To the moderator/whoever knows - how much does URM matter? Forum

[r2b2ct]

Yeah, if you tell an AA with a 161/3.45 that he should go to Howard, it will come off as racist/offensive because Howard is a historically black law school with an average LSAT of 153 and an average GPA of 3.2.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out why.

I guess it makes sense if you're ultra sensitive about anything even indirectly relating to race. Otherwise it's a pretty dumb reason to take offense.

[Total Litigator]

You should just go to Turtle School where you belong.

How'd that feel huh?

[thechee]

No, it's consistent. The numbers aren't identical, but it's close enough that they both illustrate the same point. I would guess that 161 isn't quite 99th percentile, probably more 163-165. You make the assumption that since 17 pts represent the move from the 50th to 98th percentile on the LSAT for all applicants overrall that this applies to the black population, no? This might not be the case(the graph on pg 22 doesn't support the assumption), thus,close, though not quite. It doesn't really matter, though, 98th or 99th percentile is still pretty high.

Assuming a normal distribution, the LSAT mean for black applicants is 142.5, the 84th percentile would be 150.55, the 97.7th percentile would be 158.95, and the 99.9th percentile would be 167.35. Unless scores ranging from 159-162 all represent the 98th percentile test takers, a 160-161 is probably the 99th percentile, which I imagine is a pretty great boost to the OP.

[LAWLAW09]

So the Howard race card thing came off pretty strong. I just personally don't have any reason to go to Howard other than it being a HBC. If I was to go to a Tier 3, it would be my dad's alma mater.

Uncomfortable may be the wrong word. It's just awkward explaining to my white friends that scored higher than me why I'm able to go to a better law school than them. I get the logic behind it.

Last post concerning this issue, promise. Awkward gives the wrong impression as well. Harvard does not want -- and I'd argue no law school, let alone a "top" law school -- an apologist concerning this issue. Why? Because it screams insecurity, self-doubt, and a poor understanding of law school admissions, race relations, American history, and what segments of our society are and aren't truly meritocratic (contrary to what is posted on this site and drilled into our heads, getting into law school and scoring high on standardized exams isn't one of them). Law school is hard enough. Why would they want minorities that give off the impression that they will struggle even more b/c they're worried about or would be bothered by and distracted by White applicants or outside forces that might doubt how they got in or why they got in? We're investments. It does them no good to admit URMs that seem unprepared for the realities of law school, realities that include the possibility of dealing with racism, persons that question our intelligence, etc. Being unprepared in that way does not make a person a stronger student and it doesn't increase their chances of graduating and maximizing their potential in any institution of higher learning.


Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

[rundoxierun]

No, it's consistent. The numbers aren't identical, but it's close enough that they both illustrate the same point. I would guess that 161 isn't quite 99th percentile, probably more 163-165. You make the assumption that since 17 pts represent the move from the 50th to 98th percentile on the LSAT for all applicants overrall that this applies to the black population, no? This might not be the case(the graph on pg 22 doesn't support the assumption), thus,close, though not quite. It doesn't really matter, though, 98th or 99th percentile is still pretty high.

Assuming a normal distribution, the LSAT mean for black applicants is 142.5, the 84th percentile would be 150.55, the 97.7th percentile would be 158.95, and the 99.9th percentile would be 167.35. Unless scores ranging from 159-162 all represent the 98th percentile test takers, a 160-161 is probably the 99th percentile, which I imagine is a pretty great boost to the OP.

Dont completely assume that.

[thechee]

With an SD of 8.4, why wouldn't it be normal? Just curious. I'm the farthest thing from a statistician, so a correction is welcome.

[jalong]

I'm speaking from some experience as a student rep on my alma mater's admissions committee. URM status matters A LOT. There are simply too few URM applicants with reasonable numbers. If a school did not admit URMs with SIGNIFICANTLY lower numbers than the average admitted student, then T14 law schools would be even whiter than they are now (and that's pretty damn white).

I say shoot for the stars.

[clintonius]

So the Howard race card thing came off pretty strong. I just personally don't have any reason to go to Howard other than it being a HBC. If I was to go to a Tier 3, it would be my dad's alma mater.

Uncomfortable may be the wrong word. It's just awkward explaining to my white friends that scored higher than me why I'm able to go to a better law school than them. I get the logic behind it.

