HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU Forum

[TheProsecutor]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the point of pushing the HBCU's as your main deciding factor for law school? I'm black, and I don't understand why any educated black person would only consider HBCUs if job opportunities are to be hand at higher ranked law schools.

+ 1,000,000. And trust me, it's not your ignorance that needs pardoning in this thread.

I think HBCUs offer a pretty outstanding experience for many students. For example, Yale Law School often recruits from Howard University, Morehouse, etc. Harvard Business School, HLS and other great institutions are often populated with many alumni of HBCUs.

Kirkland & Ellis, Sullivan & Cromwell, Skadden and other top firms recruit at Howard Law. For a kid faced with a 160+, a full scholarship at Howard and having to pay market at UVA, she might choose wisely to go to a school with no debt and end up in the same position OR better than if she would have gone to the top 14 school.

Beyond the fact that high performers at Howard often get great opportunities (read: opportunities equal to or exceeding the ones that kids get at t-14s), there is the history of attending an HBCU and the often deep family connections.

NCCU is a good school and produced a former governor of North Carolina. NCCU also produces its fair share of solo practicioners, assistant DAs, in house attorneys, and public defenders. The school may not get your Wachtell, Lipton, but in North Carolina it can get you a great public interest job, a nice lifestyle In Durham, Greensboro, Raleigh, Burlington, etc and enough of an alumni base to start hustling when the time is right to strike out on your own. Also, if you are black, from NC and interested in politics, NCCU is pretty sweet.

Not every single law grad is risk adverse and HBCU students in particular are the epitome of cats who take chances and create their own luck.

As far as FAMU, though, I'd stay away from their law school.

[TheProsecutor]

I would argue that all HBCU's offer similar prospects outside of FAMU, and so the conversation should be HBCU's vs. better ranked schools.
Minorities are generally not in the top 15% of a law school class. Sh*t happens. This is important because all HBCUs except for Howard are at least 30% non-minority. When you add the two factors together you see that "majorities" generally make up the top 15% of the other HBCUs. Employers know this and these top placing "majorities" are not treated any differently than had they attended any other T3/T4 school.

Howard is around 90% minority, and thus a large portion of the top 15% of the class is composed of minority students. Employers know this and are attracted to it because they can hire minority law students that graduated Summa Cum Laude from law school (and other latin honors). Therefore, Howard law school appears to have far better job prospects than it actually does. If NCCU, FAMU, or Texas Southern were 90% minority, their employment outcomes would be on par with Howard (except for FAMU, for other reasons).

Please don't think employers will not go deeper into the class for minority students from well regarded schools. In fact, in both my personal experience and from what I have heard, employers love minority students that go to high profile schools. Of course this is true for firms, but this is true for government and other job areas as well.

Thus, your job prospects won't differ dramatically among the various HBCUs (except for FAMU). However, if you get into a high profile law school, I would suggest you go there instead - if you can do so affordably.

This is literally the dumbest thing ever written. You are arguing that employers go to Howard and not other HBCU law schools because they know that 90% of the kids are black? No they go to Howard because it is a respected institution that trains african american lawyers. None of the other HBCUs with a law school have the reputation Howard has.

Your point is easily refuted because if employers simply wanted black attorneys, then they could get their fill by simply selecting those blacks from HYSCCNMVPG. Why go to howard at all, especially since the top 20% of HU is only about 20 students?

[LSAT>LDAC]

Kirkland & Ellis, Sullivan & Cromwell, Skadden and other top firms recruit at Howard Law. For a kid faced with a 160+, a full scholarship at Howard and having to pay market at UVA, she might choose wisely to go to a school with no debt and end up in the same position OR better than if she would have gone to the top 14 school.

Beyond the fact that high performers at Howard often get great opportunities (read: opportunities equal to or exceeding the ones that kids get at t-14).

THIS is false.

[TheProsecutor]

Kirkland & Ellis, Sullivan & Cromwell, Skadden and other top firms recruit at Howard Law. For a kid faced with a 160+, a full scholarship at Howard and having to pay market at UVA, she might choose wisely to go to a school with no debt and end up in the same position OR better than if she would have gone to the top 14 school.

Beyond the fact that high performers at Howard often get great opportunities (read: opportunities equal to or exceeding the ones that kids get at t-14).

