URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread Forum

[Dr.Zer0]

Congrats to my fellow law fellow Zero on Penn!!!!!! Putting in work!

PS: sorry for the double fellow, couldn't think of anything else lol.

Thanks Isaiah!

P.S. I do the double fellow too sometimes, I find it amusing.

[mandyjay11]

Congrats to my fellow law fellow Zero on Penn!!!!!! Putting in work!

PS: sorry for the double fellow, couldn't think of anything else lol.

Thanks Isaiah!

P.S. I do the double fellow too sometimes, I find it amusing.

CONGRATS!

[toshiroh]

Congrats to my fellow law fellow Zero on Penn!!!!!! Putting in work!

PS: sorry for the double fellow, couldn't think of anything else lol.

Thanks Isaiah!

P.S. I do the double fellow too sometimes, I find it amusing.

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!! that's huge!!

[Black_Swan]

Congrats!

[Dr.Zer0]

Thanks everyone!

[EvMont]

Congrats, Zer0! That's huge!

[applelover]

Congrats, Zer0! That's huge!

[ThePiedPiper]

Congrats Zero on Penn!!! That's a big deal!!!

[El Principe]

Congrats on Penn!

I just got my scholly info from UTexas. They gave me ~half tuition, or 15K/year! More than I expected! Nonwithstanding a miracle (getting accepted @ Duke and them matching COAs), I'm pretty much decided! Plus I'm hearing something about them being good with need based financial aid, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

EDIT: Oh and no stips on the scholarship either!

[Dr.Zer0]

Thanks everyone! Getting into UPenn is a good way to start the weekend

Congrats on the scholarship Principe. Hopefully the need based aid covers the rest!

[Futuregohan14]

Congrats to my fellow law fellow Zero on Penn!!!!!! Putting in work!

PS: sorry for the double fellow, couldn't think of anything else lol.

Thanks Isaiah!

P.S. I do the double fellow too sometimes, I find it amusing.

wow
many brotherly
much love
so fellow
very scholar
many accomplish
such excite
Dr. Quaker Zer0
wow

[teampeeta]

Thanks everyone!

Congrats on Penn!!!

[Trippel]

Congrats on Penn, Zero!

And

Congrats on the scholarship, Principe!

[okaygo]

I'm scouring through past TLS threads to try and help me make my decision on whether to take the bigger scholly, or a smaller scholly at a higher ranked school and all I see is 'oh its going to take FOREVER to pay that off (I.e. approx. 10 years) in big law where you barely have any sleep and you're at the whim of the partners and higher ranking associates 24/7 and burnout etc etc etc, and on top of that you ~only make approximately 75k to bring home after bringing back loans.

I've been speaking to a lot of former big law attorneys and while they've all told me that big law isn't sunshine and roses, it's not the soul crushing experience that everyone makes it out to be. They told me that the worst part of big law is the hours and the lack of time spent with your family for some years.

But when I think about It, I can't help but compare it to being a doctor and going through residency. The hours (approx 80 hour work weeks) and pay suck (actually worse than what first year associates bring home POST loan removal). In fact it's not for five or six years where doctors begin seeing their ROI, in terms of what doctors are really expected to make. Why should I expect law to be any different? My only concern is getting big law, but I'm really not concerned about putting in the hard work, 1L year especially, to get there.

Just my ramblings.

[AAJD2B]

I'm scouring through past TLS threads to try and help me make my decision on whether to take the bigger scholly, or a smaller scholly at a higher ranked school and all I see is 'oh its going to take FOREVER to pay that off (I.e. approx. 10 years) in big law where you barely have any sleep and you're at the whim of the partners and higher ranking associates 24/7 and burnout etc etc etc, and on top of that you ~only make approximately 75k to bring home after bringing back loans.

I've been speaking to a lot of former big law attorneys and while they've all told me that big law isn't sunshine and roses, it's not the soul crushing experience that everyone makes it out to be. They told me that the worst part of big law is the hours and the lack of time spent with your family for some years.

But when I think about It, I can't help but compare it to being a doctor and going through residency. The hours (approx 80 hour work weeks) and pay suck (actually worse than what first year associates bring home POST loan removal). In fact it's not for five or six years where doctors begin seeing their ROI, in terms of what doctors are really expected to make. Why should I expect law to be any different? My only concern is getting big law, but I'm really not concerned about putting in the hard work, 1L year especially, to get there.

Just my ramblings.

Only differences are:

1. Doctors are needed. Less supply than what's in demand. Lawyers are dispensable. With that comes the increased risk of being laid off or an offer rescinded with accruing loans.

2. Some doctors have the option to create their own hours and still make great money. They don't necessarily need an employer to start their career.

