PSLF revisions: New budget proposal screws anyone in PI. Forum

[Lightworks]

Let's be clear that any form of welfare (and yes that's what the program is) can be eliminated at the drop of a hat. Loan forgiveness is another market-breaker that moves around costs from where they should be. If government/non-profit jobs aren't competitive on their own then the market should respond to that.

If it doesn't go away now, you can be that the seed has been planted. Counting on the government to pay your debts is probably a bad plan.

Twenty, could you put in the OP that egregious bootstrapper sympathizers will be the first to go in the revolution? We should give fair notice.

I'm just confused by the statement of "the market will take care of it" in this context.

It's a reflex. Keeps them from having to think too hard.

[SemperLegal]

Let's be clear that any form of welfare (and yes that's what the program is) can be eliminated at the drop of a hat. Loan forgiveness is another market-breaker that moves around costs from where they should be. If government/non-profit jobs aren't competitive on their own then the market should respond to that.

If it doesn't go away now, you can be that the seed has been planted. Counting on the government to pay your debts is probably a bad plan.

Twenty, could you put in the OP that egregious bootstrapper sympathizers will be the first to go in the revolution? We should give fair notice.

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

[LSL]

Let's be clear that any form of welfare (and yes that's what the program is) can be eliminated at the drop of a hat. Loan forgiveness is another market-breaker that moves around costs from where they should be. If government/non-profit jobs aren't competitive on their own then the market should respond to that.

If it doesn't go away now, you can be that the seed has been planted. Counting on the government to pay your debts is probably a bad plan.

Twenty, could you put in the OP that egregious bootstrapper sympathizers will be the first to go in the revolution? We should give fair notice.

I'm just confused by the statement of "the market will take care of it" in this context.

Whether the poster is an idiot or a troll, the reasoning of both groups are difficult to figure out .

[Tanicius]

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

Fine and true. A solution is important and has my full support, but it should not involve fucking over the people who already took out their loans. If this measure had passed BEFORE I took out my loans, then I probably would have received better grants and scholarships from schools after expressing my demonstable career interest in public defense.

[LSL]

Let's be clear that any form of welfare (and yes that's what the program is) can be eliminated at the drop of a hat. Loan forgiveness is another market-breaker that moves around costs from where they should be. If government/non-profit jobs aren't competitive on their own then the market should respond to that.

If it doesn't go away now, you can be that the seed has been planted. Counting on the government to pay your debts is probably a bad plan.

Twenty, could you put in the OP that egregious bootstrapper sympathizers will be the first to go in the revolution? We should give fair notice.

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

I can see the boomer-ishness in it. And word, PSLF creates horrible incentives. But the whole system is fucked and we all know it. Students, having been reamed by the inflated higher education/Sallie Mae/anti-gubmit subsidization industrial complex for years now and should finally catch a break. And, I think it's indicative of the shittiness that is our higher ed system compared to other countries that generally DON'T think it's a good idea to burden their young people with this expenditure that paying $60,000 under PSLF instead of $100,000-$200,000 is considered "a break".

[nouseforaname123]

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

Fine and true. A solution is important and has my full support, but it should not involve fucking over the people who already took out their loans. If this measure had passed BEFORE I took out my loans, then I probably would have received better grants and scholarships from schools after expressing my demonstable career interest in public defense.

Huh? This program contributed to ever-increasing tuition rates that screwed over a lot of us who had no interest in any type of reduced repayment plans. You really didn't give a shit when your do-gooder streak screwed over the rest of us, did you?

[SemperLegal]

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

Fine and true. A solution is important and has my full support, but it should not involve fucking over the people who already took out their loans. If this measure had passed BEFORE I took out my loans, then I probably would have received better grants and scholarships from schools after expressing my demonstable career interest in public defense.

I truly sympathize, you made a calculated, intelligent choice based on trusting that the US government would not default on its obligations, literally considered the closest thing to a guarantee in the world of finance. If you worked on the assumption that PSLF wasn't a thing, and scrimped/saved your way through law school, you would have kicked yourself when the cancellation of debt occured.

However, that's only a reason to grandfather existing debt. I think we have to end the program for any non-disbursed loans. People who already went through the admissions cycle should have to resubmit next year with a new set of assumptions and 2/3/4 year students should their debt split in half, because they still have the option to drop out or transfer down.

