,, Forum

[dingbat]

Of course, you can solve this whole problem by not working

[Samara]

I think you mean

Of course, you can solve this whole problem by not going to law school

[blink]

I have a general question for everyone I hope someone can give me some answers...

I will be taking out loans for the full cost of tuition for my T-10 Law School (50k) plus another 20k for living expenses (let's just say for ease that I take that full amount).

For 3 years this is 210k plus all fees.

My question is how does this work with monthly payments when I graduate? With the new laws don't you only have to pay 10% of your discretionary income per year and then it is forgiven after 20 years if you haven't paid it off?

By some general math it would seem that if I make (hopefully) 160k first year and follow that path in a NYC or other big market firm, after taxes (38k), rent (lets say a 4k/month aparment for a total of 48k), and food and other essentials (20k).....where at about 54k so 10% is around 5k....

5k a year for the first year but then when you get more years salary goes up and you will obviously pay more, but it seems like you wouldn't have nearly the discretionary income until you would hopefully hit partner and get the big $$$ (millions? if your lucky)

Now it seems like after 20 years if you don't make partner or do and have other expenses like families.....you would never be able to pay off the 210k originially not including all of the 100k+ of interest that would accrue based on a 10% minimum payment? So then I could just discharge them?

Can someone provide me with more info on this or some answers? It would be highly appreciated.

You're a soulless fuck who roots for the Heat. Who gives a shit?

tagged for rayiner's math skills

[rickgrimes69]

$35k a year is barely a livable wage in NYC. You can probably do it, but you'll be living paycheck to paycheck and likely commuting over an hour each way to live in a shithole. National poverty levels mean nothing when living in NYC.

Take this into consideration - the median income for NYC last year was $55,600 before taxes. After accounting for income tax as a single adult living in NYC, that works out to roughly $38,000 take home. (Not much over your "barely livable" $35k). Again, that take home amount is MEDIAN which means at least half of the people living in NYC live on that much or less. HALF! At least.

Most people who live off that are living in the boroughs. If you want to live in rockaway be my guest, I'm sure it's much cheaper, but you also won't find any work out there and you'll be forced to commute an hour into work every day. I don't know about you, but I don't feel like adding an extra 10 hours each week to my 80+ hour work week.

If you can't figure out how to survive like half the people around you, and you're in the top bracket of that half...well... AND you are in a worst-case scenario for your job/career... you're not in too shabby a place for being in a worst-case. Also also also... when you are in dire straights, living out a worst-case scenario, moving needs to be an option you consider. Living in NYC might be a sacrifice you need to make at that point.

If you move, you might not be able to find a job. You think people live here because it smells so pretty and the streets are so clean? They do it because an overwhelming majority of legal jobs are in NYC, especially in biglaw.

Will it take discipline and calculated sacrifices for four years? Absolutely. No one's saying Admisions' budget was easy. We're saying it's livable, possible, and lots of people do it. The best part about Admisions' budget was that you won't be living paycheck-to-paycheck if you know how to properly balance your finances. So unlike everyone else living within that income range, you won't have the murderous stress of balancing bills paycheck-to-paycheck. That alone should help you get through those four years.

It's called first-world problems people. Not real problems.

Do you want to live paycheck to paycheck? Do you want to live in a cockroach infested shithole, working insane hours at a job you hate, and only doing so because you literally can't afford to quit? Do you want $4000 monthly payments and creditors harassing you ten times a day? Try doing this for 20 years and tell me that these so called "first world" problems aren't real.

This is the whole problem. People don't realize the magnitude of what they are signing onto. This isn't some kiddie shit, ladies and gentlemen; this is some hardcore, life ruining, Game of Thrones type of debt we're talking about here: when you play the game of law school debt, you win... or you die.

[005618502]

$35k a year is barely a livable wage in NYC. You can probably do it, but you'll be living paycheck to paycheck and likely commuting over an hour each way to live in a shithole. National poverty levels mean nothing when living in NYC.

Take this into consideration - the median income for NYC last year was $55,600 before taxes. After accounting for income tax as a single adult living in NYC, that works out to roughly $38,000 take home. (Not much over your "barely livable" $35k). Again, that take home amount is MEDIAN which means at least half of the people living in NYC live on that much or less. HALF! At least.

