AA URM Female chances at T14 Forum

[Ht2465]

2.9 GPA at top 10 university --> 3.0 LSAC GPA, 176 LSAT

softs : Over a year WE with a federal agency, (full and part- time), research in Society in Science division of my university, volunteer work abroad, involved in campus multi racial advocacy group, volunteer with non-profits, tutor and college advisor to at-risk college.

[vattah]

It's worth a shot. Your LSAT is really strong and your softs are great. I'd say that you have a shot at the T14, especially on the lower end. Your LSAT is above the median for all law schools so apply. Your URM status definitely helps. Is your major in STEM? If so, that increases your chances of acceptance significantly since STEM majors historically tend to have lower GPA's in general and law schools look favorably upon applicant with STEM degrees. Apply to t-14 schools and some safeties. HYS might be a reach, though.

[jgloster]

The person above me is lying. Law schools don't care about STEM majors. It's true that STEM majors are harder, but in the law school admissions process your degree program makes little to no difference.

[vattah]

The person above me is lying. Law schools don't care about STEM majors. It's true that STEM majors are harder, but in the law school admissions process your degree program makes little to no difference.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/ ... stem-sells
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markcohen1 ... -applying/
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016 ... ecruiting/

Law school is a numbers game but between an identical STEM and Liberal Arts applicant, I'm inclined to say that the STEM major is more likely to be accepted.

[nixy]

The person above me is lying. Law schools don't care about STEM majors. It's true that STEM majors are harder, but in the law school admissions process your degree program makes little to no difference.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/ ... stem-sells
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markcohen1 ... -applying/
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016 ... ecruiting/

Law school is a numbers game but between an identical STEM and Liberal Arts applicant, I'm inclined to say that the STEM major is more likely to be accepted.

The thing is that there are very few instances in which applicants are going to be identical apart from their major, and the person with a higher GPA/LSAT is still going to be picked sooner regardless of major.

[vattah]

The person above me is lying. Law schools don't care about STEM majors. It's true that STEM majors are harder, but in the law school admissions process your degree program makes little to no difference.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/ ... stem-sells
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markcohen1 ... -applying/
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016 ... ecruiting/

Law school is a numbers game but between an identical STEM and Liberal Arts applicant, I'm inclined to say that the STEM major is more likely to be accepted.

The thing is that there are very few instances in which applicants are going to be identical apart from their major, and the person with a higher GPA/LSAT is still going to be picked sooner regardless of major.

That's not true, people with lower LSAT or GPA's get accepted into law schools over people with higher LSAT'S/GPA's sometimes. Law schools do consider other factors in one's application rather than just the numbers. Who's to say whether one of the "softs" that is a deciding factor is your major choice sometimes? It's common knowledge that some law schools discriminate against certain majors, such as Pre-Law/Legal Studies, because of their ease. So why can't it be reversed for people who have tougher majors, especially if their LSAT scores indicates their capability?

[sparkytrainer]

The person above me is lying. Law schools don't care about STEM majors. It's true that STEM majors are harder, but in the law school admissions process your degree program makes little to no difference.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/ ... stem-sells
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markcohen1 ... -applying/
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016 ... ecruiting/

Law school is a numbers game but between an identical STEM and Liberal Arts applicant, I'm inclined to say that the STEM major is more likely to be accepted.

The thing is that there are very few instances in which applicants are going to be identical apart from their major, and the person with a higher GPA/LSAT is still going to be picked sooner regardless of major.

That's not true, people with lower LSAT or GPA's get accepted into law schools over people with higher LSAT'S/GPA's sometimes. Law schools do consider other factors in one's application rather than just the numbers. Who's to say whether one of the "softs" that are a deciding factor is your major choice sometimes? It's common knowledge that some law schools discriminate against certain majors, such as Pre-Law/Legal Studies, because of their ease. So why can't it be reversed for people who have tougher majors, especially if their LSAT scores indicates their capability?

Because there is a massive amount of data that proves schools don’t care about majors at all.

[nixy]

That's not true, people with lower LSAT or GPA's get accepted into law schools over people with higher LSAT'S/GPA's sometimes. Law schools do consider other factors in one's application rather than just the numbers. Who's to say whether one of the "softs" that is a deciding factor is your major choice sometimes? It's common knowledge that some law schools discriminate against certain majors, such as Pre-Law/Legal Studies, because of their ease. So why can't it be reversed for people who have tougher majors, especially if their LSAT scores indicates their capability?

What's your evidence that law schools discriminate against Pre-Law/Legal Studies? The only thing I've seen is that that major has the lowest LSAT scores (statistically), so isn't it just as likely that schools are actually discriminating against the low LSAT?