THIS is false.

No it isn't. None of it is false.

There are Black kids at top 14 law schools who do not get biglaw and there are kids at Howard that get biglaw every year and graduate with 0 debt. Unless you contest that fact, then nothing I said is false. So what opportunities at t-14 are there that the top performers at Howard cannot get? (Edit: the only one I can think of is Supreme Court Clerkships and I guarantee 99% of the black t14 kids aren't gonna get one either).

[Stanford4Me]

No it isn't. None of it is false.

There are Black kids at top 14 law schools who do not get biglaw and there are kids at Howard that get biglaw every year and graduate with 0 debt. Unless you contest that fact, then nothing I said is false. So what opportunities at t-14 are there that the top performers at Howard cannot get? (Edit: the only one I can think of is Supreme Court Clerkships and I guarantee 99% of the black t14 kids aren't gonna get one either).

Technically, none of it's false, just like technically employment information distributed by law schools isn't false. I'd say you're underestimating how difficult it is to get top 10% in law school and overlooking the fact that in the T-14, employers are willing to go deeper in the class to hire students--both minority and non-minority.

[LSAT>LDAC]

No it isn't. None of it is false.

There are Black kids at top 14 law schools who do not get biglaw and there are kids at Howard that get biglaw every year and graduate with 0 debt. Unless you contest that fact, then nothing I said is false. So what opportunities at t-14 are there that the top performers at Howard cannot get? (Edit: the only one I can think of is Supreme Court Clerkships and I guarantee 99% of the black t14 kids aren't gonna get one either).

Technically, none of it's false, just like technically employment information distributed by law schools isn't false. I'd say you're underestimating how difficult it is to get top 10% in law school and overlooking the fact that in the T-14, employers are willing to go deeper in the class to hire students--both minority and non-minority.

+10

[TheProsecutor]

No it isn't. None of it is false.

There are Black kids at top 14 law schools who do not get biglaw and there are kids at Howard that get biglaw every year and graduate with 0 debt. Unless you contest that fact, then nothing I said is false. So what opportunities at t-14 are there that the top performers at Howard cannot get? (Edit: the only one I can think of is Supreme Court Clerkships and I guarantee 99% of the black t14 kids aren't gonna get one either).

Technically, none of it's false, just like technically employment information distributed by law schools isn't false. I'd say you're underestimating how difficult it is to get top 10% in law school and overlooking the fact that in the T-14, employers are willing to go deeper in the class to hire students--both minority and non-minority.

No, I am not underestimating the difficulty of getting into the top 10%. I NEVER even made a statement saying that it was easy to get into the top 10%. The ONLY thing I said is that some people choose Howard over Top 14s (TRUE STATEMENT) because 1) they can graduate with zero debt (TRUE STATEMENT) and 2) because if you graduate at the top, you get the same opportunities available to t14 kids (TRUE STATEMENT). When pressed, I merely pointed out that every year there are kids at Howard Law that pursue this path successfully (TRUE STATEMENT).

How is ANY of this untrue or misleading? The person asked why someone chooses a HBCU over a Top 14, and I responded with what is the typical reason people do that.

What's the problem with the statement?

Sheesh, for a board full of aspiring lawyers, you sure do create a lot of strawmen.

[LSAT>LDAC]

The ONLY thing I said is that some people choose Howard over Top 14s (TRUE STATEMENT) because 1) they can graduate with zero debt (TRUE STATEMENT) and 2) because if you graduate at the top, you get the same opportunities available to t14 kids (TRUE STATEMENT). When pressed, I merely pointed out that every year there are kids at Howard Law that pursue this path successfully (TRUE STATEMENT).

How is ANY of this untrue or misleading? The person asked why someone chooses a HBCU over a Top 14, and I responded with what is the typical reason people do that.

What's the problem with the statement?

Sheesh, for a board full of aspiring lawyers, you sure do create a lot of strawmen.

Number 2 is false, and you are either misinformed on major/most firms reliance on law school's prestige with respect to their investments, naive to the reality of the disproportionate structural opportunities that underlines the rankings of law schools or working off of a false definition of "same."

