URM Students--think long and hard about law school choices Forum

[DukeURMGrad]

Duke Law did NOTHING to help students with struggling grades. No support from academic affairs, whatsoever. We were left in the dust. I don't mean to fear monger or start an anti URM debate. I just want to warn other 0Ls to go into law school fully informed. The financial stakes are too great. I did okay, after 1L--3.1 GPA, but bombed some 2L year classes because i didn't get adequate course selection advice. I am not trying to make this into a "it's their fault argument." In my case, it was hard to focus and stay motivated when I saw others like my struggling as well. It's hard to feel like you can do well when you're one of 10 in a class of 200+. Professors did not give a f***. A lot of the replies to my post are from 0Ls or folks still in law school. Y'all have no idea what it's like when you graduate and need to pay down $100K debt. Doc review gigs are sporadic and provide NO benefits. I did not mean to knock Howard in any way. I just meant to say that I feel like my job prospects are on par with people from T2 and T3 schools despite all the TLS hype. If you do not come from money, go for the free ride ALWAYS. it is always better. If you must go to law school in this economy, please do not spend more than 60-70K, period. With my debts, I will be paying them down until I'm probably in my 50's. The thought of working in legal aid or a public defenders office IS NOT FOR ME. i want to be part of the solution, not the problem. For those who understand crime law, you'll see why I have a beef with PDs. These jobs are stressful and often pay the same as entry level college jobs. LRAPs are almost a trap.

I would say maybe 40% of the urms graduated with jobs--not all of them in big law. Many of them were 1 year local clerkships. I am class of 2011.

I think more recent black law grads will share my opinion. The idea of hustling for a job doesn't exist in this economy. WTF? 0LS have no right to comment on how legal hiring works or law school culture--you just don't know yet unless you have very close association with lawyers.

Maybe it is different at other schools, i don't know. The location of Duke is horrible for networking for jobs in DC or NY. The school likes to think the name travels well, but it really doesn't. Again, I am sure any recent Duke Law URM will cosign with my opinion. If not, let them speak up.

[Helicio]

Duke Law did NOTHING to help students with struggling grades. No support from academic affairs, whatsoever. We were left in the dust. I don't mean to fear monger or start an anti URM debate. I just want to warn other 0Ls to go into law school fully informed. The financial stakes are too great. I did okay, after 1L--3.1 GPA, but bombed some 2L year classes because i didn't get adequate course selection advice. I am not trying to make this into a "it's their fault argument." In my case, it was hard to focus and stay motivated when I saw others like my struggling as well. It's hard to feel like you can do well when you're one of 10 in a class of 200+. Professors did not give a f***. A lot of the replies to my post are from 0Ls or folks still in law school. Y'all have no idea what it's like when you graduate and need to pay down $100K debt. Doc review gigs are sporadic and provide NO benefits. I did not mean to knock Howard in any way. I just meant to say that I feel like my job prospects are on par with people with T2 and T3 schools despite all the TLS hype. If you do not come from money, go for the free ride ALWAYS. it is always better.

I think more recent black law grads will share my opinion. The idea of hustling for a job doesn't exist in this economy. WTF? 0LS have no right to comment on how legal hiring works or law school culture--you just don't know yet unless you have very close association with lawyers.

Okay, but your original post was making Duke Law sound racist, which seems absolutely ridiculous for anyone who has been in that place for an extended period of time.

[tooswolle]

The OP has only two posts ... Smells like a troll. On the off shoot that it is a real story, it tends to give credit to the sanders study/ mismatch theory that many posit. Now I personally don't agree with them or believe in them but they sure as hell scare me if I'm true. If anything this post should be cautionary for people to study in schools where they are qualified to study. Fortunately for me my numbers are on par with other student numbers. So it'll come down to who gets it better not a mismatch in competencies.

[LSAT>LDAC]

You didn't even bring up inadequate academic support in your previous post, and now it seems overtly foundational with respect to your situation.

