URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread Forum

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You would turn down YSH for...(choose up to 4)

Hamilton @ CLS
46
21%
Ruby @ Chicago
33
15%
AnBryce/RTK @ NYU
29
13%
Levy @ Penn (LOL, no URM in history has ever gotten one)
14
6%
Dillard/Darrow/Full Scholarship @ UVA/Mich/Berk
26
12%
Mordecai/Full Scholly/Hughes/Full Scholly @ Duke/NW/Cornell/GULC
23
11%
Full @ Texas/UCLA/Vandy
10
5%
F* that dude...literally nothing could keep me from YSH. Debt be damned!
38
17%
 
Total votes: 219

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Iam3hunna

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Iam3hunna » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:31 pm

fliptrip wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:
Nlawsing wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:
magnum_law wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:In at Harvard! Still hasn't fully sunk in though. Amazing
Congrats!! Mind sharing the approx range of your stats? Give us hope!
+1 & Congratulations!
Sorry bout that, tried to do it on my phone but kept messing up. Stats are 164/ 3.7. Any other Q's just ask!
Are you going to put us all through the "oh my god, I don't know if I'm going to Harvard thing, or are you just going to cut to the chase and sign your name"?
Probably the former :lol:

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:33 pm

I can't wait...where the hell else do you think you're going?

would you consider...STANFORD?!

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Iam3hunna » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:40 pm

fliptrip wrote:I can't wait...where the hell else do you think you're going?

would you consider...STANFORD?!
Lol hell yes I would! Also, if I am so fortunate to receive Anbryce I feel like id be in a very sticky situation.

PS: I will make a thread demanding you to opine on my options later on. I will be very upset if you refuse.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by jmj2254 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:45 pm

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:46 pm

Iam3hunna wrote:
fliptrip wrote:I can't wait...where the hell else do you think you're going?

would you consider...STANFORD?!
Lol hell yes I would! Also, if I am so fortunate to receive Anbryce I feel like id be in a very sticky situation.

PS: I will make a thread demanding you to opine on my options later on. I will be very upset if you refuse.
Aw damn, you're an AnBryce finalist? Two distinguished and great URMs, who have disappeared, Tr3 and Jemthey both took the AnBryce and I think Jemthey turned down Harvard to do it. So, you may be right.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:48 pm

jmj2254 wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:
fliptrip wrote:I can't wait...where the hell else do you think you're going?

would you consider...STANFORD?!
Lol hell yes I would! Also, if I am so fortunate to receive Anbryce I feel like id be in a very sticky situation.

PS: I will make a thread demanding you to opine on my options later on. I will be very upset if you refuse.
Same position here. Interested to know what your thoughts are.
Which position, friend? Are you choosing between Harvard and STANFORD? Or are you on the cusp of the AnBryce?

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by jmj2254 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:49 pm

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Iam3hunna » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:53 pm

fliptrip wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:
fliptrip wrote:I can't wait...where the hell else do you think you're going?

would you consider...STANFORD?!
Lol hell yes I would! Also, if I am so fortunate to receive Anbryce I feel like id be in a very sticky situation.

PS: I will make a thread demanding you to opine on my options later on. I will be very upset if you refuse.
Aw damn, you're an AnBryce finalist? Two distinguished and great URMs, who have disappeared, Tr3 and Jemthey both took the AnBryce and I think Jemthey turned down Harvard to do it. So, you may be right.
Yea I have my interview at the end of March!

And I Pm'd Tr3 to talk to him about his decision which he was very very happy with. So it does complicate things (If I get it of course).

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:22 pm

Good!

First, we have to start with a discussion of who you are. If you're the type who keeps it in the middle of the road and is dedicated to making the best decision in all cases, then you take the AnBryce hands down. NYU can get you a good-paying job and who knows how long you'll survive in that good job, but it's more than likely you'll be on a great career path. The fact you'll do it while limiting your debt load just reinforces how great of a decision this is.