[Tanicius]

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

Fine and true. A solution is important and has my full support, but it should not involve fucking over the people who already took out their loans. If this measure had passed BEFORE I took out my loans, then I probably would have received better grants and scholarships from schools after expressing my demonstable career interest in public defense.

Huh? This program contributed to ever-increasing tuition rates that screwed over a lot of us who had no interest in any type of reduced repayment plans. You really didn't give a shit when your do-gooder streak screwed over the rest of us, did you?

Sorry, what? The less than 5-10% of students at each law school who relied on PSLF in the last four years did not cause tuition to rise from 30,000 to 50,000. That was a huge combination of factors, mostly due to GradPlus and the mythical image of a law degree as a magic carpet ticket to riches.

[patogordo]

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

Fine and true. A solution is important and has my full support, but it should not involve fucking over the people who already took out their loans. If this measure had passed BEFORE I took out my loans, then I probably would have received better grants and scholarships from schools after expressing my demonstable career interest in public defense.

Huh? This program contributed to ever-increasing tuition rates that screwed over a lot of us who had no interest in any type of reduced repayment plans. You really didn't give a shit when your do-gooder streak screwed over the rest of us, did you?

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/re ... n-Tracker/

just look at that EXPLOSION in law school tuition after 2007

[SemperLegal]

Let's be clear that any form of welfare (and yes that's what the program is) can be eliminated at the drop of a hat. Loan forgiveness is another market-breaker that moves around costs from where they should be. If government/non-profit jobs aren't competitive on their own then the market should respond to that.

If it doesn't go away now, you can be that the seed has been planted. Counting on the government to pay your debts is probably a bad plan.

Twenty, could you put in the OP that egregious bootstrapper sympathizers will be the first to go in the revolution? We should give fair notice.

To be fair, we are booming pretty hard right now. It's an "entitlement" that we did not pay into, that is clearly economically unsustainable, and will screw over our children to a massive degree, but we are ready to go to the mattresses to ensure that it doesn't pass.

Just be honest and demand an additional grant for PI, PSLF is a horrible system because neither party with any control (the student or the school) has literally ANY incentive to keep prices down.

I can see the boomer-ishness in it. And word, PSLF creates horrible incentives. But the whole system is fucked and we all know it. Students, having been reamed by the inflated higher education/Sallie Mae/anti-gubmit subsidization industrial complex for years now and should finally catch a break. And, I think it's indicative of the shittiness that is our higher ed system compared to other countries that generally DON'T think it's a good idea to burden their young people with this expenditure that paying $60,000 under PSLF instead of $100,000-$200,000 is considered "a break".

This is an under statement. A law school could charge $100 million a year in tuition and promise a 10 year fellowship after graduation without it costing the student or the school a single dollar.

You know who it does cost: our kids when debt servicing eats up 80% of the federal budget.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Amen to Tanicius and Cal Trask. Let the market take care of legal services for the indigent? lol no.

(Not even talking about me here because the Feds will have to hire and fed salaries are decent. It's the $40k legal aid jobs that are at issue, and a caste system isn't good policy.)

And I agree with those saying that PSLF doesn't have anywhere near as much to do with tuition inflation as easy student loans.

[SemperLegal]

Amen to Tanicius and Cal Trask. Let the market take care of legal services for the indigent? lol no.

(Not even talking about me here because the Feds will have to hire and fed salaries are decent. It's the $40k legal aid jobs that are at issue, and a caste system isn't good policy.)

And I agree with those saying that PSLF doesn't have anywhere near as much to do with tuition inflation as easy student loans.

Get rid of both. Subsidize tuition and possibly loans, don't cosign them to a limitless quantity. Both feed into the same system where no one has an ultimate stake in the game. I know the Subprime Crisis is the new Godwin's Law, but many of the same flaws are at play:

1. A worthy policy justification
2. Limited documents needed for loans
3. Ease of shifting risk to an under-regulated government entity with every incentive not to push for reform

[LSL]

I can see the boomer-ishness in it. And word, PSLF creates horrible incentives. But the whole system is fucked and we all know it. Students, having been reamed by the inflated higher education/Sallie Mae/anti-gubmit subsidization industrial complex for years now and should finally catch a break. And, I think it's indicative of the shittiness that is our higher ed system compared to other countries that generally DON'T think it's a good idea to burden their young people with this expenditure that paying $60,000 under PSLF instead of $100,000-$200,000 is considered "a break".

