URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread Forum

[S.Picquery]

Agreed with all that dc_diva said. It's also important to remember that many of these schools especially in the T14 care about how you self-identify and are sensitive to such things, especially because they're educating students in the year 2017. That isn't to say you can pull a Rachel Dolezal and call yourself something you aren't.

Not to mention everyone on here thinks that he or she is an expert. and then when someone turns around and gets into a T7 with a 156 and isn't a "URM" per the LSAC definition NOR a Rhodes/Fulbright NOR the person who cured malaria on two separate continents, they scramble for ways to make sense of the acceptance. It's the same thing when people with incredible numbers get rejected. The assumption is "YP" - but uh, what if the readers just didn't like your application? Yeah, I guess the latter is more difficult to swallow.

Point is, this isn't purely the numbers game it is made out to be. I've learned that first-hand this cycle.

I don't think the self-identify thing is so much relevant to race as it is other things. Because yes, there are Tacehl Dolezal's (& also white ppl who have a far removed minority relative somewhere & are suddenly black or Native American or whatever they wanna claim with hopes of using it to their benefit for admissions).

Agreed. I've seen many people on TLS ask if they get boosts if, for example, they find out their parent or grandparent they have no relationship with is Mexican/Native/Black, and the answer is "technically...yes" but I'd also add "but if you don't actually culturally self-identify then I think you are an a-hole."

^This. I am on the flip side of the URM coin, where I *look* very pale (even though my features give a hint to the fact that I was raised in a Latinx household with a Latinx family). I spent tons of time with my family in Argentina, my family all looks (and is) Latinx. Except for me. Because of my "look" I was told I shouldn't apply as URM for UG, and I thought I was gonna flip a shit. Anyway... that was an unnecessary little rant, but there you go.

Yeah, that's complete bullshit. There's a lot of "white-passing" minorities. Ironically enough, I was just looking at an article talking about the fact that Paris Jackson (who is pretty "white-passing" if you haven't seen her) said she identifies as a black woman and people on Twitter were flipping out like she's not black It annoys me that a lot of THOSE types of conversations are ones you have with other minorities. Like, how do minorities think it's okay to tell other minorities they're not [insert race] ENOUGH because they don't exhibit all of the common physical features or whatever?

Psht, I get this on all sides, too, because I'm bisexual with a long-term (almost 6 years?) same-sex partner. Straight people think I'm gay (too gay for them), and gay folks think I can't be trusted, like I'm infiltrating queer spaces. Like, nah bro, I just like really hot people.

Basically, whether is POC or lesbian/gay folks, I'm just not enough of anything to count. Oh well, I'mma keep doing me with my badass grades/future/life choices/partner.

[brinicolec]

Agreed with all that dc_diva said. It's also important to remember that many of these schools especially in the T14 care about how you self-identify and are sensitive to such things, especially because they're educating students in the year 2017. That isn't to say you can pull a Rachel Dolezal and call yourself something you aren't.

Not to mention everyone on here thinks that he or she is an expert. and then when someone turns around and gets into a T7 with a 156 and isn't a "URM" per the LSAC definition NOR a Rhodes/Fulbright NOR the person who cured malaria on two separate continents, they scramble for ways to make sense of the acceptance. It's the same thing when people with incredible numbers get rejected. The assumption is "YP" - but uh, what if the readers just didn't like your application? Yeah, I guess the latter is more difficult to swallow.

Point is, this isn't purely the numbers game it is made out to be. I've learned that first-hand this cycle.

I don't think the self-identify thing is so much relevant to race as it is other things. Because yes, there are Tacehl Dolezal's (& also white ppl who have a far removed minority relative somewhere & are suddenly black or Native American or whatever they wanna claim with hopes of using it to their benefit for admissions).

Agreed. I've seen many people on TLS ask if they get boosts if, for example, they find out their parent or grandparent they have no relationship with is Mexican/Native/Black, and the answer is "technically...yes" but I'd also add "but if you don't actually culturally self-identify then I think you are an a-hole."

^This. I am on the flip side of the URM coin, where I *look* very pale (even though my features give a hint to the fact that I was raised in a Latinx household with a Latinx family). I spent tons of time with my family in Argentina, my family all looks (and is) Latinx. Except for me. Because of my "look" I was told I shouldn't apply as URM for UG, and I thought I was gonna flip a shit. Anyway... that was an unnecessary little rant, but there you go.