If you're still here, that means you are willing to take a less objectively wise course to fulfill some other need/desire/ambition of yours. There is no question that Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are the best. Going to Columbia, Chicago, NYU and the like is fine, but they aren't HYS. Every single person who wants to cry otherwise isn't in the club and that's how it is. I seriously wonder how many people hate on those who aspire to go to HYS actually turned HYS down to go to their school. I am sure there are folks who took the $$ and ran, but those folks I think know they left something behind. You will pay dearly to be in the club, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit to being in it. Also, you're a URM. URMs already have to deal with pre-conceived notions about our ability/qualifications/competence, so we actually gain greater benefit from having Harvard, Yale or Stanford on our resumes than non-URM students. I'm telling you, I'd much rather be the black dude trying to get in the door with Harvard attached to my name than trying use NYU. One other thing...with HYS being the most exclusive and elite fora for legal education, we almost have an obligation to go and represent and prove that we belong. If we all just take the money and head off to NYU (sorry NYU) or UVA, who's that going to leave in our places at these schools? Remember, the pool of highly qualified and talented URMs is shallow. That Harvard seat you vacate could be occupied by someone else who is a hot fucking mess.

Now, on to the horses.

The Stanford v. Harvard question is a tough one and since I'm some admissions cycle junkie I have the benefit of having investigated the URM situation at both schools extensively. Stanford's biggest issue is its size. There's not many students at SLS and thus there's just not that many URMs. That means the vibe can really vary class to class--you could have a real tight BLSA/URM thing going on or you could have a very diffuse and disjointed group. I don't think you're nearly as likely to encounter straight ignorance at Stanford, because California and I also don't think you'll get as many southern folks with last names for first names who went to big state U and allow their insecurity to boil over into attacking and feeling threatened by URMs. That person is definitely well represented at HLS and you are going to have to deal with them. HLS of course is a much bigger school and consequently, achieves a critical mass of URMs that all but guarantees that you'll find a community and feel strength from your fellow URMs. Boston, which you may or may not have a ton of exposure to, is hands down the most racist city in the US, so you better be ready for that as well at HLS. Beyond that, there is a fundamental difference in structure between H and S. Stanford is highly personal, Harvard is still trying to escape its legacy as a cold and brutal place where you were seriously separated from your professors until you earn your stripes. So, I often think about what I'd do if I had to choose between H and S (I never had both available at the same time). I honestly believe I would have chosen Stanford, but I also know that it would be impossible to make a wrong choice.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by jmj2254 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:36 pm

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Iam3hunna » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:21 pm

jmj2254 wrote:
fliptrip wrote:
Thorough
Very thorough indeed. Thanks for being an amazing contributor flip.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by ih8makingscreennames » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:39 pm

[quote="fliptrip"][/quote]
My goodness that made me question my whole existence.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by jnwa » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:29 pm

I got a good laugh from "who have last names for first names". Also does anyone have an idea about getting biglaw as a URM from t14. If theres still a "urm boost" then some of the HYS cushion that other people might find worth paying for might not apply to URM's. If URM's strike out at the same rate as non-urm's then the point is moot.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Iam3hunna » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:59 pm

jnwa wrote:I got a good laugh from "who have last names for first names". Also does anyone have an idea about getting biglaw as a URM from t14. If theres still a "urm boost" then some of the HYS cushion that other people might find worth paying for might not apply to URM's. If URM's strike out at the same rate as non-urm's then the point is moot.
From my limited understanding there is somewhat of a boost for URMs in the employment process. However, I'd imagine that HYS would still bring a stronger boost not found at the others. Even for URMs

It could still be pretty moot though if a URM doesn't think the Benefits outweigh the COA.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by j0214f » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:58 pm

ih8makingscreennames wrote:
legallybrown312 wrote:
j0214f wrote:Long time lurker finally checking in!