This is an under statement. A law school could charge $100 million a year in tuition and promise a 10 year fellowship after graduation without it costing the student or the school a single dollar.

You know who it does cost: our kids when debt servicing eats up 80% of the federal budget.

Totally in agreement. I think the greatest merit of PSLF is that it shifted the cost to the taxpayers rather than individuals. That's the way it should be IMO. However, the huge problem of course is that allowing people to borrow into infinity and higher education providers gobbling that GradPlus (and ParentPlus for undergrad) shit up do not have one incentive to keep tuition reasonable. We are cash walking through the door and that's it. PSLF as it is now is a bandaid on a bullet wound to the entire problem. Beyond grandfathering people, I can understand why it creates bad incentives and the argument that it should be scrapped as is and capped (though higher than $57,500). But, honestly, it wouldn't have to be that way if our tuition system wasn't so obscenely out of control and that's what I'd rather they address first than taking it out on those trying to assist non-profit/gov't workers. But yeah, if I had a dime for every time I wished the gov't thought about the shittiness of some of it's greatest campaign contributors, I guess I wouldn't need PSLF.

Edit: Sorry, for the rantiness/reiteration of well-known things, I'm sure we're all more or less on the same page here. Just wow, that this isn't discussed enough and we all know how important it is.

[SemperLegal]

I can see the boomer-ishness in it. And word, PSLF creates horrible incentives. But the whole system is fucked and we all know it. Students, having been reamed by the inflated higher education/Sallie Mae/anti-gubmit subsidization industrial complex for years now and should finally catch a break. And, I think it's indicative of the shittiness that is our higher ed system compared to other countries that generally DON'T think it's a good idea to burden their young people with this expenditure that paying $60,000 under PSLF instead of $100,000-$200,000 is considered "a break".

This is an under statement. A law school could charge $100 million a year in tuition and promise a 10 year fellowship after graduation without it costing the student or the school a single dollar.

You know who it does cost: our kids when debt servicing eats up 80% of the federal budget.

Totally in agreement. I think the greatest merit of PSLF is that it shifted the cost to the taxpayers rather than individuals. That's the way it should be IMO. However, the huge problem of course is that allowing people to borrow into infinity and higher education providers gobbling that GradPlus (and ParentPlus for undergrad) shit up do not have one incentive to keep tuition reasonable. We are cash walking through the door and that's it. PSLF as it is now is a bandaid on a bullet wound to the entire problem. Beyond grandfathering people, I can understand why it creates bad incentives and the argument that it should be scrapped as is and capped (though higher than $57,500). But, honestly, it wouldn't have to be that way if our tuition system wasn't so obscenely out of control and that's what I'd rather they address first than taking it out those trying to assist non-profit/gov't workers. But yeah, if I had a dime for every time I wished the gov't thought about the shittiness of some of it's greatest campaign contributors, I guess I wouldn't need PSLF.

Sounds great for some people, not so much for the millions of students out there who can't get PI/gov work. They get left holding the bag.

Also, if we want to shift the cost from students to taxpayers, it should be even-handed, controlled, and up front. PSLF was none of that.

Finally, $57,000 seems about right. That's significantly more than three times the inflation-adjusted amount that LST gives. Cut student loans and PSLF and let schools try to be as cost-efficient as they were in the past. Use the savings to actually directly fund educational infrastructure and training, rather than create a side pipeline that overly-emphasizes recruitment (i.e. huge campuses, law school housing, massive administration, and needlessly nice facilities)

[LSL]

Sounds great for some people, not so much for the millions of students out there who can't get PI/gov work. They get left holding the bag.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. That as taxpayers they would be left holding the bag? Their payment through taxes is a negligible (though not unimportant) burden compared to the mountains of debt non-profit and gov't workers would pay individually. They already will be holding the bag because schools (regardless of PSLF) have no reason to not jack up the cost of tuition infinitely (the actors the gov't should be regulating here).

[bjsesq]

Fuck all your broad policy analysis. All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

[kay2016]

Tagging.. I'll let you guys know if my senator gets back to me on this too

[Dingo Starr]

Fuck all your broad policy analysis. All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

Does that mean you heard back from your Senator's office already?

[bjsesq]

Fuck all your broad policy analysis. All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

Does that mean you heard back from your Senator's office already?