YOU ARE NOT A FAILURE. You did terrible in law school; just like Walt Disney was fired from a news editor because he "lacked imagination," Stephen spielberg was denied twice from USC film school, and MJ was cut from his high school basketball team.

You made it to and through Michigan and have the ability to perform well there, you said it yourself. So stop making excuses because you have the ability to change your circumstance.

NO it will not be as easy as if your were in the top 15%. NO it will not be easy; period. It is possible; and has happened before.

Excuses are tools of the weak and incompetent, they build bridges to nowhere.

[Helicio]

The OP has only two posts ... Smells like a troll. On the off shoot that it is a real story, it tends to give credit to the sanders study/ mismatch theory that many posit. Now I personally don't agree with them or believe in them but they sure as hell scare me if I'm true. If anything this post should be cautionary for people to study in schools where they are qualified to study. Fortunately for me my numbers are on par with other student numbers. So it'll come down to who gets it better not a mismatch in competencies.

URMs who get in partially due to URM boost can do just as well as non-URMs in law school. I know plenty of URMs who are raping lawl school.

I don't necessarily love AA because I do not benefit from it, but the OP smells like the biggest troll in Middle Earth. The mismatch stuff is BS.

[Bildungsroman]

I don't necessarily love AA

I like where this thread is going.

[DukeURMGrad]

lets all be honest, there are VERY few URMS at T14s who's numbers match the entering non-URM class. Yes, understanding the nature of the curve is VERY important when considering law schools--but more importantly, think about the cost benefit of the programs. I am arguing that the cost benefit of Duke Law education in my experience has been next to nil in my first year. I understand not everyone will have this experience--but I hope my story will help other URMS take a closer look at this school and other schools in the T14. You pay for the privilege to attend, but I am not sure how the privilege materializes in life real, yet. I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm a troll. Duke per se is not racist, but racist students go there. I am sure they exist at every school, but the location and status of the school seems to attract more ignorant folks, Imo

I dont wanna turn this into an affirmative action debate. I just want to encourage others to avoid Duke Law, if they can. There is nothing positive there for URMS.

[Helicio]

lets all be honest, there are VERY few URMS at T14s who's numbers match the entering non-URM class. Yes, understanding the nature of the curve is VERY important when considering law schools--but more importantly, think about the cost benefit of the programs. I am arguing that the cost benefit of Duke Law education in my experience has been next to nil in my first year. I understand not everyone will have this experience--but I hope my story will help other URMS take a closer look at this school and other schools in the T14. You pay for the privilege to attend, but I am not sure how the privilege materializes in life real, yet. I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm a troll. Duke per se is not racist, but racist students go there. I am sure they exist at every school, but the location and status of the school seems to attract more ignorant folks, Imo

I dont wanna turn this into an affirmative action debate. I just want to encourage others to avoid Duke Law, if they can. There is nothing positive there for URMS.

This is BS. Duke Law is not anymore racist than any other T14 school.

[sunynp]

Not that this helps but you graduated at a terrible time for hiring. There are a lot of people from top schools who don't have jobs from the class of 2010. There just aren't enough jobs.

I understand about your feeling that it was a waste of time and money. I hope you can get IBR to help you with your loans.

[dowu]

lets all be honest, there are VERY few URMS at T14s who's numbers match the entering non-URM class. Yes, understanding the nature of the curve is VERY important when considering law schools--but more importantly, think about the cost benefit of the programs. I am arguing that the cost benefit of Duke Law education in my experience has been next to nil in my first year. I understand not everyone will have this experience--but I hope my story will help other URMS take a closer look at this school and other schools in the T14. You pay for the privilege to attend, but I am not sure how the privilege materializes in life real, yet. I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm a troll. Duke per se is not racist, but racist students go there. I am sure they exist at every school, but the location and status of the school seems to attract more ignorant folks, Imo

I dont wanna turn this into an affirmative action debate. I just want to encourage others to avoid Duke Law, if they can. There is nothing posit there for URMS.