Really happy with my cycle in spite of a lower than desired LSAT. Any Georgetown admits here?
I'm in at Georgetown but probably not going unless massive FA comes through.
They just sent me the how much money would it take for you to come here email. I have to work on a response later.
Is that normal? My biggest concern right now is aid. I'm weighing really great offers from a few other schools and although Georgetown is my #1 the fact that I haven't heard about aid yet and need to put a deposit down at other schools soon is concerning.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:10 am

jnwa wrote:I got a good laugh from "who have last names for first names". Also does anyone have an idea about getting biglaw as a URM from t14. If theres still a "urm boost" then some of the HYS cushion that other people might find worth paying for might not apply to URM's. If URM's strike out at the same rate as non-urm's then the point is moot.
I'll put it like this...there are only ~270 black students in the entire t-14. Just from a pure supply standpoint, short of a grade catastrophe so awful that they doubt your basic competence, I think you have a great shot of getting biglaw and yes, a better shot than your non-urm counterparts.

Now, that's where the advantage stops because the situation flips right around when you look at retention and promotion rates at these glorious firms. Biglaw ain't kind to the negro.

I'll be very curious to see how this plays out for you, jnwa. As an Afro-Canadian, I think you might have an advantage in that you aren't carrying around all this psychosocial baggage American black folks can be weighed down by.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by jnwa » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:49 am

fliptrip wrote:
jnwa wrote:I got a good laugh from "who have last names for first names". Also does anyone have an idea about getting biglaw as a URM from t14. If theres still a "urm boost" then some of the HYS cushion that other people might find worth paying for might not apply to URM's. If URM's strike out at the same rate as non-urm's then the point is moot.
I'll put it like this...there are only ~270 black students in the entire t-14. Just from a pure supply standpoint, short of a grade catastrophe so awful that they doubt your basic competence, I think you have a great shot of getting biglaw and yes, a better shot than your non-urm counterparts.

Now, that's where the advantage stops because the situation flips right around when you look at retention and promotion rates at these glorious firms. Biglaw ain't kind to the negro.

I'll be very curious to see how this plays out for you, jnwa. As an Afro-Canadian, I think you might have an advantage in that you aren't carrying around all this psychosocial baggage American black folks can be weighed down by.
The pyschosocial stuff is actually interesting. Although Canadian schools arent super diverse imo. I attended an admitted students day with 2 black people (me being one). No black women. Black people dont make up as big a chunk of the population as in the US but its more than that, but our "affirmative action" policies only apply to aboriginal people.

Also i was actually born in Africa and lived there for a good chunk of my childhood so my conceptions of race are probably very different from people who were born here.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Skool » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:34 am

fliptrip wrote:Good!

First, we have to start with a discussion of who you are. If you're the type who keeps it in the middle of the road and is dedicated to making the best decision in all cases, then you take the AnBryce hands down. NYU can get you a good-paying job and who knows how long you'll survive in that good job, but it's more than likely you'll be on a great career path. The fact you'll do it while limiting your debt load just reinforces how great of a decision this is.

If you're still here, that means you are willing to take a less objectively wise course to fulfill some other need/desire/ambition of yours. There is no question that Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are the best. Going to Columbia, Chicago, NYU and the like is fine, but they aren't HYS. Every single person who wants to cry otherwise isn't in the club and that's how it is. I seriously wonder how many people hate on those who aspire to go to HYS actually turned HYS down to go to their school. I am sure there are folks who took the $$ and ran, but those folks I think know they left something behind. You will pay dearly to be in the club, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit to being in it. Also, you're a URM. URMs already have to deal with pre-conceived notions about our ability/qualifications/competence, so we actually gain greater benefit from having Harvard, Yale or Stanford on our resumes than non-URM students. I'm telling you, I'd much rather be the black dude trying to get in the door with Harvard attached to my name than trying use NYU. One other thing...with HYS being the most exclusive and elite fora for legal education, we almost have an obligation to go and represent and prove that we belong. If we all just take the money and head off to NYU (sorry NYU) or UVA, who's that going to leave in our places at these schools? Remember, the pool of highly qualified and talented URMs is shallow. That Harvard seat you vacate could be occupied by someone else who is a hot fucking mess.
I think the above is advice that applicants follow at their peril. If I'm understanding correctly, its opening seems to suggest that it's luring readers down a "less objectively wise course to fulfill some other need/desire/ambition of yours." Whenever someone starts trying to seduce you with something they acknowledge to be the less wise thing, it's time to be a bit skeptical about the value of the advice.