3. The payoff is huge. They may take out 300k or more for a medical degree but get paid upward of 200k or more after residency. A 160k start may seem good on paper and a firm may bill a client $400/hour for an associate but in reality you're worth about $100 or less per hour after you divide it by the billable hours required of you (usually a 2000 hour requirement separate from non-billable hours and time working on vacations, personal time off, etc.)

I just don't think a medical degree compares to a law degree when looking at potential earnings and demand.

That said, you have to be the judge and experience it yourself to see why people conclude as they do. BIGLAW is seldom an end goal, but a stepping stone. It will take its toll. Just make sure you take care of yourself and your health whilst in it.

And I don't care what anyone says: debt is debt. Why pay 3k/month on loans when you can pay 1k/month and end up at the same job? Can't be me.

[okaygo]

True, true. I agree with most points you're making. I have some points of contestation but I hate typing a lot on my phone.

[El Principe]

I'm scouring through past TLS threads to try and help me make my decision on whether to take the bigger scholly, or a smaller scholly at a higher ranked school and all I see is 'oh its going to take FOREVER to pay that off (I.e. approx. 10 years) in big law where you barely have any sleep and you're at the whim of the partners and higher ranking associates 24/7 and burnout etc etc etc, and on top of that you ~only make approximately 75k to bring home after bringing back loans.

I've been speaking to a lot of former big law attorneys and while they've all told me that big law isn't sunshine and roses, it's not the soul crushing experience that everyone makes it out to be. They told me that the worst part of big law is the hours and the lack of time spent with your family for some years.

But when I think about It, I can't help but compare it to being a doctor and going through residency. The hours (approx 80 hour work weeks) and pay suck (actually worse than what first year associates bring home POST loan removal). In fact it's not for five or six years where doctors begin seeing their ROI, in terms of what doctors are really expected to make. Why should I expect law to be any different? My only concern is getting big law, but I'm really not concerned about putting in the hard work, 1L year especially, to get there.

Just my ramblings.

Only differences are:

1. Doctors are needed. Less supply than what's in demand. Lawyers are dispensable. With that comes the increased risk of being laid off or an offer rescinded with accruing loans.

2. Some doctors have the option to create their own hours and still make great money. They don't necessarily need an employer to start their career.

3. The payoff is huge. They may take out 300k or more for a medical degree but get paid upward of 200k or more after residency. A 160k start may seem good on paper and a firm may bill a client $400/hour for an associate but in reality you're worth about $100 or less per hour after you divide it by the billable hours required of you (usually a 2000 hour requirement separate from non-billable hours and time working on vacations, personal time off, etc.)

I just don't think a medical degree compares to a law degree when looking at potential earnings and demand.

That said, you have to be the judge and experience it yourself to see why people conclude as they do. BIGLAW is seldom an end goal, but a stepping stone. It will take its toll. Just make sure you take care of yourself and your health whilst in it.

And I don't care what anyone says: debt is debt. Why pay 3k/month on loans when you can pay 1k/month and end up at the same job? Can't be me.

I like that last part bolded. But of course, my perspective is different than hers. I might get shut out of T14, so I'm taking the best offer I can get (which ironically is a better offer than my lower ranked schools tbh). But yeah, I want to come out with the least amount of debt possible.

And I think I'll disagree about the MD being a better investment. Perhaps the one true benefit is job security like you said, but the way insurance reimbursement keeps decreasing and malpractice insurance keeps increasing, doctors are making less and less money.

Not all doctors make over 200K, especially if they don't have their own practice. Specialists make much more money on average, but you have to do anywhere from 4-11 years of residencies and fellowships, all while your loans are piling up. And the more money you make, generally speaking, the more you have to pay in malpractice insurance, because there's just more room for error.

And it's not as easy as just hanging a shingle and starting your own practice. Sure, you could make twice the money and set your own hours, but you still have to be on call and you're still susceptible to failure just like any other business.

Now, don't get me wrong. Medicine is still has a very good ROI, but I don't think the comparison to law can be made in a vacuum. Too many factors to consider.

People here on TLS seem to have a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality when it comes to other professions that have high earning potentials, but all that glitters isn't gold.

[AAJD2B]

True, true. I agree with most points you're making. I have some points of contestation but I hate typing a lot on my phone.

I would love to hear it once you're near a PC or laptop

But honestly I think you'll be fine wherever you land. Also check your PM.

[AAJD2B]

I'm scouring through past TLS threads to try and help me make my decision on whether to take the bigger scholly, or a smaller scholly at a higher ranked school and all I see is 'oh its going to take FOREVER to pay that off (I.e. approx. 10 years) in big law where you barely have any sleep and you're at the whim of the partners and higher ranking associates 24/7 and burnout etc etc etc, and on top of that you ~only make approximately 75k to bring home after bringing back loans.