This is retarded. Your purpose from this thread (the way I see it) is something that we, TLS community, have already known about and it boils down to this:

Dont go to a law school taking in boatloads of debt. I do believe, however, that this does not apply to a few schools in the T7. I know I would be damn sure on going to H/Y/S at sticker if I could get in.

You also graduated at almost the worst time possible. HTH.

[Helicio]

lets all be honest, there are VERY few URMS at T14s who's numbers match the entering non-URM class. Yes, understanding the nature of the curve is VERY important when considering law schools--but more importantly, think about the cost benefit of the programs. I am arguing that the cost benefit of Duke Law education in my experience has been next to nil in my first year. I understand not everyone will have this experience--but I hope my story will help other URMS take a closer look at this school and other schools in the T14. You pay for the privilege to attend, but I am not sure how the privilege materializes in life real, yet. I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm a troll. Duke per se is not racist, but racist students go there. I am sure they exist at every school, but the location and status of the school seems to attract more ignorant folks, Imo

I dont wanna turn this into an affirmative action debate. I just want to encourage others to avoid Duke Law, if they can. There is nothing posit there for URMS.

This is retarded. Your purpose from this thread (the way I see it) is something that we, TLS community, have already known about and it boils down to this:

Dont go to a law school taking in boatloads of debt. I do believe, however, that this does not apply to a few schools in the T7. I know I would be damn sure on going to H/Y/S at sticker if I could get in.

You also graduated at almost the worst time possible. HTH.

+1

[sunynp]

lets all be honest, there are VERY few URMS at T14s who's numbers match the entering non-URM class. Yes, understanding the nature of the curve is VERY important when considering law schools--but more importantly, think about the cost benefit of the programs. I am arguing that the cost benefit of Duke Law education in my experience has been next to nil in my first year. I understand not everyone will have this experience--but I hope my story will help other URMS take a closer look at this school and other schools in the T14. You pay for the privilege to attend, but I am not sure how the privilege materializes in life real, yet. I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm a troll. Duke per se is not racist, but racist students go there. I am sure they exist at every school, but the location and status of the school seems to attract more ignorant folks, Imo

I dont wanna turn this into an affirmative action debate. I just want to encourage others to avoid Duke Law, if they can. There is nothing posit there for URMS.

This is retarded. Your purpose from this thread (the way I see it) is something that we, TLS community, have already known about and it boils down to this:

Dont go to a law school taking in boatloads of debt. I do believe, however, that this does not apply to a few schools in the T7. I know I would be damn sure on going to H/Y/S at sticker if I could get in.

I don't agree that everyone at TLS agrees with the statement of only going to HYS or a few schools in the T6 at sticker. There are several threads here where people have calculated that it can be worth a lot of debt (over $200,000) to go to law school at sticker. I'm sure that includes Duke.

I don't want to derail OPs thread though. Just wanted OP to know that there are plenty of people here who would have gone to Duke at sticker when she enrolled and there are plenty of people here who are doing it now. ( I might be wrong but I don't remember seeing a community statement where people decided that Duke is not worth sticker. ) If OP was asking for advice now, I am not sure people would argue that the local school for free is a better bet than Duke. If she was asking for advice now, I know that at least some people would advocate paying sticker at Duke over the local school for free.

[rad lulz]

Duke Law did NOTHING to help students with struggling grades. No support from academic affairs, whatsoever. We were left in the dust. I don't mean to fear monger or start an anti URM debate. I just want to warn other 0Ls to go into law school fully informed. The financial stakes are too great. I did okay, after 1L--3.1 GPA, but bombed some 2L year classes because i didn't get adequate course selection advice. I am not trying to make this into a "it's their fault argument." In my case, it was hard to focus and stay motivated when I saw others like my struggling as well. It's hard to feel like you can do well when you're one of 10 in a class of 200+. Professors did not give a f***. A lot of the replies to my post are from 0Ls or folks still in law school. Y'all have no idea what it's like when you graduate and need to pay down $100K debt. Doc review gigs are sporadic and provide NO benefits. I did not mean to knock Howard in any way. I just meant to say that I feel like my job prospects are on par with people from T2 and T3 schools despite all the TLS hype. If you do not come from money, go for the free ride ALWAYS. it is always better. If you must go to law school in this economy, please do not spend more than 60-70K, period. With my debts, I will be paying them down until I'm probably in my 50's. The thought of working in legal aid or a public defenders office IS NOT FOR ME. i want to be part of the solution, not the problem. For those who understand crime law, you'll see why I have a beef with PDs. These jobs are stressful and often pay the same as entry level college jobs. LRAPs are almost a trap.