I think a lot of this advice gives undue weight to vague promises of the benefit of being in an elite club. I don't doubt that all things being equal there's value to going to HYS over NYU/UVA. But all things are not equal and the promise of people looking at you differently when you drop the H-bomb probably isn't going to outweigh the freedom that comes from a full-ride at a T-14 school.

Bottom line, everyone here is entering professional school to build a career in a profession. Entering into an elite and exclusive fora for legal education is not an end unto itself. Everyone here should be thinking about their long term professional goals, not vague promises of the benefit of being in an elite club or to "represent and prove that we belong."

Make good choices based on likely outcomes as determined by known data. For some that will mean HYS. For others that might mean NYU/UVA. Remember the flip side of the fliptrip's scenario. While there may be those who feel regret at chasing the money and not going HYS, I wouldn't want to be the big law grunt on the in house track who could have saved 160k in debt if he had subbed his NYU degree for the Harvard one and still had the same job and prospects.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Skool » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:01 am

fliptrip wrote:
jnwa wrote:I got a good laugh from "who have last names for first names". Also does anyone have an idea about getting biglaw as a URM from t14. If theres still a "urm boost" then some of the HYS cushion that other people might find worth paying for might not apply to URM's. If URM's strike out at the same rate as non-urm's then the point is moot.
I'll put it like this...there are only ~270 black students in the entire t-14. Just from a pure supply standpoint, short of a grade catastrophe so awful that they doubt your basic competence, I think you have a great shot of getting biglaw and yes, a better shot than your non-urm counterparts.
I haven't gone through the OCI process and while this makes some intuitive sense, I haven't seen any concrete evidence of it being true. I would bet that law schools protect this kind of data like a state secret, but it might be worth asking when you visit campuses.

I suspect that it varies a lot by firm. Given the culture and history of a place like DPW and Cravath, I doubt they will reach too far down in a class for anyone. Those kinds of places have very established cultures and institutional clients who have been happy with them for decades; they are not works in progress but are, in their minds, masterpieces. I think they're looking for people who can maintain what they've already built. Thus, I suspect that they have less incentive to build a diverse firm than other firms. Given the idiosyncratic assignment system and partnership track in Cravath I doubt they are going to take a risk by giving anyone without the classic cravath credentials a "boost."

Different firms probably have different recruitment philosophies so at the very least, the boost, to the extent it exists at all, is going to vary depending on the kind of firm you want to work for.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:01 am

Skool wrote:I think the above is advice that applicants follow at their peril. If I'm understanding correctly, its opening seems to suggest that it's luring readers down a "less objectively wise course to fulfill some other need/desire/ambition of yours." Whenever someone starts trying to seduce you with something they acknowledge to be the less wise thing, it's time to be a bit skeptical about the value of the advice.

I think a lot of this advice gives undue weight to vague promises of the benefit of being in an elite club. I don't doubt that all things being equal there's value to going to HYS over NYU/UVA. But all things are not equal and the promise of people looking at you differently when you drop the H-bomb probably isn't going to outweigh the freedom that comes from a full-ride at a T-14 school.

Bottom line, everyone here is entering professional school to build a career in a profession. Entering into an elite and exclusive fora for legal education is not an end unto itself. Everyone here should be thinking about their long term professional goals, not vague promises of the benefit of being in an elite club or to "represent and prove that we belong."

Make good choices based on likely outcomes as determined by known data. For some that will mean HYS. For others that might mean NYU/UVA. Remember the flip side of the fliptrip's scenario. While there may be those who feel regret at chasing the money and not going HYS, I wouldn't want to be the big law grunt on the in house track who could have saved 160k in debt if he had subbed his NYU degree for the Harvard one and still had the same job and prospects.
Alright, first, thank you for responding to my long diatribe, skool. We need to liven this place up and I think this will be a great way to do it for at least a little bit. I am not trying to go ad hominem, but for the sake of everyone reading us, some disclosure is in order. You had this choice, skool and you took NYU, if I remember things correctly. I'm deposited at Stanford, so clearly I see things differently. So this is like Gore Vidal and William F. Buckley going at it.