Most people who live off that are living in the boroughs. If you want to live in rockaway be my guest, I'm sure it's much cheaper, but you also won't find any work out there and you'll be forced to commute an hour into work every day. I don't know about you, but I don't feel like adding an extra 10 hours each week to my 80+ hour work week.

If you can't figure out how to survive like half the people around you, and you're in the top bracket of that half...well... AND you are in a worst-case scenario for your job/career... you're not in too shabby a place for being in a worst-case. Also also also... when you are in dire straights, living out a worst-case scenario, moving needs to be an option you consider. Living in NYC might be a sacrifice you need to make at that point.

If you move, you might not be able to find a job. You think people live here because it smells so pretty and the streets are so clean? They do it because an overwhelming majority of legal jobs are in NYC, especially in biglaw.

Will it take discipline and calculated sacrifices for four years? Absolutely. No one's saying Admisions' budget was easy. We're saying it's livable, possible, and lots of people do it. The best part about Admisions' budget was that you won't be living paycheck-to-paycheck if you know how to properly balance your finances. So unlike everyone else living within that income range, you won't have the murderous stress of balancing bills paycheck-to-paycheck. That alone should help you get through those four years.

It's called first-world problems people. Not real problems.

Do you want to live paycheck to paycheck? Do you want to live in a cockroach infested shithole, working insane hours at a job you hate, and only doing so because you literally can't afford to quit? Do you want $4000 monthly payments and creditors harassing you ten times a day? Try doing this for 20 years and tell me that these so called "first world" problems aren't real.

This is the whole problem. People don't realize the magnitude of what they are signing onto. This isn't some kiddie shit, ladies and gentlemen; this is some hardcore, life ruining, Game of Thrones type of debt we're talking about here: when you play the game of law school debt, you win... or you die.

You're an idiot.

[rickgrimes69]

$35k a year is barely a livable wage in NYC. You can probably do it, but you'll be living paycheck to paycheck and likely commuting over an hour each way to live in a shithole. National poverty levels mean nothing when living in NYC.

...

You're an idiot.

A solid argument.

[09042014]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

[005618502]

You're an idiot.

A solid argument.

Die? Seriously? You are OBVIOUSLY either in UG or not actually familiar with the legal field. People don't die from the burden of loans. They just live to lower means. While working I am living (pretty well actually) on 32K a year before taxes. I go out every weekend, eat out a lot, make monthly payments on my UG loans and in a way partially support my gf (buying groceries for both of us and paying for us to eat out, etc.). All of that on only 32k? omg! I must be almost dead!

[rickgrimes69]

You're an idiot.

A solid argument.

Die? Seriously? You are OBVIOUSLY either in UG or not actually familiar with the legal field. People don't die from the burden of loans.

ITT someone doesn't recognize hyperbole.

While working I am living (pretty well actually) on 32K a year before taxes. I go out every weekend, eat out a lot, make monthly payments on my UG loans and in a way partially support my gf (buying groceries for both of us and paying for us to eat out, etc.). All of that on only 32k? omg! I must be almost dead!

And you live where, exactly? If it isn't NYC / DC / LA etc, you don't know what you're talking about.

[005618502]

You're an idiot.

A solid argument.

Die? Seriously? You are OBVIOUSLY either in UG or not actually familiar with the legal field. People don't die from the burden of loans.

ITT someone doesn't recognize hyperbole.

While working I am living (pretty well actually) on 32K a year before taxes. I go out every weekend, eat out a lot, make monthly payments on my UG loans and in a way partially support my gf (buying groceries for both of us and paying for us to eat out, etc.). All of that on only 32k? omg! I must be almost dead!

And you live where, exactly? If it isn't NYC, you don't know what you're talking about.

Haha yes, even my gf lived in Manhattan for the better part of a year making 650 a week (pre tax)/ She had the time of her life. I could walk from wher she lives to Madison Square Garden in 10-15 mins. (had to get in on that JLIN action) lol.

All I am saying is it is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes it sucks, really bad, living under the burden of debt. But people who let it crush them are just sad people. Probably came from to much money, were spoiled, or just dont know how to hustle. I am not saying its easy, but you can still live and have fun and enjoy your life even if you are making less than 50k after loan payments in NYC. Now if I was looking at a job making that kind of money in a career I would leave NYC, dont know why someone wouldnt. IF you are working biglaw, this is not a hard task.