Yeah, that's complete bullshit. There's a lot of "white-passing" minorities. Ironically enough, I was just looking at an article talking about the fact that Paris Jackson (who is pretty "white-passing" if you haven't seen her) said she identifies as a black woman and people on Twitter were flipping out like she's not black It annoys me that a lot of THOSE types of conversations are ones you have with other minorities. Like, how do minorities think it's okay to tell other minorities they're not [insert race] ENOUGH because they don't exhibit all of the common physical features or whatever?

Psht, I get this on all sides, too, because I'm bisexual with a long-term (almost 6 years?) same-sex partner. Straight people think I'm gay (too gay for them), and gay folks think I can't be trusted, like I'm infiltrating queer spaces. Like, nah bro, I just like really hot people.

Basically, whether is POC or lesbian/gay folks, I'm just not enough of anything to count. Oh well, I'mma keep doing me with my badass grades/future/life choices/partner.

Lol, yeah. That's the way to look at it! It's weird 'cause it's like so what exactly is everyone's ideal ratio since everyone seems to think they know how much is too much/just enough.

Some people are saying it's because allegedly, Paris Jackson isn't ACTUALLY Michael Jackson's child, but to me it's like... If she still sees him as her father and he was black, and you know, told her she's black, then how can people be mad that she believes she's black (even if it turns out she's not because it's eventually proven she's not ACTUALLY Michael Jackson's child).

[Mr_Chukes]

That's the thing, there will always people trying to benefit anyway they can. They identify as white because they don't want to go through the struggles that we URMs go through. On the other hand though, they want to get some of our good Karma.

[SybillAnnDorsett]

Plz don't quote -

I see what you're saying with self-identification, and I'm sorry if my comment wasn't clear. I meant it more for questions like the one found on the NYU app (something to the effect of "do you consider yourself a URM") and for people who can genuinely claim that they are Latinx or Hispanic regardless of whether they are white-passing or, more importantly, of whether LSAC thinks we are URM (who, btw, is using an outdated set of definitions based on racialized rhetoric surrounding immigration in the 1920s). I think schools are more understanding of the fact that a Cuban person with refugee parents like me is more a URM than he is a non-URM hispanic, as many TLSers would prefer to describe me. I don't care if there's a boost. I feel that I'm underrepresented and a minority. It's that simple.

That said I certainly won't argue with the posts above about race as I'm fully in agreement with what's been said! Sorry for this rant, too - I've just been dying to say something because some users (not unlike those who say that biracial white-passing black folks are not black enough and therefore can't claim "blackness") feel they can label or force anyone into a box. It's about your personal experience, point blank.

[S.Picquery]

mm2368, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head there, bud. =)

[CatherineZetaScarn1]

^This. I am on the flip side of the URM coin, where I *look* very pale (even though my features give a hint to the fact that I was raised in a Latinx household with a Latinx family). I spent tons of time with my family in Argentina, my family all looks (and is) Latinx. Except for me. Because of my "look" I was told I shouldn't apply as URM for UG, and I thought I was gonna flip a shit. Anyway... that was an unnecessary little rant, but there you go.

I have a similar experience! I grew up in a small town where everyone knew I was Hispanic (and came from an undocumented family) and totally treated me like it, ugh Oklahoma.
When I got to college, I realized no one would ever know if I didn't tell them I was Mexican so I just kind of let it slide. It took me a while to come to terms and be more up front about my heritage and now it's an every day battle of trying to explain. I wrote about it in my diversity statement because living in Oklahoma has scarred me and I hate dealing with the questions.

I swear to god on my gravestone, I just want it to say "there are white people in Mexico."

[S.Picquery]

^This. I am on the flip side of the URM coin, where I *look* very pale (even though my features give a hint to the fact that I was raised in a Latinx household with a Latinx family). I spent tons of time with my family in Argentina, my family all looks (and is) Latinx. Except for me. Because of my "look" I was told I shouldn't apply as URM for UG, and I thought I was gonna flip a shit. Anyway... that was an unnecessary little rant, but there you go.

I have a similar experience! I grew up in a small town where everyone knew I was Hispanic (and came from an undocumented family) and totally treated me like it, ugh Oklahoma.
When I got to college, I realized no one would ever know if I didn't tell them I was Mexican so I just kind of let it slide. It took me a while to come to terms and be more up front about my heritage and now it's an every day battle of trying to explain. I wrote about it in my diversity statement because living in Oklahoma has scarred me and I hate dealing with the questions.

I swear to god on my gravestone, I just want it to say "there are white people in Mexico."