If you believe that the top 10% of graduates of Howard Law have the same opportunities as the top 10% of graduates at Stanford or UPenn you're high. You cant believe same opportunity means one of the very few cases where an individual is an exception to the norm and has similar opportunities as T-14 graduate colleagues not necessarily because he excelled at Howard Law, but because he supplemented that with exceptional networking, affirmative action legislation or other variables.

*pulls out strawman*
This guy wouldn't even choose to attend a more expensive university, accumulate way more debt and compete with more competitive classes instead of going to Howard and having the "same" or better opportunity.

[TheProsecutor]

The ONLY thing I said is that some people choose Howard over Top 14s (TRUE STATEMENT) because 1) they can graduate with zero debt (TRUE STATEMENT) and 2) because if you graduate at the top, you get the same opportunities available to t14 kids (TRUE STATEMENT). When pressed, I merely pointed out that every year there are kids at Howard Law that pursue this path successfully (TRUE STATEMENT).

How is ANY of this untrue or misleading? The person asked why someone chooses a HBCU over a Top 14, and I responded with what is the typical reason people do that.

What's the problem with the statement?

Sheesh, for a board full of aspiring lawyers, you sure do create a lot of strawmen.

Number 2 is false, and you are either misinformed on major/most firms reliance on law school's prestige with respect to their investments, naive to the reality of the disproportionate structural opportunities that underlines the rankings of law schools or working off of a false definition of "same."

If you believe that the top 10% of graduates of Howard Law have the same opportunities as the top 10% of graduates at Stanford or UPenn you're high. You cant believe same opportunity means one of the very few cases where an individual is an exception to the norm and has similar opportunities as T-14 graduate colleagues not necessarily because he excelled at Howard Law, but because he supplemented that with exceptional networking, affirmative action legislation or other variables.

*pulls out strawman*
This guy wouldn't even choose to attend a more expensive university, accumulate way more debt and compete with more competitive classes instead of going to Howard and having the "same" or better opportunity.

First of all, no one ever argued that the top 10% at Howard get the same opportunities as the Top 10% at Penn. Just that the top kids at Howard get the same or better opportunities that black kids at top 14 get (And of course your argument that there aren't many grads at Howard getting these opportunities is valid. Of course it is not the norm at howard. That's why we are talking about the TOP of the class at Howard. By definition, top of the class is the exception. No one is arguing that the average kid at Howard is getting the same opportunities as t14 grads; only the top of the class is). You have yet to identify one single opportunity that a kid in the top of his class at Howard CANNOT get, that a kid at a t-14 can get. Just a review of the websites of top firms reveal a Howard University presence.

Is it true that employers dig deeper in their classes at top 14s? Yes. But if you graduate at the top of your class at Howard, I know for a fact you can get biglaw at an elite firm. I know for a fact that you'll be competitive for a federal clerkship. I know for a fact that you will be attractive to the government including DOJ honors.

So how exactly is number 2 false, and I would appreciate something more than "you're high." If you don't have anything more, just concede the point and move on. If you do have something compelling to say, I'll gladly say I'm mistaken.

Just a quick review of these law firms reveal several attorneys from HUSL including recent grads: Arnold & Porter; Kirkland & Ellis; Latham & Watkins; Sullivan & Cromwell; Debevoise (this is by no means, exhaustive...just a quick look at some random websites)

And, I think you are misunderstanding the power of going to a top 14. It is not a panacea for the bad economy. A LOT of top 14 minorities have to hustle to get jobs including going to minority job fairs, networking, etc. Even at Top 14s, kids get shut out at OCI.


ETA: I'm not saying you SHOULD choose Howard over a top 14. I'm only suggesting there are kids every year who make the choice to do so every year and end up fine. They also might end up screwed since Howard ties financial aid to class performance.

[LSAT>LDAC]

The ONLY thing I said is that some people choose Howard over Top 14s (TRUE STATEMENT) because 1) they can graduate with zero debt (TRUE STATEMENT) and 2) because if you graduate at the top, you get the same opportunities available to t14 kids (TRUE STATEMENT). When pressed, I merely pointed out that every year there are kids at Howard Law that pursue this path successfully (TRUE STATEMENT).

How is ANY of this untrue or misleading? The person asked why someone chooses a HBCU over a Top 14, and I responded with what is the typical reason people do that.

What's the problem with the statement?

Sheesh, for a board full of aspiring lawyers, you sure do create a lot of strawmen.