Last post concerning this issue, promise. Awkward gives the wrong impression as well. Harvard does not want -- and I'd argue no law school, let alone a "top" law school -- an apologist concerning this issue. Why? Because it screams insecurity, self-doubt, and a poor understanding of law school admissions, race relations, American history, and what segments of our society are and aren't truly meritocratic (contrary to what is posted on this site and drilled into our heads, getting into law school and scoring high on standardized exams isn't one of them). Law school is hard enough. Why would they want minorities that give off the impression that they will struggle even more b/c they're worried about or would be bothered by and distracted by White applicants or outside forces that might doubt how they got in or why they got in? We're investments. It does them no good to admit URMs that seem unprepared for the realities of law school, realities that include the possibility of dealing with racism, persons that question our intelligence, etc. Being unprepared in that way does not make a person a stronger student and it doesn't increase their chances of graduating and maximizing their potential in any institution of higher learning.


Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

Um...

[20121109]

Law school numbers has a URM accepted at Harvard with a 155 LSAT and a 3.1 GPA. On the other hand a URM was rejected from Harvard with a 165 and a 3.65.

I never knew the bumps helped this much... I know I haven't lived my life dealing with racism and oppression and everything but... I'm a little jealous of anyone who can get into a T14 with T2 numbers...

Just to be clear...the 155/3.1 URM acceptance is an obvious flame. The acceptance was posted on 11-23-09 -The very first day people were accepted into HLS. These acceptances are usually reserved for the very top candidates that applied before mid-October. There is no way a 155/3.1 URM got in on that date. iirc, though Yale has accepted a 154, the lowest reported LSAT accepted by Harvard is a 157. (I'm not 100% sure on this.) But usually any URM with a sub 160 LSAT has an above median GPA to compensate. Tbh, a 155/3.1 URM, even if s/he had awesome softs, would probably get swiftly rejected from HLS. So let's keep things in perspective. There is a definite boost, but it isn't that serious. Those numbers are simply too low.

[rundoxierun]

With an SD of 8.4, why wouldn't it be normal? Just curious. I'm the farthest thing from a statistician, so a correction is welcome.

I think I may have seen some stuff a while back that indicated that the scores kind of clump.. altho, the median is very low and a vast majority score lower than 160 there is a bigger clump at the higher scores than would be indicated if it was strictly a normal distribution. Not saying it is FAR off from normal but if i recall correctly there is a bit of a difference. I would think the myriad of programs available to the "better" urm students would account for the clumping

[094320]

..

[lisjjen]

Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

I guarantee that I can deal with racism. Trust me, growing up in Idaho, I've had to handle a LOT of Ignorance. I talk about the awkwardness I feel here, but I definitely know how to put on my game face when talking to decision makers. Anything I talk about in regards to feeling weird about a bump is strictly OT. If the advantage is there, I'm definitely going to use it. Just like if I was white but had strong legacy or my dad was a celebrity.

[r2b2ct]

Assuming roughly 350 black applicants enroll at the T14 every year, and only ~100 score at or above 165 per year, I think it is very clear why a 161 puts the OP competitive for at least mid-lower T14s. There would have to be some really major clumpage to counter that.

You should just go to Turtle School where you belong.

How'd that feel huh?

[clintonius]

Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

I guarantee that I can deal with racism. Trust me, growing up in Idaho, I've had to handle a LOT of Ignorance. I talk about the awkwardness I feel here, but I definitely know how to put on my game face when talking to decision makers. Anything I talk about in regards to feeling weird about a bump is strictly OT. If the advantage is there, I'm definitely going to use it. Just like if I was white but had strong legacy or my dad was a celebrity.

Did I miss a Howard/Harvard merger recently?

[lisjjen]

Assuming roughly 350 black applicants enroll at the T14 every year, and only ~100 score at or above 165 per year, I think it is very clear why a 161 puts the OP competitive for at least mid-lower T14s. There would have to be some really major clumpage to counter that.

You should just go to Turtle School where you belong.

How'd that feel huh?

He was making a joke. (Your avatar is a turtle).

Without starting a war, because I would really like to think everyone on this forum is more mature than that, I don't feel like everyone suggesting Howard is being racist per se. However, I'm talking about T14 (and to be fair, so are you) but then to drop down the list by about 140 is a HUGE drop. The only reason I would have for going there is my color. That seems a little odd.

[creatinganalt]

Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

I guarantee that I can deal with racism. Trust me, growing up in Idaho, I've had to handle a LOT of Ignorance. I talk about the awkwardness I feel here, but I definitely know how to put on my game face when talking to decision makers. Anything I talk about in regards to feeling weird about a bump is strictly OT. If the advantage is there, I'm definitely going to use it. Just like if I was white but had strong legacy or my dad was a celebrity.

Jesus Christ, stop being such a baby.

[Oban]

URM cycles are bizzare, just apply from CCN to WashU and maybe a safety here or there.