I've been speaking to a lot of former big law attorneys and while they've all told me that big law isn't sunshine and roses, it's not the soul crushing experience that everyone makes it out to be. They told me that the worst part of big law is the hours and the lack of time spent with your family for some years.

But when I think about It, I can't help but compare it to being a doctor and going through residency. The hours (approx 80 hour work weeks) and pay suck (actually worse than what first year associates bring home POST loan removal). In fact it's not for five or six years where doctors begin seeing their ROI, in terms of what doctors are really expected to make. Why should I expect law to be any different? My only concern is getting big law, but I'm really not concerned about putting in the hard work, 1L year especially, to get there.

Just my ramblings.

Only differences are:

1. Doctors are needed. Less supply than what's in demand. Lawyers are dispensable. With that comes the increased risk of being laid off or an offer rescinded with accruing loans.

2. Some doctors have the option to create their own hours and still make great money. They don't necessarily need an employer to start their career.

3. The payoff is huge. They may take out 300k or more for a medical degree but get paid upward of 200k or more after residency. A 160k start may seem good on paper and a firm may bill a client $400/hour for an associate but in reality you're worth about $100 or less per hour after you divide it by the billable hours required of you (usually a 2000 hour requirement separate from non-billable hours and time working on vacations, personal time off, etc.)

I just don't think a medical degree compares to a law degree when looking at potential earnings and demand.

That said, you have to be the judge and experience it yourself to see why people conclude as they do. BIGLAW is seldom an end goal, but a stepping stone. It will take its toll. Just make sure you take care of yourself and your health whilst in it.

And I don't care what anyone says: debt is debt. Why pay 3k/month on loans when you can pay 1k/month and end up at the same job? Can't be me.

I like that last part bolded. But of course, my perspective is different than hers. I might get shut out of T14, so I'm taking the best offer I can get (which ironically is a better offer than my lower ranked schools tbh). But yeah, I want to come out with the least amount of debt possible.

And I think I'll disagree about the MD being a better investment. Perhaps the one true benefit is job security like you said, but the way insurance reimbursement keeps decreasing and malpractice insurance keeps increasing, doctors are making less and less money.

Not all doctors make over 200K, especially if they don't have their own practice. Specialists make much more money on average, but you have to do anywhere from 4-11 years of residencies and fellowships, all while your loans are piling up. And the more money you make, generally speaking, the more you have to pay in malpractice insurance, because there's just more room for error.

And it's not as easy as just hanging a shingle and starting your own practice. Sure, you could make twice the money and set your own hours, but you still have to be on call and you're still susceptible to failure just like any other business.

Now, don't get me wrong. Medicine is still has a very good ROI, but I don't think the comparison to law can be made in a vacuum. Too many factors to consider.

People here on TLS seem to have a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality when it comes to other professions that have high earning potentials, but all that glitters isn't gold.

Very interesting points. How expensive can malpractice insurance get? I didn't consider this.

[El Principe]

AA: I had a website a while ago that had it all nicely laid out, but apparently that's MIA so I had to do some digging. Apparently, they aren't as bad as I previously thought, but still steep, especially for people starting out. However, they probably wouldn't be much more than a nuisance if you have a successful practice and are well established in your career.

http://medicaleconomics.modernmedicine. ... lpractice-

Family and general practitioners reported median premiums of $12,100, down slightly from $12,600 in 2009. Internists' median was $13,100 (down from $14,500 in 2009) and pediatricians' rates were $11,800 (up slightly from $11,500 in 2009). Ob/gyns, always at the high end of the primary care spectrum, paid a median of $46,400, down from $51,200 in 2009.

Median premiums reported by specialists:
■ Plastic surgeons: $30,000
■ Cardiologists: $24,000
■ Urologists: $22,500
■ Emergency/acute care practitioners: $20,000
■ Neurologists/neurosurgeons: $20,000
■ Gastroenterologists: $17,900
■ Hospitalists: $13,700
■ Ophthalmologists: $12,800
■ Dermatologists: $10,300
■ Psychiatrists: $7,700
- See more at: http://medicaleconomics.modernmedicine. ... os37K.dpuf

[sashafierce]

Forest Whitaker, Sanaa Lathan and Anthony Mackie--> Black thriller/horror movie! A must see! Check out the trailer:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjm1PVCZGoE

[Ben Reilly]

Just got my JS2 today. Caught me completely off guard since I never expected to get an acceptance call during the weekend.

[EvMont]

Just got my JS2 today. Caught me completely off guard since I never expected to get an acceptance call during the weekend.

OMG! OMG! Congrats!!

[alllaweverything]

JS2!!!! i can't even believe it. i cried.

[alllaweverything]

Just got my JS2 today. Caught me completely off guard since I never expected to get an acceptance call during the weekend.

+1. was not expecting this AT ALL on a sunday, especially since it's ASW.

congrats to you!