I would say maybe 40% of the urms graduated with jobs--not all of them in big law. Many of them were 1 year local clerkships. I am class of 2011.

I think more recent black law grads will share my opinion. The idea of hustling for a job doesn't exist in this economy. WTF? 0LS have no right to comment on how legal hiring works or law school culture--you just don't know yet unless you have very close association with lawyers.

Maybe it is different at other schools, i don't know. The location of Duke is horrible for networking for jobs in DC or NY. The school likes to think the name travels well, but it really doesn't. Again, I am sure any recent Duke Law URM will cosign with my opinion. If not, let them speak up.

Why is being a PD or in legal aid being part of the problem, not the solution?

[Nightrunner]

In what law classes are there that many opportunities for racism, that it would be such a distraction? In 1L, I could see that coming up sometimes in crim because there's definitely some material covering race in the criminal justice system, but is OP really claiming that people were constantly making racist comments in contracts, property, torts, civpro, or LRW?

Dude, Property is the most racist class in the law school curriculum.

[Bildungsroman]

In what law classes are there that many opportunities for racism, that it would be such a distraction? In 1L, I could see that coming up sometimes in crim because there's definitely some material covering race in the criminal justice system, but is OP really claiming that people were constantly making racist comments in contracts, property, torts, civpro, or LRW?

Dude, Property is the most racist class in the law school curriculum.

You were adequately compensated!

[DukeURMGrad]

Duke Law did NOTHING to help students with struggling grades. No support from academic affairs, whatsoever. We were left in the dust. I don't mean to fear monger or start an anti URM debate. I just want to warn other 0Ls to go into law school fully informed. The financial stakes are too great. I did okay, after 1L--3.1 GPA, but bombed some 2L year classes because i didn't get adequate course selection advice. I am not trying to make this into a "it's their fault argument." In my case, it was hard to focus and stay motivated when I saw others like my struggling as well. It's hard to feel like you can do well when you're one of 10 in a class of 200+. Professors did not give a f***. A lot of the replies to my post are from 0Ls or folks still in law school. Y'all have no idea what it's like when you graduate and need to pay down $100K debt. Doc review gigs are sporadic and provide NO benefits. I did not mean to knock Howard in any way. I just meant to say that I feel like my job prospects are on par with people from T2 and T3 schools despite all the TLS hype. If you do not come from money, go for the free ride ALWAYS. it is always better. If you must go to law school in this economy, please do not spend more than 60-70K, period. With my debts, I will be paying them down until I'm probably in my 50's. The thought of working in legal aid or a public defenders office IS NOT FOR ME. i want to be part of the solution, not the problem. For those who understand crime law, you'll see why I have a beef with PDs. These jobs are stressful and often pay the same as entry level college jobs. LRAPs are almost a trap.

I would say maybe 40% of the urms graduated with jobs--not all of them in big law. Many of them were 1 year local clerkships. I am class of 2011.

I think more recent black law grads will share my opinion. The idea of hustling for a job doesn't exist in this economy. WTF? 0LS have no right to comment on how legal hiring works or law school culture--you just don't know yet unless you have very close association with lawyers.

Maybe it is different at other schools, i don't know. The location of Duke is horrible for networking for jobs in DC or NY. The school likes to think the name travels well, but it really doesn't. Again, I am sure any recent Duke Law URM will cosign with my opinion. If not, let them speak up.

Why is being a PD or in legal aid being part of the problem, not the solution?