You might enjoy Linda Alcoff's writing. She studies whiteness as a "white" Latina. She has such works as "The Future of Whiteness" and like a million articles/other books. It speaks to something probably pretty similar to what you're describing, and she just has some really interesting analysis on the shifting definitions of race, and especially whiteness.

Most of my diversity essays were like "LET ME TELL YOU A THING ABOUT BEING A LATINA AND A JEW: #1 WE EXIST" lol

[hammy393]

New cycle data (va Spivey) is out: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/cycle-data-01-20-17/

Scores so far from applicants this cycle, # of applicants, % change from last year
155 1,044 21.1%
156 1,049 -2.1%
157 1,007 11.9%
158 833 -24.6%
159 1,062 26.4%
160 1,006 -2.5%
161 832 -9.1%
162 781 15.5%
163 997 1.4%
164 931 3.3%
165 537 -21.0%
166 673 6.3%
167 660 -19.7%
168 615 17.4%
169 416 -43.6%
170 683 41.4%
171 312 -20.4%
172 276 -18.3%
173 231 -10.8%
174 176 -20.7%
175 122 -7.6%
176 38 -67.5%
177 88 7.3%
178 45 -13.5%
179 26 -10.3%
180 17 -52.8%

American Indian or Alaska Native 509 -5.7%
Asian 3,105 -0.2%
Black or African American 3,120 -4.1%
Canadian Aboriginal 12 -45.5%
Caucasian/White 17,724 -1.9%
Hispanic/Latino 3,039 -1.3%
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander 112 2.8%
Puerto Rican 655 0.6%

[armc808]

New cycle data (va Spivey) is out: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/cycle-data-01-20-17/

Scores so far from applicants this cycle, # of applicants, % change from last year
155 1,044 21.1%
156 1,049 -2.1%
157 1,007 11.9%
158 833 -24.6%
159 1,062 26.4%
160 1,006 -2.5%
161 832 -9.1%
162 781 15.5%
163 997 1.4%
164 931 3.3%
165 537 -21.0%
166 673 6.3%
167 660 -19.7%
168 615 17.4%
169 416 -43.6%
170 683 41.4%
171 312 -20.4%
172 276 -18.3%
173 231 -10.8%
174 176 -20.7%
175 122 -7.6%
176 38 -67.5%
177 88 7.3%
178 45 -13.5%
179 26 -10.3%
180 17 -52.8%

American Indian or Alaska Native 509 -5.7%
Asian 3,105 -0.2%
Black or African American 3,120 -4.1%
Canadian Aboriginal 12 -45.5%
Caucasian/White 17,724 -1.9%
Hispanic/Latino 3,039 -1.3%
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander 112 2.8%
Puerto Rican 655 0.6%

Wow. Looks like even after the Dec test both scores and applicants are still down for the most part.

[uhwrestler]

New cycle data (va Spivey) is out: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/cycle-data-01-20-17/

Scores so far from applicants this cycle, # of applicants, % change from last year
155 1,044 21.1%
156 1,049 -2.1%
157 1,007 11.9%
158 833 -24.6%
159 1,062 26.4%
160 1,006 -2.5%
161 832 -9.1%
162 781 15.5%
163 997 1.4%
164 931 3.3%
165 537 -21.0%
166 673 6.3%
167 660 -19.7%
168 615 17.4%
169 416 -43.6%
170 683 41.4%
171 312 -20.4%
172 276 -18.3%
173 231 -10.8%
174 176 -20.7%
175 122 -7.6%
176 38 -67.5%
177 88 7.3%
178 45 -13.5%
179 26 -10.3%
180 17 -52.8%

American Indian or Alaska Native 509 -5.7%
Asian 3,105 -0.2%
Black or African American 3,120 -4.1%
Canadian Aboriginal 12 -45.5%
Caucasian/White 17,724 -1.9%
Hispanic/Latino 3,039 -1.3%
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander 112 2.8%
Puerto Rican 655 0.6%

Wow. Looks like even after the Dec test both scores and applicants are still down for the most part.

yea looks like urm applicants are down and top score applicants are down
this probably means urm's with top scores are also down
i hope this translates into acceptances into top school where my stats are borderline(for urm standards)

[brinicolec]

New cycle data (va Spivey) is out: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/cycle-data-01-20-17/