Now, be fair, skool. I gave the exact advice that you are advocating for in my first paragraph. If you are someone who is freaked by downside risk, then by all means take the free ride to NYU. Lots of people do and I doubt they regret it. I'm sure you'll be very happy. But, just because your course of action has merit does not mean that alternative perspectives and reasoning need to be dismissed out of hand. To illustrate further that I understand this calculus, friends, if you take door #2, flip's gilded and glittering door of prestige, skool is 100% right, you could end up having paid $160k (probably more) you didn't have to to end up in the same place as you would have otherwise.

Now, if you think you're going to maximize your potential in life by always playing it safe, I have to tell you you're wrong. If you don't take risks and you always stick on the safe path, that's an excellent way to end up being some functionary somewhere who is filling space and doing enough to not get fired. If that sounds like an a-ok idea to you, then what I'm saying probably sounds like the ramblings of a madman. But, if you want to do something big, if you want to just see how much you really can achieve, and the idea of getting by until you retire sounds like a waking death, then you'll also understand that going to HYS has a higher ceiling than going to NYU. Skool's right, I can't say with any specificity, but I can tell you that it means something valuable to have attended those schools. I think this clip from A Civil Action captures this thing that I'm talking about that is so hard to put into words: https://youtu.be/XEGy_asxL2U?t=14s . If you put yourself in the Travolta character's shoes and you basically get checked/put in your place because of your pedigree, how does it make you feel? If you don't give a shit because prestige is a myth and you're debt free and working and stable, then you should definitely go to NYU. If being in that position would make your blood boil, then you might wanna consider door #2.

So, this is less about what I am advising any of you all to do and more about just sharing who I am and how I am just in case there's anyone similarly wired out there who might take comfort in knowing they are not alone. Isaiah1992 is a 2L at SLS right now who turned down good money at Berkeley to go to Stanford. He says he doesn't regret it: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... start=2500 Frankly, if I were to end up in skool's worst case scenario, my reaction would not be to wander to the Triboro Bridge and hop in the river. I'd say, "well flip, that didn't go as planned, but fuck it...I took a shot." I and I emphasize I can live with that. I don't doubt at all that for a lot of folks that sort of scenario would cause a lot of drooling into the existential pillow of remorse and shame. I guess this is like most things, know thyself and proceed accordingly.

I suspect strongly that our friends who have AnBryce interviews in this thread will be receiving the scholarships in the next few weeks. I look forward to seeing how y'all reason/work through the big choice that awaits you. And, just so I make this 100% clear, skool is a boss and I know he's doing great things at NYU.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:14 am

And in honor of this early morning topic...NEW POLL!!! What would pry you away from the trinity URM TLSers?

I considered another poll for why is this URM thread has only 40 pages of posts when our predecessor from last year had 118 at this point last year. I hope it's not because I'm here...LOL

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Skool » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:25 am

