roughly 24,000), then depending on what school you pick, you could very easily double your money.

I hope the above helped...

[kplanders]

I can't seem to find a clear answer to this question if anyone can help me out. If you are a resident of NY state and want to go to a private school in Massachusetts, or any other state, is the maximum amount of tuition the VA will pay based on NY public colleges or Massachusetts public colleges??? My situation is wanting to attend Northeastern in Boston and being a resident of NY. Northeastern has not committed to Yellow ribbon yet that I've heard.

[Rotor]

I can't seem to find a clear answer to this question if anyone can help me out. If you are a resident of NY state and want to go to a private school in Massachusetts, or any other state, is the maximum amount of tuition the VA will pay based on NY public colleges or Massachusetts public colleges??? My situation is wanting to attend Northeastern in Boston and being a resident of NY. Northeastern has not committed to Yellow ribbon yet that I've heard.

It's based on the location of the school.

[alveron]

In my case, I used like 6 out of 36 months while on active duty, then just wrote them a check for the 6 months used, and now I have 36 months of Post 9/11 eligibility remaining. My advice to you would certainly not pay back the entire 36 months at once; however, do it in little chunks (like a semester at a time). For example, if you gave them 4 months at one time (say $4,000) towards the MGIB, then you would have 4 months of eligibility of the Post 9/11. If you would do this semester by semester, then you could potentially double (or more) your return. That is, if you, over the course of law school, pay the VA back 24 months under the MGIB (roughly 24,000), then depending on what school you pick, you could very easily double your money.

I hope the above helped...

That is really interesting. I have about 18 months of benefits left. I would totally take the loans out to buy some months back. Thanks for the info

[dapoetic1]

12 is not necessarily the max
The max is whatever the highest in-state tuition is for undergrad in that state.
But they way they come up with the highest in state tuition is by multiplying the highes charge per credit hour x the max number of hours it takes to be full time in undergrad.
So even if you take 15 hours when you mulitply 15 time the max per credit charge for your state it's going to exceed the max in-state tuition for that state. And the max will never be more than 12 x max per credit since VA considers 12 hours to represent full time status, and no school (in-state, undergrad) should charge more than max per credit x 12

So that's why 12 credits is the highest number you can use because anything over that is going to exceed the VA's maximum for public in-state tuition for undergrads.
That's why they need the YRP. It would pay the difference between VA's max and actual tuition.

[Rotor]

TONS of great information from the Federal Register showing the deliberations as they set the final rules for the program.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/E9-7052.htm

It clarifies some of the confusing issues, and maybe changes some preconceived notions from earlier iterations of the program that may no longer be true (especially as regards the transferability of the benefit, etc.) and makes it apparent why schools are hesitant to sign up for the YRP (among other things, it's first-come, first-served so they can't tailor it to individual applicants)

HEALTH WARNING: It is long. It is boring. But hey, you're getting ready to go to law school so get used to it. (But you need only read through the public comments/replies. Everything after that is actual revisions to the rule that is explained in the first section of the page.)

[nukelaloosh]

12 is not necessarily the max
The max is whatever the highest in-state tuition is for undergrad in that state.
But they way they come up with the highest in state tuition is by multiplying the highes charge per credit hour x the max number of hours it takes to be full time in undergrad.
So even if you take 15 hours when you mulitply 15 time the max per credit charge for your state it's going to exceed the max in-state tuition for that state. And the max will never be more than 12 x max per credit since VA considers 12 hours to represent full time status, and no school (in-state, undergrad) should charge more than max per credit x 12

So that's why 12 credits is the highest number you can use because anything over that is going to exceed the VA's maximum for public in-state tuition for undergrads.
That's why they need the YRP. It would pay the difference between VA's max and actual tuition.

This does not make sense because the bill was written to pay for tuition at the most-expensive in-state school for a complete 4-year course of study. I am not aware of any school where you can get a degree with only 96 credit hours.

I think there is a little too much assumption going on here.