My gf and I no longer live in NYC.

[BruceWayne]

Although a lot of people are acting like it's impossible, you can really avoid a lot of this if you do biglaw in a secondary market. I assure you that if you go to a top 14 and are from a secondary market it is not impossible to get secondary biglaw or whatever you want to call it (some call it midlaw etc.). And as far as it 'limiting" your options, that's TLS b/s. The only thing it might do is limit your options in NYC, DC, Chicago, or LA. Which is irrelevant if that wasn't your goal in the first place. You can really come out great financially if you do secondary biglaw even with sticker debt. In many secondary markets luxury apartments are $1000 a month.

[20130312]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

^ This. You guys know that you can still get a job after big law kicks you to the curb, right?

[09042014]

Although a lot of people are acting like it's impossible, you can really avoid a lot of this if you do biglaw in a secondary market. I assure you that if you go to a top 14 and are from a secondary market it is not impossible to get secondary biglaw or whatever you want to call it (some call it midlaw etc.). And as far as it 'limiting" your options, that's TLS b/s. The only thing it might do is limit your options in NYC, DC, Chicago, or LA. Which is irrelevant if that wasn't your goal in the first place. You can really come out great financially if you do secondary biglaw even with sticker debt. In many secondary markets luxury apartments are $1000 a month.

Secondary markets that pay 160 or near are total win. But a lot of them are closer to 100.

[Tiago Splitter]

Although a lot of people are acting like it's impossible, you can really avoid a lot of this if you do biglaw in a secondary market. I assure you that if you go to a top 14 and are from a secondary market it is not impossible to get secondary biglaw or whatever you want to call it (some call it midlaw etc.). And as far as it 'limiting" your options, that's TLS b/s. The only thing it might do is limit your options in NYC, DC, Chicago, or LA. Which is irrelevant if that wasn't your goal in the first place. You can really come out great financially if you do secondary biglaw even with sticker debt. In many secondary markets luxury apartments are $1000 a month.

Many secondary markets pay far less than 160K to first years, and the differences become even more pronounced the further along you are. A 5th year in Minneapolis or Phoenix might only make 130K compared to 230K in NYC. There is an attorney from Minneapolis posting in another thread who straight up said don't take on sticker debt if you want to work in that market.

[BruceWayne]

Although a lot of people are acting like it's impossible, you can really avoid a lot of this if you do biglaw in a secondary market. I assure you that if you go to a top 14 and are from a secondary market it is not impossible to get secondary biglaw or whatever you want to call it (some call it midlaw etc.). And as far as it 'limiting" your options, that's TLS b/s. The only thing it might do is limit your options in NYC, DC, Chicago, or LA. Which is irrelevant if that wasn't your goal in the first place. You can really come out great financially if you do secondary biglaw even with sticker debt. In many secondary markets luxury apartments are $1000 a month.

Many secondary markets pay far less than 160K to first years, and the differences become even more pronounced the further along you are. A 5th year in Minneapolis or Phoenix might only make 130K compared to 230K in NYC. There is an attorney from Minneapolis posting in another thread who straight up said don't take on sticker debt if you want to work in that market.

It doesn't matter. The COL in NYC, and the astronomical tax rates there, mean that you still come out ahead. Not to mention you will last much longer in a firm in a secondary market so you will see that salary a lot longer. You also have a legit chance at making partner.

For example, in Atlanta a fourth or 5th year would make around 150K. 150K in Atlanta is akin to 300K in NYC. Texas is even worse--no state income tax and the salaries are equivalent to NYC. Even markets like Charlotte, Nashville, Birmingham, and Florida (where you will make less but still at least start off at 100K) you come out far head of a NYC associate because you can pay 1000 a month in rent (if you want a luxury apartment, if you just want the kind of apartment the average NYC associate lives in you can pay 700 or so) and your take home will be great because of the lower tax rates. If you don't have to work in NYC it's the smarter financial decision with debt--especially Texas and Atlanta.

[09042014]

Atlanta isn't really twice as expensive at all income levels. Federal taxes and student loans are the same, and they are the majority of your expenses.