These are personal peeves I have about these sectors of law. Being a PD isn't about helping people win liberty--it's more like saying some crazy formalities in court while the judge determines the sentence. I think it's an important job but they aren't very effective at mitigating down sentences or helping people avoid jail time. It's all about fueling the prison industrial complex, which unfortunately impacts the black community in disproportionately numbers. I went to law school to unite black families, not tear them up. DAs so a lot more damage.

I have way more respect for legal aid lawyers--but they are often limited by funding and other bureaucracy. Also, I'm not a fan of band aid community lawyering. It's helping an individual client but not addressing the larger structural issue about why their problem (access to healthcare, lack of housing, etc) exists in the first place. They work long hours and get burned out quickly. It's not that different from big law, in that sense. I don't know, I just want to feel like I'm making a macro difference. To each his own. Both of these seem like white do-gooder jobs, but I don't know how much good they are actually doing.

Most LRAP/IBR beneficiaries end up in one of these fields. It's hard to get an entry level legal policy job with a nonprofit.

[LSAT>LDAC]

I like where this thread is going.

[ben4847]

Outside of the racism you talk about at Duke (which doesn't necessarily apply to other law schools), I don't see how any of what you say is URM, black, or even minority specific. And just because you had a bad outcome makes law not a good career choice for anyone ever?

Your post comes off as entitled. You don't understand how they were preferred over you? How about grades, interviewing skills, and connections? School prestige is not the be all, end all. If you can't fathom that then there's a decent chance you didn't come off well when interviewing.

Lay off her. The post comes across quite sincere, and she is obviously in pain.
She said she knows exactly why she isn't getting hired; she says she has bad grades. She's quite legitimately complaining about the fact that a 150k education at a top school can be worthless if you finish at the bottom of the class; something which happens to a substantial amount of students every year.

[IsTheFatLadySinging]

Outside of the racism you talk about at Duke (which doesn't necessarily apply to other law schools), I don't see how any of what you say is URM, black, or even minority specific. And just because you had a bad outcome makes law not a good career choice for anyone ever?

Your post comes off as entitled. You don't understand how they were preferred over you? How about grades, interviewing skills, and connections? School prestige is not the be all, end all. If you can't fathom that then there's a decent chance you didn't come off well when interviewing.

Lay off her. The post comes across quite sincere, and she is obviously in pain.
She said she knows exactly why she isn't getting hired; she says she has bad grades. She's quite legitimately complaining about the fact that a 150k education at a top school can be worthless if you finish at the bottom of the class; something which happens to a substantial amount of students every year.

I concur with the statement above. I think just the whole URM/racist spin on it kind of annoyed people. I felt like I was reading an Occupy post.

[shoeshine]

OP's experience is not representative of what happens to URMs at T14 schools. I have had the opposite experience in law school so far.

However, I do not go to Duke so maybe things are really bad there. It really sounds like the OP got into law school at the wrong time because Duke's placement stats have been terrible during the recession.

[sunynp]

Outside of the racism you talk about at Duke (which doesn't necessarily apply to other law schools), I don't see how any of what you say is URM, black, or even minority specific. And just because you had a bad outcome makes law not a good career choice for anyone ever?

Your post comes off as entitled. You don't understand how they were preferred over you? How about grades, interviewing skills, and connections? School prestige is not the be all, end all. If you can't fathom that then there's a decent chance you didn't come off well when interviewing.

Lay off her. The post comes across quite sincere, and she is obviously in pain.
She said she knows exactly why she isn't getting hired; she says she has bad grades. She's quite legitimately complaining about the fact that a 150k education at a top school can be worthless if you finish at the bottom of the class; something which happens to a substantial amount of students every year.

I concur with the statement above. I think just the whole URM/racist spin on it kind of annoyed people. I felt like I was reading an Occupy post.

I thought she directed her post to URMs because this is the URM forum. That would make sense. I feel that racism is subjective so I think she can post her experiences.