[Cole S. Law]

12 is not necessarily the max
The max is whatever the highest in-state tuition is for undergrad in that state.
But they way they come up with the highest in state tuition is by multiplying the highes charge per credit hour x the max number of hours it takes to be full time in undergrad.
So even if you take 15 hours when you mulitply 15 time the max per credit charge for your state it's going to exceed the max in-state tuition for that state. And the max will never be more than 12 x max per credit since VA considers 12 hours to represent full time status, and no school (in-state, undergrad) should charge more than max per credit x 12

So that's why 12 credits is the highest number you can use because anything over that is going to exceed the VA's maximum for public in-state tuition for undergrads.
That's why they need the YRP. It would pay the difference between VA's max and actual tuition.

This does not make sense because the bill was written to pay for tuition at the most-expensive in-state school for a complete 4-year course of study. I am not aware of any school where you can get a degree with only 96 credit hours.

I think there is a little too much assumption going on here.

Correction...it was meant to pay the complete course of study for 3 years. Doesn't make sense I know, but I stopped expecting the government to make sense a long time ago.

[Rotor]

12 is not necessarily the max
The max is whatever the highest in-state tuition is for undergrad in that state.
But they way they come up with the highest in state tuition is by multiplying the highes charge per credit hour x the max number of hours it takes to be full time in undergrad.
So even if you take 15 hours when you mulitply 15 time the max per credit charge for your state it's going to exceed the max in-state tuition for that state. And the max will never be more than 12 x max per credit since VA considers 12 hours to represent full time status, and no school (in-state, undergrad) should charge more than max per credit x 12

So that's why 12 credits is the highest number you can use because anything over that is going to exceed the VA's maximum for public in-state tuition for undergrads.
That's why they need the YRP. It would pay the difference between VA's max and actual tuition.

This does not make sense because the bill was written to pay for tuition at the most-expensive in-state school for a complete 4-year course of study. I am not aware of any school where you can get a degree with only 96 credit hours.

I think there is a little too much assumption going on here.

Correction...it was meant to pay the complete course of study for 3 years. Doesn't make sense I know, but I stopped expecting the government to make sense a long time ago.

Nope. It was designed for the four year degree, assuming four 9-month academic terms. This gets you to 36 benefit months. I agree with nuke...

After reading the FR further last night, I found that 14 is the assumption for FT credit hours, but that is only mentioned with respect to the rate of attainment or something like that, not in determination of benefit amounts.

Edit: To unscrew my post from the quotes. Thanks iPhone!

[Cole S. Law]

Nope. It was designed for the four year degree, assuming four 9-month academic terms. This gets you to 36 benefit months. I agree with nuke...

After reading the FR further last night, I found that 14 is the assumption for FT credit hours, but that is only mentioned with respect to the rate of attainment or something like that, not in determination of benefit amounts.

Edit: To unscrew my post from the quotes. Thanks iPhone!

Does that mean I don't get my BAH during the summer?

[Rotor]

Nope. It was designed for the four year degree, assuming four 9-month academic terms. This gets you to 36 benefit months. I agree with nuke...

After reading the FR further last night, I found that 14 is the assumption for FT credit hours, but that is only mentioned with respect to the rate of attainment or something like that, not in determination of benefit amounts.

Edit: To unscrew my post from the quotes. Thanks iPhone!

Does that mean I don't get my BAH during the summer?

Not unless you are taking classes to get you to the minimum to qualify for it. (Yes, this one was a shock to me as well.... )

[Cole S. Law]

Nope. It was designed for the four year degree, assuming four 9-month academic terms. This gets you to 36 benefit months. I agree with nuke...

After reading the FR further last night, I found that 14 is the assumption for FT credit hours, but that is only mentioned with respect to the rate of attainment or something like that, not in determination of benefit amounts.

Edit: To unscrew my post from the quotes. Thanks iPhone!

Does that mean I don't get my BAH during the summer?

Not unless you are taking classes to get you to the minimum to qualify for it. (Yes, this one was a shock to me as well.... )

Uh-oh. Time to make some new plans. Well, hopefully it will only be an issue for my 1L summer. If all goes well, maybe I'll even have a job for my 1L summer. I'd really like to intern for a judge that summer though. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the heads up.

[Rotor]

Nope. It was designed for the four year degree, assuming four 9-month academic terms. This gets you to 36 benefit months. I agree with nuke...

After reading the FR further last night, I found that 14 is the assumption for FT credit hours, but that is only mentioned with respect to the rate of attainment or something like that, not in determination of benefit amounts.