fliptrip wrote: Now, if you think you're going to maximize your potential in life by always playing it safe, I have to tell you you're wrong. If you don't take risks and you always stick on the safe path, that's an excellent way to end up being some functionary somewhere who is filling space and doing enough to not get fired. If that sounds like an a-ok idea to you, then what I'm saying probably sounds like the ramblings of a madman.
It's funny that you should put it this way. The truth is, I feel completely free. Limiting risk on the front end has and will allow me to take risks that I might not have been able to take otherwise without my scholarship. I feel completely in control of my career. I can tell you that so far, I've been pretty aggressive in getting myself the right balance of work experiences for my summer. I'm not sure I would have been as daring if I didn't have the safety net I have at my law school. *shrug*
But, if you want to do something big, if you want to just see how much you really can achieve, and the idea of getting by until you retire sounds like a waking death, then you'll also understand that going to HYS has a higher ceiling than going to NYU.
The truth is in some pretty narrow ways, the ceiling at HYS really is higher than it is at CCN (I hate to make this all about NYU since it makes convo seem really petty). For instance, you will have more opportunities to clerk or go into academia or become an Article III judge than I will. You'll have a better shot at a Bristow or a Skadden than I will. I suppose you have better chances at POTUS too. The fanciest of the fancy shit, you will undoubtedly have a better shot at it than me. But the odds of you getting most of those things are pretty slim for you too (except clerkships), so you better have a plan B even if you're at HYS. And notice, those opportunities are not completely off the table for me either. So the question is how much are those increased chances at fancy shit worth? Everyone has to decide for themselves. When you consider that even an HYS student has a steep climb up to those mountains, I don't think the gulf between professional possibilities at HYS and everyone else is as big as you imply.

Those are things worth considering. But telling people you go to Harvard or making sure that you have the benefit of knowing how to handle yourself at the Harvard club or whether a hot mess is going to take your spot at Harvard and thereby embarrass other AAs in the profession... I just don't think we should take those kinds of things into consideration. My main objection to your posts is the weight you seem to give these things in the decision making process. There are plenty of good reasons to choose HYS over CCN. But we don't need to add weird stuff into the mix.

Look, I get it. For Americans, HYS has this kind of psychological value. It's like you've made it and you'll always have that social capital. I think as URMs, especially first gen students, it's something we latch onto for lots of personal and valid reasons. But I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we're making decisions based on those feelings without conscientiously making sure HYS is the best choice for our careers especially when you have $$$ on the table from elsewhere. I'm not trying to tell anyone where they should go to school or defend my law school or anything. I just think take a little bit of issue with the assumptions about HYS compared to other schools and the psycho-socio values you seem to think should be in the decision making process. Just don't think those should have a seat at the table.

All the same, I wish you luck at Stanford.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Iam3hunna » Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:50 am

Skool wrote:
fliptrip wrote: Now, if you think you're going to maximize your potential in life by always playing it safe, I have to tell you you're wrong. If you don't take risks and you always stick on the safe path, that's an excellent way to end up being some functionary somewhere who is filling space and doing enough to not get fired. If that sounds like an a-ok idea to you, then what I'm saying probably sounds like the ramblings of a madman.
It's funny that you should put it this way. The truth is, I feel completely free. Limiting risk on the front end has and will allow me to take risks that I might not have been able to take otherwise without my scholarship. I feel completely in control of my career. I can tell you that so far, I've been pretty aggressive in getting myself the right balance of work experiences for my summer. I'm not sure I would have been as daring if I didn't have the safety net I have at my law school. *shrug*
But, if you want to do something big, if you want to just see how much you really can achieve, and the idea of getting by until you retire sounds like a waking death, then you'll also understand that going to HYS has a higher ceiling than going to NYU.
The truth is in some pretty narrow ways, the ceiling at HYS really is higher than it is at CCN (I hate to make this all about NYU since it makes convo seem really petty). For instance, you will have more opportunities to clerk or go into academia or become an Article III judge than I will. You'll have a better shot at a Bristow or a Skadden than I will. I suppose you have better chances at POTUS too. The fanciest of the fancy shit, you will undoubtedly have a better shot at it than me. But the odds of you getting most of those things are pretty slim for you too (except clerkships), so you better have a plan B even if you're at HYS. And notice, those opportunities are not completely off the table for me either. So the question is how much are those increased chances at fancy shit worth? Everyone has to decide for themselves. When you consider that even an HYS student has a steep climb up to those mountains, I don't think the gulf between professional possibilities at HYS and everyone else is as big as you imply.

Those are things worth considering. But telling people you go to Harvard or making sure that you have the benefit of knowing how to handle yourself at the Harvard club or whether a hot mess is going to take your spot at Harvard and thereby embarrass other AAs in the profession... I just don't think we should take those kinds of things into consideration. My main objection to your posts is the weight you seem to give these things in the decision making process. There are plenty of good reasons to choose HYS over CCN. But we don't need to add weird stuff into the mix.