Scores so far from applicants this cycle, # of applicants, % change from last year
155 1,044 21.1%
156 1,049 -2.1%
157 1,007 11.9%
158 833 -24.6%
159 1,062 26.4%
160 1,006 -2.5%
161 832 -9.1%
162 781 15.5%
163 997 1.4%
164 931 3.3%
165 537 -21.0%
166 673 6.3%
167 660 -19.7%
168 615 17.4%
169 416 -43.6%
170 683 41.4%
171 312 -20.4%
172 276 -18.3%
173 231 -10.8%
174 176 -20.7%
175 122 -7.6%
176 38 -67.5%
177 88 7.3%
178 45 -13.5%
179 26 -10.3%
180 17 -52.8%

American Indian or Alaska Native 509 -5.7%
Asian 3,105 -0.2%
Black or African American 3,120 -4.1%
Canadian Aboriginal 12 -45.5%
Caucasian/White 17,724 -1.9%
Hispanic/Latino 3,039 -1.3%
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander 112 2.8%
Puerto Rican 655 0.6%

Wow. Looks like even after the Dec test both scores and applicants are still down for the most part.

yea looks like urm applicants are down and top score applicants are down
this probably means urm's with top scores are also down
i hope this translates into acceptances into top school where my stats are borderline(for urm standards)

Right? Pick me!!! For diversity!!!!!! Lol

[armc808]

New cycle data (va Spivey) is out: http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/cycle-data-01-20-17/

Scores so far from applicants this cycle, # of applicants, % change from last year
155 1,044 21.1%
156 1,049 -2.1%
157 1,007 11.9%
158 833 -24.6%
159 1,062 26.4%
160 1,006 -2.5%
161 832 -9.1%
162 781 15.5%
163 997 1.4%
164 931 3.3%
165 537 -21.0%
166 673 6.3%
167 660 -19.7%
168 615 17.4%
169 416 -43.6%
170 683 41.4%
171 312 -20.4%
172 276 -18.3%
173 231 -10.8%
174 176 -20.7%
175 122 -7.6%
176 38 -67.5%
177 88 7.3%
178 45 -13.5%
179 26 -10.3%
180 17 -52.8%

American Indian or Alaska Native 509 -5.7%
Asian 3,105 -0.2%
Black or African American 3,120 -4.1%
Canadian Aboriginal 12 -45.5%
Caucasian/White 17,724 -1.9%
Hispanic/Latino 3,039 -1.3%
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander 112 2.8%
Puerto Rican 655 0.6%

Wow. Looks like even after the Dec test both scores and applicants are still down for the most part.

yea looks like urm applicants are down and top score applicants are down
this probably means urm's with top scores are also down
i hope this translates into acceptances into top school where my stats are borderline(for urm standards)

Right? Pick me!!! For diversity!!!!!! Lol

[S.Picquery]

Now that the Women's March is over, if any of y'all need a movement that reps you (instead of mostly white feminism), at the Wash Sq rally last night it was a totally different vibe. The movements being promoted by the women's march org right now seen like they won't all be pink pussy hats and weird inherent exclusion.

Note: this post is not meant to shit on the Women's March, or say that it wasn't important (that's another discussion for another thread). It is meant to touch on the lack of POC representation there.

[chasima]

<3

[S.Picquery]

Now that the Women's March is over, if any of y'all need a movement that reps you (instead of mostly white feminism), at the Wash Sq rally last night it was a totally different vibe. The movements being promoted by the women's march org right now seen like they won't all be pink pussy hats and weird inherent exclusion.

Note: this post is not meant to shit on the Women's March, or say that it wasn't important (that's another discussion for another thread). It is meant to touch on the lack of POC representation there.

Ugh I wanted to go to that rally! I got a fb invite but was stuck studying for this Feb LSAT retake Can't wait until this test is over

Well, if ever you need a moment away from the books (preferably after a 180 PT) you should join!

[2000andBeyond]

Can't wait to connect with my POC in law school. Y'all lit.

[texcellence]

Can't wait to connect with my POC in law school. Y'all lit.

+1000

[texcellence]

Can't wait to connect with my POC in law school. Y'all lit.

+1000

I mean, I work at a V30 firm which is hella yt despite all its ~diversity award accolades, so I understand the reality of this profession BUUUUUuUt I'm still excited as hell to join forces with LALSA/BLSA/APALSA folx.

[2000andBeyond]

Can't wait to connect with my POC in law school. Y'all lit.

+1000

I mean, I work at a V30 firm which is hella yt despite all its ~diversity award accolades, so I understand the reality of this profession BUUUUUuUt I'm still excited as hell to join forces with LALSA/BLSA/APALSA folx.

Yes! Exactly...

[Torres1893]

I'm really looking forward to meeting some URMs in law school too. That being said is anyone a little concerned about going to a school that doesn't really have a lot of diversity?