But it is true, and maybe helpful to OP, that people on TLS understand that the employment fiasco of the class of 2011 (Campos claims that 1/3 of the grads got real jobs, not sure of the percentage of Duke grads) hit pretty much everyone hard. Without grades or connections or going to Yale, an unexpected number of people are struggling to find jobs. (unexpected as of the time they enrolled, it is SOP now.)

It doesn't hurt to remind people of the economic reality of losing the law school gamble. Again, that gamble was considered to be much smaller when OP started school.

[bk1]

She said she knows exactly why she isn't getting hired;

She knows exactly why? Actually it seems to me that she says she doesn't understand.

I am not trying to act superior, but i DONT understand why they are preferred over over.

[ahnhub]

If OP is a real person, she had results which I would classify as unusually bad for a Duke graduate, even in 2011: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata

96% of people were employed at the 9-month mark, with 13 of those in short-term positions. I'm sure lots of those were jobs people didn't imagine themselves doing when they decided to go to Duke Law, but they were employed (OP says she wasn't until a year out, and she ended up in a non-legal job), and 57% of the entire class was either working at a big law firm or a federal clerkships.

[rad lulz]

These are personal peeves I have about these sectors of law. Being a PD isn't about helping people win liberty--it's more like saying some crazy formalities in court while the judge determines the sentence. I think it's an important job but they aren't very effective at mitigating down sentences or helping people avoid jail time. It's all about fueling the prison industrial complex, which unfortunately impacts the black community in disproportionately numbers. I went to law school to unite black families, not tear them up. DAs so a lot more damage.

I have way more respect for legal aid lawyers--but they are often limited by funding and other bureaucracy. Also, I'm not a fan of band aid community lawyering. It's helping an individual client but not addressing the larger structural issue about why their problem (access to healthcare, lack of housing, etc) exists in the first place. They work long hours and get burned out quickly. It's not that different from big law, in that sense. I don't know, I just want to feel like I'm making a macro difference. To each his own. Both of these seem like white do-gooder jobs, but I don't know how much good they are actually doing.

Most LRAP/IBR beneficiaries end up in one of these fields. It's hard to get an entry level legal policy job with a nonprofit.

Your problem with PDs is that they don't effectively mitigate sentences when the vast majority of Ds did the conduct for which they were charged, while PD departments tend to be overworked and underfunded? And because PDs are intentionally funneling people into the prison-industrial complex? Did you read Gideon?

You problem with legal aid lawyers is that they get burned out and are underfunded?

That's why you don't want to do those jobs? Too good to work jobs that make real differences in people's lives because you want to make a macro difference?

You sound like an entitled shithead. This is sublimely idiotic. I would gather part of the reason you have trouble with the job search is overwhelming idiocy.

[sunynp]

If OP is a real person, she had results which I would classify as unusually bad for a Duke graduate, even in 2011: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata

96% of people were employed at the 9-month mark, with 13 of those in short-term positions. I'm sure lots of those were jobs people didn't imagine themselves doing when they decided to go to Duke Law, but they were employed (OP says she wasn't until a year out, and she ended up in a non-legal job), and 57% of the entire class was either working at a big law firm or a federal clerkships.

I'll be looking forward to LST's take on those numbers. There is always more to be seen behind the surface, and I don't trust any schools reporting. Not sure why OP didn't get a school fellowship (13 people), but I don't think those numbers should count as employed anyway. If you add the unemployed, unknown, school fellowship and 2 to 10 lawyer firms you get about 15% of the class.

If OP had joined with a friend and started a law firm, she would have been counted as employed, even if she had no income.

If she had taken a job with Starbucks, assuming there is one in her neighborhood, she would be counted in business and industry.

The most telling thing of that graph is the difference in 2009 and 2011. In 2009 there were 2 people in 2 to 10 lawyer firms ( a total of 7 people in firms of 100 people or less) and 111 people in firms of 500 or more. In 2011 there were 12 in 2 to 10 lawyer firms ( 28 in firms of 100 people or less) and 66 people in firms of 500 or more. And the class of 2011 graduated 12 fewer people. Just looking at the drop in numbers shows the impact of the economy on hiring after OP started school.