Edit: To unscrew my post from the quotes. Thanks iPhone!

Does that mean I don't get my BAH during the summer?

Not unless you are taking classes to get you to the minimum to qualify for it. (Yes, this one was a shock to me as well.... )

Uh-oh. Time to make some new plans. Well, hopefully it will only be an issue for my 1L summer. If all goes well, maybe I'll even have a job for my 1L summer. I'd really like to intern for a judge that summer though. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the heads up.

No kidding. When the VA counsellor at my transition class said that you had to be half-time even in the summer to qualify I went . Reading the FR, it looks like they'll do it month to month, so you may get some love in the margins if the dates work out right. If you end in May and start in August it may be that June/July are the only months unpaid (couldn't tell from what I read if it had to be 15 days+ for a month to be credited).

For me, I'm on terminal leave when classes start-- so still Active Duty. I won't qualify for BAH or books until Oct. I have to figure out if it is going to be better to apply right away and hope that I get BAH & book stipend starting mid-term OR pay out of pocket up front (ick) then apply when I qualify for everything (but does that risk not getting tuition because by then, my balance will be zero thanks to loans). Clearly, VA isn't ready to answer THAT question. (Will they ever be?)

[alveron]

No kidding. When the VA counsellor at my transition class said that you had to be half-time even in the summer to qualify I went . Reading the FR, it looks like they'll do it month to month, so you may get some love in the margins if the dates work out right. If you end in May and start in August it may be that June/July are the only months unpaid (couldn't tell from what I read if it had to be 15 days+ for a month to be credited).

For me, I'm on terminal leave when classes start-- so still Active Duty. I won't qualify for BAH or books until Oct. I have to figure out if it is going to be better to apply right away and hope that I get BAH & book stipend starting mid-term OR pay out of pocket up front (ick) then apply when I qualify for everything (but does that risk not getting tuition because by then, my balance will be zero thanks to loans). Clearly, VA isn't ready to answer THAT question. (Will they ever be?)

If this new Chapter 33 works like Chapter 30, you will be eligible for everything the day after you ETS. I would just take out the appropriate amount of loans to cover the month gap in tuition and housing and leave the balance for the GI Bill. If you find out that the VA is not going to play ball for the rest of that semester then you can always increase your loan aid once you find out. I would talk to the university to see if they can give you an extension to pay the tuition until you ETS and VA can give you a definitive answer.

[dapoetic1]

If you're an undergrad then it doesn't matter if you're taking 12 hours a semester or 22 hours a semsest the tuition is the exact same. The only time the per credit hour charge applies is if you are less than full time. If you are an undergrad taking 11 credit hours and the school charges $200/credit hour and the VA max is $300 then VA will pay 11X$200. And all of your tuition will be covered because you're under the per credit hour max and the in-state tuition max.
If you're an undergrad taking 15 hours then the VA will pay the maximum tuition for that state. Which would be 12 (number of credits VA considers full time)x $300. At that point the per credit charge wouldn't apply. But if the state maximum per credit charge is $300. A student taking 12 credits and a student taking 15 credits at the same school are both going to be charge the flat rate for full time tuition. If you are attending a public school as a resident then you will have full tuition covered if you take 12, 15 or 20 credits per semester because you're going to receive the in-state max.

Grad schools, private schools, and out-of-state students will NEVER receive more than the in-state maximum. There isn't a law school around that charges less than or equal to the highest per credit rate for tuition.
You are entitled to receive 36 months of benefits and if you're an undergrad going to a state school as a resident that would cover 4 years of school. But for law students the 36 months of benefits are not going to pay out nearly as much as it's going to cost to attend. The most anyone going to law school is going to get is the maximum in-state tuition for that state for an undergrad resident. And if you look at the amounts there are only a couple of schools where ugrad in-state tuition is over $10,000. It's usually closer to $5 or $6k.

Fees are a different story. Since most schools charge about the same amount of fees to undergrads, grad students, professional students as long as they're full time then most of the fees associated with attending school will be paid (unless you're going to school in Arizona which only pays bout fifty cents in fees)

But getting caught up in the number of credit hours you're going to be taking in law school is irrelevant. The important number is the cap on tuition for your state. Whatever that number comes out to be is what you can expect. And one of the best ways to get that number is to multiply the max per credit chargex12. Or find out the most expensive public school in the state and look up their undergrad tuition rate.