[ck3]

Assuming roughly 350 black applicants enroll at the T14 every year, and only ~100 score at or above 165 per year, I think it is very clear why a 161 puts the OP competitive for at least mid-lower T14s. There would have to be some really major clumpage to counter that.

You should just go to Turtle School where you belong.

How'd that feel huh?

He was making a joke. (Your avatar is a turtle).

Without starting a war, because I would really like to think everyone on this forum is more mature than that, I don't feel like everyone suggesting Howard is being racist per se. However, I'm talking about T14 (and to be fair, so are you) but then to drop down the list by about 140 is a HUGE drop. The only reason I would have for going there is my color. That seems a little odd.

The reason Howard is suggested is because it is a good option for high scoring African Americans because of their big law placement. Even though it is not highly ranked school many of the large prestigous law firms recruit at Howard because historically that is what they had to do to promote diversity in their firms. Not sure they have to do it for that reason now but the firms still recruit from there.

[lisjjen]

Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

I guarantee that I can deal with racism. Trust me, growing up in Idaho, I've had to handle a LOT of Ignorance. I talk about the awkwardness I feel here, but I definitely know how to put on my game face when talking to decision makers. Anything I talk about in regards to feeling weird about a bump is strictly OT. If the advantage is there, I'm definitely going to use it. Just like if I was white but had strong legacy or my dad was a celebrity.

Jesus Christ, stop being such a baby.

Hi. Next time somebody spits at you and calls you a n****r for looking at them, let's chat.

The reason Howard is suggested is because it is a good option for high scoring African Americans because of their big law placement. Even though it is not highly ranked school many of the large prestigous law firms recruit at Howard because historically that is what they had to do to promote diversity in their firms. Not sure they have to do it for that reason now but the firms still recruit from there.

Understood. If I get a fee waiver I'll apply.

[creatinganalt]

Harvard doesn't apologize to anybody about accepting any applicant that they admit. It doesn't offer apologies to the White applicants they accept, the White applicants they reject, the high scoring URMs they reject, and they certainly won't offer any apologies to your White friends. What do you know about race relations, putting together a law school class, or developing persons to impact the world that they don't? What do your White friends know that they don't? Harvard does not view accepting some lower scoring applicants, URM and non-URM, as unfair or unnecessary.

If we were talking about any other school I would not have responded in this way. But, all indications lead me to believe that Harvard would accept more, not less, lower scoring applicants if they "could."

I guarantee that I can deal with racism. Trust me, growing up in Idaho, I've had to handle a LOT of Ignorance. I talk about the awkwardness I feel here, but I definitely know how to put on my game face when talking to decision makers. Anything I talk about in regards to feeling weird about a bump is strictly OT. If the advantage is there, I'm definitely going to use it. Just like if I was white but had strong legacy or my dad was a celebrity.

Jesus Christ, stop being such a baby.

Hi. Next time somebody spits at you and calls you a n****r for looking at them, let's chat.

1. Yeah, being called a n****r has only ever happened to you. Moron.

2. I meant: stop being such a baby about your school choices. If you really feel sooooo guilty that you need to justify a URM bump to your white friends, then those racists did their job well.

Btw - if you can't see how having to face the additional burden of people spitting and you and calling you a n***** may relate to things like affirmative action then the 161 is the least of your problems.

[bleu]

Just to lighten the mood.



--ImageRemoved--

Don't be sad OP, be excited about the prospects. If I were you I would apply everywhere that gave you a free waiver and the top 20 apart from yale. You minus well.


Did anyone suggest op retake the lsat yet. (didn't read every post)

[bleu]

--ImageRemoved--

sorry just found out about this meme generator thing and now i cant stop.

[lisjjen]

1. Yeah, being called a n****r has only ever happened to you. Moron.

Is that so? Well, I hope you live in some nice liberal town in the Northeast where all racism is taboo all the time, but I wasn't talking about a hypothetical. This has happened to me more than once. You might have heard about the Aryan Nation? They were headquartered in Idaho for decades.

sorry just found out about this meme generator thing and now i cant stop.

I feel like you add to the conversation.

[bleu]

I would put

They were headquartered in Idaho for decades.

into the diversity statement. I hope you are collecting this material, its good stuff.

[lisjjen]

And I guess I should get this out now for the retake crowd. Based on my PTs, I feel lucky to have gotten a 161. I am not crushingly obsessed with the USNWR ratings. You tell me I have a shot at GULC and Cornell and a near lock on University of Washington or other similarly ranked schools? Sounds good to me. I don't want to ruin that by retaking the LSAT and dropping 5 points.