Look, I get it. For Americans, HYS has this kind of psychological value. It's like you've made it and you'll always have that social capital. I think as URMs, especially first gen students, it's something we latch onto for lots of personal and valid reasons. But I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we're making decisions based on those feelings without conscientiously making sure HYS is the best choice for our careers especially when you have $$$ on the table from elsewhere. I'm not trying to tell anyone where they should go to school or defend my law school or anything. I just think take a little bit of issue with the assumptions about HYS compared to other schools and the psycho-socio values you seem to think should be in the decision making process. Just don't think those should have a seat at the table.

All the same, I wish you luck at Stanford.
Your caution against just plunging into HYS and ignoring the cost is definitely understood. The amount Harvard decides to give me will play a big role in my decision if I end up having the fortune of choosing between Harvard and AB.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by fliptrip » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:19 pm

Skool wrote: It's funny that you should put it this way. The truth is, I feel completely free. Limiting risk on the front end has and will allow me to take risks that I might not have been able to take otherwise without my scholarship.
This is a very interesting point, and certainly makes a lot of sense. But, not taking a risk earlier can limit the choices you have downstream. Having greater freedom to choose amongst your options does not mean the same thing as having the same options to choose from.

But, if you want to do something big, if you want to just see how much you really can achieve, and the idea of getting by until you retire sounds like a waking death, then you'll also understand that going to HYS has a higher ceiling than going to NYU.The truth is in some pretty narrow ways, the ceiling at HYS really is higher than it is at CCN (I hate to make this all about NYU since it makes convo seem really petty). For instance, you will have more opportunities to clerk or go into academia or become an Article III judge than I will. You'll have a better shot at a Bristow or a Skadden than I will. I suppose you have better chances at POTUS too. The fanciest of the fancy shit, you will undoubtedly have a better shot at it than me. But the odds of you getting most of those things are pretty slim for you too (except clerkships), so you better have a plan B even if you're at HYS. And notice, those opportunities are not completely off the table for me either. So the question is how much are those increased chances at fancy shit worth? Everyone has to decide for themselves. When you consider that even an HYS student has a steep climb up to those mountains, I don't think the gulf between professional possibilities at HYS and everyone else is as big as you imply.
I have tried twice to demonstrate that I fully understand the objective dimensions of this choice. I regret not fully breaking it down the way you have, because perhaps if I had, I would have made my intent more clear.
Skool wrote:Those are things worth considering. But telling people you go to Harvard or making sure that you have the benefit of knowing how to handle yourself at the Harvard club or whether a hot mess is going to take your spot at Harvard and thereby embarrass other AAs in the profession... I just don't think we should take those kinds of things into consideration. My main objection to your posts is the weight you seem to give these things in the decision making process. There are plenty of good reasons to choose HYS over CCN. But we don't need to add weird stuff into the mix.

Look, I get it. For Americans, HYS has this kind of psychological value. It's like you've made it and you'll always have that social capital. I think as URMs, especially first gen students, it's something we latch onto for lots of personal and valid reasons. But I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we're making decisions based on those feelings without conscientiously making sure HYS is the best choice for our careers especially when you have $$$ on the table from elsewhere. I'm not trying to tell anyone where they should go to school or defend my law school or anything. I just think take a little bit of issue with the assumptions about HYS compared to other schools and the psycho-socio values you seem to think should be in the decision making process. Just don't think those should have a seat at the table.
I'm not trying to enrage you, but I'm doubling down here. The point of the clip is not the place where Schlictmann doesn't understand that you don't negotiate at the Harvard Club, the point comes right before that when he says "I thought you went to Harvard (knowing damn well he didn't). Ah, Cornell *pause*, Cornell's a damn fine school." That is Eustis putting him in his place...he's basically like look fucker we might deal this one time, but you're not my equal and you aren't sitting at my table. Again, you might not care about something like that, but it's not right to tell people that they shouldn't care. I'll also say that any URM who thinks their journey in the professional world is going to be all about objective calculations and nothing about squishy things like social capital is in for a very rude awakening.