[Rotor]

If you're an undergrad then it doesn't matter if you're taking 12 hours a semester or 22 hours a semsest the tuition is the exact same. The only time the per credit hour charge applies is if you are less than full time. If you are an undergrad taking 11 credit hours and the school charges $200/credit hour and the VA max is $300 then VA will pay 11X$200. And all of your tuition will be covered because you're under the per credit hour max and the in-state tuition max.
If you're an undergrad taking 15 hours then the VA will pay the maximum tuition for that state. Which would be 12 (number of credits VA considers full time)x $300. At that point the per credit charge wouldn't apply. But if the state maximum per credit charge is $300. A student taking 12 credits and a student taking 15 credits at the same school are both going to be charge the flat rate for full time tuition. If you are attending a public school as a resident then you will have full tuition covered if you take 12, 15 or 20 credits per semester because you're going to receive the in-state max.

Grad schools, private schools, and out-of-state students will NEVER receive more than the in-state maximum. There isn't a law school around that charges less than or equal to the highest per credit rate for tuition.
You are entitled to receive 36 months of benefits and if you're an undergrad going to a state school as a resident that would cover 4 years of school. But for law students the 36 months of benefits are not going to pay out nearly as much as it's going to cost to attend. The most anyone going to law school is going to get is the maximum in-state tuition for that state for an undergrad resident. And if you look at the amounts there are only a couple of schools where ugrad in-state tuition is over $10,000. It's usually closer to $5 or $6k.

Fees are a different story. Since most schools charge about the same amount of fees to undergrads, grad students, professional students as long as they're full time then most of the fees associated with attending school will be paid (unless you're going to school in Arizona which only pays bout fifty cents in fees)

But getting caught up in the number of credit hours you're going to be taking in law school is irrelevant. The important number is the cap on tuition for your state. Whatever that number comes out to be is what you can expect. And one of the best ways to get that number is to multiply the max per credit chargex12. Or find out the most expensive public school in the state and look up their undergrad tuition rate.

I see where our disconnect was! I think you are making an assumption for all states based on one (or a few...maybe most...). There are some states where you pay by the credit hour...if you take 20, you'll pay 20. If you take 10, you pay 10. But they'll count you as full time for anything over X hours. (I did notice the one state that I knew charged for every credit hour when my wife attended a couple of years ago now charges a flat fee for anything over 8 hours! So maybe every state is this way...but it's not a universal 12.)

In the end, I agree with you: if your state only charges up to 12 hours and anything above that is included in that price then that will be the cap on the benefit in that state. (Asides: Then why doesn't VA express the limit instead of the hourly rate (or both) on their table? And what about California, who doesn't charge in state tuition at the UCs or CSUs? How is their hourly rate not zero? (rhetorical questions...don't expect you have the answer))

As for fees between UG and graduate schools being nearly equal: again that may be in some states, but my experiences have been exactly opposite. UMD (where I got my MA) and UC (where I will be going to law school) charge all the campus fees, etc. that UGs pay and THEN lump on graduate school fees on top of that. At UCB, that one fee nearly triples what UGs pay. Ugh... But hey, it's all better than getting nothing at all.

[Krys987]

If you're an undergrad then it doesn't matter if you're taking 12 hours a semester or 22 hours a semsest the tuition is the exact same

This is absolutely not true. Each school I've attended (undergrad, 3 different states) charges per tuition hour regardless of full time or part time. Some even charge more (per hour) for over 18 hours.

[dapoetic1]

I finally found the link the the spreadsheet that shows the most expensive school in a state and the maximum amount of tuition that can be paid in that state.
Obviously these numbers are from the 2008-2009 school year and they haven't been updated to show the most current changes to the per credit hour rate at VA
But what you can see is which undergrad cost the most to attend in any given state and about how much tuition is.
This will give you a good idea of what the cap will be for each state

http://www.gibill2008.org/benefits.html
And click the link that takes you to the state-by-state breakdown or the link further down the page that says "most expensive in state tuition"