Rent is the huge difference. But it is somewhat fixed. Its probably 60 percent of your salary at 30k jobs, but if you are making 300k you don't suddenly spend 180k/year on rent.

So while 30k Atl is probably equal to 60k in NYC in qol, the same isn't true of 150 to 300. Because rent is a smaller portion of your salary.

[Tiago Splitter]

It doesn't matter. The COL in NYC, and the astronomical tax rates there, mean that you still come out ahead. Not to mention you will last much longer in a firm in a secondary market so you will see that salary a lot longer. You also have a legit chance at making partner.

But NYC gives you the option of living cheaply and paying off sticker debt quickly. You won't enjoy things as much when paying $1500 to share a place as you would paying $1500 for your own nice condo in Minnesota. But an associate starting in Minneapolis at 110K flat out can not pay back sticker debt in less than five years.

Obviously if you can make closer to 160K with NYC sized raises in a secondary market you can kill it.

And DF's post above is credited.

[rickgrimes69]

Haha yes, even my gf lived in Manhattan for the better part of a year making 650 a week (pre tax)/ She had the time of her life. I could walk from wher she lives to Madison Square Garden in 10-15 mins. (had to get in on that JLIN action) lol.

... My gf and I no longer live in NYC.

And how long has it been since you have lived there? I'm living there now. I can confirm that it is stupidly expensive.

All I am saying is it is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes it sucks, really bad, living under the burden of debt. But people who let it crush them are just sad people. Probably came from to much money, were spoiled, or just dont know how to hustle. I am not saying its easy, but you can still live and have fun and enjoy your life even if you are making less than 50k after loan payments in NYC. Now if I was looking at a job making that kind of money in a career I would leave NYC, dont know why someone wouldnt. IF you are working biglaw, this is not a hard task.

I'm not talking about making 50k after loan payments. I'm talking about making 50k period. If you don't get Biglaw, that's not an unreasonable estimate of the kind of salary you might receive. And trying to pay off 200k in loans with a 50k / year job isn't "living under a burden," that's living in a debt prison for a good portion of your life.

Although a lot of people are acting like it's impossible, you can really avoid a lot of this if you do biglaw in a secondary market. I assure you that if you go to a top 14 and are from a secondary market it is not impossible to get secondary biglaw or whatever you want to call it (some call it midlaw etc.). And as far as it 'limiting" your options, that's TLS b/s. The only thing it might do is limit your options in NYC, DC, Chicago, or LA. Which is irrelevant if that wasn't your goal in the first place. You can really come out great financially if you do secondary biglaw even with sticker debt. In many secondary markets luxury apartments are $1000 a month.

Many secondary markets pay far less than 160K to first years, and the differences become even more pronounced the further along you are. A 5th year in Minneapolis or Phoenix might only make 130K compared to 230K in NYC. There is an attorney from Minneapolis posting in another thread who straight up said don't take on sticker debt if you want to work in that market.

Can you please link to this thread? As someone trying to do exactly that, I'd be interested in reading it.

It doesn't matter. The COL in NYC, and the astronomical tax rates there, mean that you still come out ahead. Not to mention you will last much longer in a firm in a secondary market so you will see that salary a lot longer. You also have a legit chance at making partner.

But NYC gives you the option of living cheaply and paying off sticker debt quickly. You won't enjoy things as much when paying $1500 to share a place as you would paying $1500 for your own nice condo in Minnesota. But an associate starting in Minneapolis at 110K flat out can not pay back sticker debt in less than five years.

Obviously if you can make closer to 160K with NYC sized raises in a secondary market you can kill it.

And DF's post above is credited.

I posted this in another thread, but I struggled with that reasoning for a long time. After crunching the numbers, I concluded that paying off a T14 at sticker would be pretty difficult in the Minnesota market. But - to take my case as an example - even a smaller scholly, in a school with a cheaper COL, can be very affordable when targeting secondary markets.

Here's my rationale. I got a 54k scholly and have enough saved up to cover living expenses for my 1L, so I'm looking at a loan principle of maybe $150k. Paying it off in 5 years would require monthly payments of roughly $3000, which is hefty, but doable: with a starting salary of $110k I'd be pulling in about $5500 / month after taxes, leaving me ~$2500 / month to cover living expenses. IMO, that's a completely livable wage for Minnesota, and I'd be debt free in 5 years. 10 years would knock ~$1200 off my monthly payments if I wanted more breathing room, but also doubles the amount I pay in interest - just an option should I discover my salary wouldn't cut it.