I think that it's a very fine line to dance to be sure that you distinguish between what is important to you and what "should" be important to others. If you don't care about the way fellow URMs are perceived in certain circles, that's your business, but my caring about it is not "weird", is not wrong, and also is not something that is unique to me. My intent in my post, which I did not execute as well as I could, was to give an objective analysis up front and then sort of allow people for whom that is going to be conclusive to hop off the train at that point. I totally get that there are plenty of reasonable people out there who think everything I said after the first part of my original post is just bullshit. And that's fine...that's cool, man.

Oftentimes on TLS, there's really no meaningful discussion about questions similar to this because to take the opposite side of the question is objective lunacy. And, I certainly agree that sticker debt anywhere, even YSH, is crazy when you have a cheaper alternative that is a close enough facsimile. But if you're having to chip in an extra something to go to YSH over free t-14, I don't think you're a nut if you do. Who knows what that number is, but there is a number.

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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Post by Skool » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:24 pm

I'm not trying to enrage you, but I'm doubling down here. The point of the clip is not the place where Schlictmann doesn't understand that you don't negotiate at the Harvard Club, the point comes right before that when he says "I thought you went to Harvard (knowing damn well he didn't). Ah, Cornell *pause*, Cornell's a damn fine school." That is Eustis putting him in his place...he's basically like look fucker we might deal this one time, but you're not my equal and you aren't sitting at my table. Again, you might not care about something like that, but it's not right to tell people that they shouldn't care. I'll also say that any URM who thinks their journey in the professional world is going to be all about objective calculations and nothing about squishy things like social capital is in for a very rude awakening.
I don't doubt that this kind of interaction can happen by some especially uncouth colleague. But I'm not sure that those sorts of interactions translate into less professional opportunity. For SCOTUS clerkships, judges can be picky about Harvard vs. UVA. In other legal positions, there's less need to ration and sort in that way. I know you get that there are cost benefit tradeoffs involved in deciding $$$ vs. HYS but I'm not sure you understand that once you're out of the super scarce elite job market, there's less of a chance for a person to lose out on an opportunity because they didn't go to Harvard. Even if people subjectively value Harvard, there's less opportunities to translate the social/educational capital of Harvard into professional advantages. And as Tony Soprano once said, "we do this to put food on the table." If Harvard isn't putting more food on the table.... what's the point?
fliptrip wrote:I think that it's a very fine line to dance to be sure that you distinguish between what is important to you and what "should" be important to others. If you don't care about the way fellow URMs are perceived in certain circles, that's your business, but my caring about it is not "weird", is not wrong, and also is not something that is unique to me. My intent in my post, which I did not execute as well as I could, was to give an objective analysis up front and then sort of allow people for whom that is going to be conclusive to hop off the train at that point. I totally get that there are plenty of reasonable people out there who think everything I said after the first part of my original post is just bullshit. And that's fine...that's cool, man.
I mean, you seemed to be implying something like, "if I don't go to HYS, maybe a hot mess will and I need to look out for URMs over all." I just think we should leave the admissions decision to Dean Deal and trust them to sort out who is going to succeed at Stanford and who isn't. I think trying to influence such a big goal through individual decision making is not likely to be effectual and, surprise, surprise, it aligns with your own self interest in going to HYS. It's the TLS URM version of the Talented Tenth. So yeah, I think it's a weird way for an applicant to analyze an enrollment decision, but I'll leave it to others to consider for themselves whether it makes sense. But maybe I misunderstood your point.

But I do take your point about distinguishing between what is important to me and what should be important to others. But If I'm too skeptical, I think you're too credulous about the advantages of HYS outside of the narrow range of elite jobs that we both agree on. It's just not clear to me the mechanism by which HYS social capital gets translated to more professional opportunities outside of this range. Nor is it clear to me how we can measure these advantages so as to incorporate them into a cost benefit analysis.

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