No. I will be talking to them at 330 est/230 cst. I will be a bit more chill than what you see here, promise.

[SemperLegal]

Sounds great for some people, not so much for the millions of students out there who can't get PI/gov work. They get left holding the bag.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. That as taxpayers they would be left holding the bag? Their payment through taxes is a negligible (though not unimportant) burden compared to the mountains of debt non-profit and gov't workers would pay individually. They already will be holding the bag because schools (regardless of PSLF) have no reason to not jack up the cost of tuition infinitely (the actors the gov't should be regulating here).

Students who have inflated tuition due to both programs, but don't qualify for PSLF.

Also, debt payments are an ever-increasing part of the budget, meaning every single federal agency has to make cuts since the US government essentially wrote a blank check with a limit of $1,164,550,548,908 (source: FinAid.org)


Total Interest Payments due by the Federal Government Each Year (Chart from Concord Coaltion, data from GAO)


Finally, yes the lawyers pay a large amount more, but they are the ones that end up with the degree. The common good is having quality lawyers for the indigent, government, and public interest and there better ways to achieve that goal without massive market distortion and unfunded liabilities.

[LSL]

All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

Where I'm at ultimately. I think the part in why this sentiment should not be seen as boomerish is that it is inherently fucked up to strap the amounts of debt onto young people that we do in this country. It's not the same as griping that medicare doesn't cover every single medical need imaginable. We're talking tuition and estimated COL for fucks sake. You tell me now I can't get the program I relied on for NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same level of relief in our peer countries because you can't fix the fucking system that's been broken forever and haha cuz it's easy to shit on unorganized students? Fuck you and your fucking bullshit, I will eat your fucking face.

[TigerDude]

Let's be clear that any form of welfare (and yes that's what the program is) can be eliminated at the drop of a hat. Loan forgiveness is another market-breaker that moves around costs from where they should be. If government/non-profit jobs aren't competitive on their own then the market should respond to that.

If it doesn't go away now, you can be that the seed has been planted. Counting on the government to pay your debts is probably a bad plan.

Twenty, could you put in the OP that egregious bootstrapper sympathizers will be the first to go in the revolution? We should give fair notice.

I'm just confused by the statement of "the market will take care of it" in this context.

There will either be some combination of fewer of them and/or paying more. The repayment plan moves the burden of decision from the individual entities.

[SemperLegal]

All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

Where I'm at ultimately. I think the part in why this sentiment should not be seen as boomerish is that it is inherently fucked up to strap the amounts of debt onto young people that we do in this country. It's not the same as griping that medicare doesn't cover every single medical need imaginable. We're talking tuition and estimated COL. You tell me now I can't get the program I relied on for NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same level of relief in our peer countries because you can't fix the fucking system that's been broken forever and haha cuz it's easy to shit on unorganized students? Fuck you and your fucking bullshit, I will eat your fucking face.

That's a huge jump in logic. Its one thing to say the government should pay for higher education, its another to say that the government should pay for your rent, food, clothes, etc. to an unregulated extent. If we really carried about being fair and not continuing an unfair system, why not just require law students to use TANF and section 8. Why do students get to go to the front of the line?

[Dingo Starr]

All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

You tell me now I can't get the program I relied on for NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same level of relief in our peer countries because you can't fix the fucking system that's been broken forever and haha cuz it's easy to shit on unorganized students? Fuck you and your fucking bullshit, I will eat your fucking face.

Hopefully you will also be a little more chill when calling your Senator and Representative's offices.
Please?

[anyriotgirl]

All I know: I took on 200k with this program in mind as a safety valve. I need it now, and I qualify for it. I don't give a fuck what it means for America. Suck my fucking poor dick with your legislative considerations.

Where I'm at ultimately. I think the part in why this sentiment should not be seen as boomerish is that it is inherently fucked up to strap the amounts of debt onto young people that we do in this country. It's not the same as griping that medicare doesn't cover every single medical need imaginable. We're talking tuition and estimated COL for fucks sake. You tell me now I can't get the program I relied on for NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same level of relief in our peer countries because you can't fix the fucking system that's been broken forever and haha cuz it's easy to shit on unorganized students? Fuck you and your fucking bullshit, I will eat your fucking face.

This is why we need to vote. I don't really care who you vote for, but get out there and do it. There's a reason politicians go around pandering to the boomers and the olds, and it's because those groups vote en mass.