Number 2 is false, and you are either misinformed on major/most firms reliance on law school's prestige with respect to their investments, naive to the reality of the disproportionate structural opportunities that underlines the rankings of law schools or working off of a false definition of "same."

If you believe that the top 10% of graduates of Howard Law have the same opportunities as the top 10% of graduates at Stanford or UPenn you're high. You cant believe same opportunity means one of the very few cases where an individual is an exception to the norm and has similar opportunities as T-14 graduate colleagues not necessarily because he excelled at Howard Law, but because he supplemented that with exceptional networking, affirmative action legislation or other variables.

*pulls out strawman*
This guy wouldn't even choose to attend a more expensive university, accumulate way more debt and compete with more competitive classes instead of going to Howard and having the "same" or better opportunity.

First of all, no one ever argued that the top 10% at Howard get the same opportunities as the Top 10% at Penn. Just that the top kids at Howard get the same or better opportunities that black kids at top 14 get. You have yet to identify one single opportunity that a kid in the top of his class at Howard CANNOT get, that a kid at a t-14 can get. Just a review of the websites of top firms reveal a Howard University presence.

Is it true that employers dig deeper in their classes at top 14s? Yes. But if you graduate at the top of your class at Howard, I know for a fact you can get biglaw at an elite firm. I know for a fact that you'll be competitive for a federal clerkship. I know for a fact that you will be attractive to the government including DOJ honors.

And, I think you are misunderstanding the power of going to a top 14. It is not a panacea for the bad economy. A LOT of top 14 minorities have to hustle to get jobs including going to minority job fairs, networking, etc. Even at Top 14s, kids get shut out at OCI.

Because I know for a fact this is false. I know two graduates of Howard Law School c/o '11 and two who graduated the previous year. One graduated in the top 5%, one in the top 10% and the other two in the top 15% of their respective classes; none got big law. To be frank you would have to be in the top 1% of your class at Howard to ENSURE what you have just guaranteed.

Is it possible to get Big law and Federal Court clerkships with a J.D from Howard, yes. Is it more probable than at a T14, Howard currently ranks 34th on the list with respect to Big law opportunity's, so no.

I believe you pose some great points and shed light on an under-acknowledged opportunity, however you have over quantified the opportunity based theoretical realities and over looked a lot of the qualitative variables.

You said if you graduate at the top of your class at Howard you get the "same" opportunities as T14, which is false. I know this to be fact not simply because of the stats that indicate such but because I have witnessed it.

[LSAT>LDAC]

ETA: I'm not saying you SHOULD choose Howard over a top 14. I'm only suggesting there are kids every year who make the choice to do so every year and end up fine. They also might end up screwed since Howard ties financial aid to class performance.

This statement sums it up a lot better.

[manthonyj92]

After reading the post I have decided that I am going to attend FAMU for law school for the simple reason that the overall expectations for its grads are slim to none, I like being the first

[LSAT>LDAC]

After reading the post I have decided that I am going to attend FAMU for law school for the simple reason that the overall expectations for its grads are slim to none, I like being the first

+1

[rad lulz]

ETA: I'm not saying you SHOULD choose Howard over a top 14. I'm only suggesting there are kids every year who make the choice to do so every year and end up fine. They also might end up screwed since Howard ties financial aid to class performance.

So... what.

[TheProsecutor]

ETA: I'm not saying you SHOULD choose Howard over a top 14. I'm only suggesting there are kids every year who make the choice to do so every year and end up fine. They also might end up screwed since Howard ties financial aid to class performance.

So... what.

So, I see the merit in choosing a HBCU law school especially if that law school is Howard. Remember, the orignal post I responded to was about how the poster couldn't see why anyone would choose an HBCU for law school.

[LSAT>LDAC]

ETA: I'm not saying you SHOULD choose Howard over a top 14. I'm only suggesting there are kids every year who make the choice to do so every year and end up fine. They also might end up screwed since Howard ties financial aid to class performance.

So... what.

So, I see the merit in choosing a HBCU law school especially if that law school is Howard. Remember, the orignal post I responded to was about how the poster couldn't see why anyone would choose an HBCU for law school.

The original post was an inquiry of the comparison between NCCU and FAMU. I see the merit in choosing a HBCU law school ONLY if that law school is Howard.