Can anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't work?

[Tiago Splitter]

Here's the Minnesota thread:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=146346

I posted this in another thread, but I struggled with that reasoning for a long time. After crunching the numbers, I concluded that paying off a T14 at sticker would be pretty difficult in the Minnesota market. But - to take my case as an example - even a smaller scholly, in a school with a cheaper COL, can be very affordable when targeting secondary markets.

Here's my rationale. I got a 54k scholly and have enough saved up to cover living expenses for my 1L, so I'm looking at a loan principle of maybe $150k. Paying it off in 5 years would require monthly payments of roughly $3000, which is hefty, but doable: with a starting salary of $110k I'd be pulling in about $5500 / month after taxes, leaving me ~$2500 / month to cover living expenses. IMO, that's a completely livable wage for Minnesota, and I'd be debt free in 5 years. 10 years would knock ~$1200 off my monthly payments if I wanted more breathing room, but also doubles the amount I pay in interest - just an option should I discover my salary wouldn't cut it.

Can anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't work?

150K debt is very different from 250K.

[timbs4339]

You'll have two reasonable options to paying back your loans.

The first is biglaw. If you live in NYC or a comparable city, you'll basically be trying to pay back between 35-50K per year. That means no 4K/mo apartments, no 3K suits or $200 lunches. The "good" thing is that biglaw will take up so much of your time that it's really not worth it to spend a lot on an apartment unless you have kids (if that's the case wtf are you doing taking on 210K of debt in the first place). It'll also give you free food after a certain time or car service which might shave a bit off your monthly expenses. The average associate hopes to last 3-5 years. If you can get to 5 years or above, you will probably have your loans paid off. If you are pushed out at the three-year mark, hopefully you can get another job paying low six-figures at which point the debt will become more manageable (~100K as opposed to 250K).

If you don't get biglaw, shoot for a qualifying government or public interest job. You can go on either your school's Loan Repayment Program, in which case the school will make your payments for 10 years, or get on the government's Public Service Loan Forgiveness, in which case the government will pay your loans off in 10 years. Both programs are contingent, of course, on their continued existence and you staying in qualifying employment. You won't be living like a king, but you'll get the loans paid off in a reasonable time.

The third, more terrible option is going on IBR. If you don't get biglaw or gov/PI, it is likely you will wind up in a 60K job or something that makes it impossible to make the minimum payments plus interest on 240K (what your loans will be in three years). Therefore, you will have to go on IBR. However, you will probably be caught in the IBR death spiral, where interest accrues faster than the minimum payments IBR is making. Then, you are stuck hoping you can last 20 years for the government to forgive your loans (assuming the program is still around in 20 years, which is probably unlikely.)

[20130312]

(assuming the program is still around in 20 years, which is probably unlikely.)

And assuming they remove the tax bomb. Otherwise, you're still screwed.

[blsingindisguise]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

^ This. You guys know that you can still get a job after big law kicks you to the curb, right?

A job which will inevitably pay significantly less than you make in biglaw.

[09042014]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

^ This. You guys know that you can still get a job after big law kicks you to the curb, right?

A job which will inevitably pay significantly less than you make in biglaw.

Plenty of in house and smaller firm jobs pay big lawish money. Especially if you are defining big law money as 160k. Normally you take a pay cut but by the time you lateral, you are making 200.

Its not like you lateral from getting paid 200k to 45k shit law.

[rayiner]

Itt the legal career lasts only five years.

^ This. You guys know that you can still get a job after big law kicks you to the curb, right?

A job which will inevitably pay significantly less than you make in biglaw.

But by and large a job that will still pay significantly more than what you would have made in a non-big law career trajectory. People ITT are completely delusional about job prospects for people who have only undergraduate degrees in a non-engineering field. The average mid-career salary for Ivy-league colleges is ~$100-120k. http://www.cnbc.com/id/40703034/College ... check_2011. A $50k starting salary with a BA to $125k in mid-career without any advanced degrees is a great career trajectory, one that the vast majority of college graduates will not achieve.

[DiggyHopeful]

.