And the higher LSAT/GPA people may have had some kind of active red flags like C&F or bad LORs or a PS that offends adcomms or reflects an inability to write coherently or the like. I think that's different from saying the major elevated the lower score person. But mostly I don't actually agree that you can assume a STEM major is harder (for instance I know STEM majors who get bad grades in reading/writing heavy classes). A given STEM major at a specific school may be harder than a different given humanities major at a different school, but adcomms don't always have the info to evaluate that.

[AaronCarter]

2.9 GPA at top 10 university --> 3.0 LSAC GPA, 176 LSAT

softs : Over a year WE with a federal agency, (full and part- time), research in Society in Science division of my university, volunteer work abroad, involved in campus multi racial advocacy group, volunteer with non-profits, tutor and college advisor to at-risk college.

In throughout the entire t15-t14 with possible issues at the t4 and Berk.

[vattah]

That's not true, people with lower LSAT or GPA's get accepted into law schools over people with higher LSAT'S/GPA's sometimes. Law schools do consider other factors in one's application rather than just the numbers. Who's to say whether one of the "softs" that is a deciding factor is your major choice sometimes? It's common knowledge that some law schools discriminate against certain majors, such as Pre-Law/Legal Studies, because of their ease. So why can't it be reversed for people who have tougher majors, especially if their LSAT scores indicates their capability?

What's your evidence that law schools discriminate against Pre-Law/Legal Studies? The only thing I've seen is that that major has the lowest LSAT scores (statistically), so isn't it just as likely that schools are actually discriminating against the low LSAT?

And the higher LSAT/GPA people may have had some kind of active red flags like C&F or bad LORs or a PS that offends adcomms or reflects an inability to write coherently or the like. I think that's different from saying the major elevated the lower score person. But mostly I don't actually agree that you can assume a STEM major is harder (for instance I know STEM majors who get bad grades in reading/writing heavy classes). A given STEM major at a specific school may be harder than a different given humanities major at a different school, but adcomms don't always have the info to evaluate that.

https://lawschooli.com/best-majors-for-law-school/
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... law-school
https://abovethelaw.com/2009/09/dont-ma ... aw-school/
http://www.lawschoolexpert.com/best-maj ... pplicants/

That certainly could be the case, typically though, those majors are not seen as rigorous by adcomms and top undergrad programs don't tend to have them as a major choice.

And, that all factors into the subjectivity of law school admissions (beyond the numbers), those could be factors, just as major choice can be a factor. It's been shown that most law schools do make an effort to diversify their student body and major choice could be one way to do that. I agree, there is no way to quantify the difficulty of one's degree at one school VS another, but typically people tend to associate lower STEM GPA's with their difficulty, and regard STEM disciplines as more rigorous than Liberal Arts disciplines (exclusive of school name, rigor of program etc).

[nixy]

Well, typically you regard STEM degrees as more rigorous. Again, not everyone is going to agree with you.

Also those links are primarily discussing, again, the fact that CJ majors have the lowest LSAT scores. Personally I’ve never known what to do about the causation in that (does majoring in CJ cause you to have a lower score or do people with low LSAT ability choose CJ for whatever reason?).

Finally there is no evidence that the OP has a STEM major so all this is moot, and really people are best off treating their GPA as the same number regardless of major for purposes of choosing where to apply. I would never tell someone, “your numbers won’t get you into school x, but you’re a STEM major? Then you’re going to get into a completely different/higher range of schools!”

[vattah]

Well, typically you regard STEM degrees as more rigorous. Again, not everyone is going to agree with you.

Also those links are primarily discussing, again, the fact that CJ majors have the lowest LSAT scores. Personally I’ve never known what to do about the causation in that (does majoring in CJ cause you to have a lower score or do people with low LSAT ability choose CJ for whatever reason?).

Finally there is no evidence that the OP has a STEM major so all this is moot, and really people are best off treating their GPA as the same number regardless of major for purposes of choosing where to apply. I would never tell someone, “your numbers won’t get you into school x, but you’re a STEM major? Then you’re going to get into a completely different/higher range of schools!”

I never said anything about what I, personally, regard as rigorous or not. You'd be lying if you said you weren't aware of the general perception of STEM majors as being more rigorous than liberal arts majors, especially if you live in the States and especially such a technological age. Also, regardless of causation or effect, there are many sources that advise pre-law students not to major in those fields. The last bit I agree on. GPA should be of utmost importance regardless of major choice. What I said is that it is worth a shot to apply to a few reach schools as a STEM major, as they may stand a chance- the same thing I would say to any applicant.