I went to UH for undergrad and currently live in Houston, so I never feel like a minority wherever I go. When I grew up in Michigan it was different. I lived in a white neighborhood and went to a primarily white school system. It was fine for elementary and stuff, but in middle school and high school it was a bit difficult. I'm a male MA and have brown skin, but I guess my facial characteristics to a lot of people made me appear if I was from the middle east. I experienced various degrees of racism intended for a different race, and it hurt. It's difficult to talk about it.

Anyways I don't want to experience that again, or feel like how I did back then. I just want to go to a school where I can find people to relate to. Sorry for the depressing post, just really had to get it off my chest.

[2000andBeyond]

I'm really looking forward to meeting some URMs in law school too. That being said is anyone a little concerned about going to a school that doesn't really have a lot of diversity?

I went to UH for undergrad and currently live in Houston, so I never feel like a minority wherever I go. When I grew up in Michigan it was different. I lived in a white neighborhood and went to a primarily white school system. It was fine for elementary and stuff, but in middle school and high school it was a bit difficult. I'm a male MA and have brown skin, but I guess my facial characteristics to a lot of people made me appear if I was from the middle east. I experienced various degrees of racism intended for a different race, and it hurt. It's difficult to talk about it.

Anyways I don't want to experience that again, or feel like how I did back then. I just want to go to a school where I can find people to relate to. Sorry for the depressing post, just really had to get it off my chest.

Oh for sure. I think about this all the time...

I am an AA and went to high school abroad and then headed straight to UVA. My graduating class had about 75 students, representing 38 different countries. You can only imagine what a jarringly contrasting experience my first year of college was. I feel that the transition was so rough for me and so many other minority students in my Class. I am definitely keeping that in mind when I pick a law school. Prestige is super important (which is why we are all in this forum lol) BUT, comfort and social life are equally important factors. For me, there is a direct correlation between those aspects and success.

I think when picking a law school, it is important for you to keep in mind the location too. Maybe the school is not the most diverse in the traditional sense but the location (Boston, Philly, Chi etc) is progressive and friendly. I am really sorry to hear about your awful experiences in Michigan I hope we all end up in a place we are genuinely happy to be in. After all, three years is no joke!

[S.Picquery]

I'm really looking forward to meeting some URMs in law school too. That being said is anyone a little concerned about going to a school that doesn't really have a lot of diversity?

I went to UH for undergrad and currently live in Houston, so I never feel like a minority wherever I go. When I grew up in Michigan it was different. I lived in a white neighborhood and went to a primarily white school system. It was fine for elementary and stuff, but in middle school and high school it was a bit difficult. I'm a male MA and have brown skin, but I guess my facial characteristics to a lot of people made me appear if I was from the middle east. I experienced various degrees of racism intended for a different race, and it hurt. It's difficult to talk about it.

Anyways I don't want to experience that again, or feel like how I did back then. I just want to go to a school where I can find people to relate to. Sorry for the depressing post, just really had to get it off my chest.

Not depressing! This is totally a valid concern. Your happiness in law school is very likely to affect your grades, so it is a factor you really need to consider. I think the best way to alleive any anxiety you have about this, you may consider holding off your decision on where to go until after you visit the schools you're accepted into.

I went to UG at a school that is always in the top 10 (usually top 3) most diverse schools for the US. This was not a big a deal for me, as it turns out. I still had to deal with racism and sexism and BS like that from even other URMs on the regular. The only spaces where that was properly dealt with was in (try not to cringe) "safe spaces" because the people in those clubs wouldn't tolerate bigotry. So, I look forward to being a part of Ouylaws and LAS orgs.

You're going to have to find what works for you. I hope that helps.

[lnsl123]

.

[2000andBeyond]

Maybe the school is not the most diverse in the traditional sense but the location (Boston, Philly, Chi etc) is progressive and friendly.

I think we should all be careful about this point. And AA males especially. I went to UChicago for UG. Black students made up about 4% during my time. My main issue was the dynamics of the location of the school within the city. UChicago is in Hyde Park, a relatively progressive and affluent neighborhood in the greater South Side. The adjacent neighborhoods were some of the most dangerous and economically depressed in the city. Those neighborhoods were not a problem, it was how the campus community felt about it. You could feel the tension at times. And as an AA male student in that setting, it could be difficult. But nothing I'm saying is new to any black American.

I'm also generally skeptical of cities that are so called progressive. There is a history of racism in northeastern cities that doesn't get spoken of a lot. Especially in Boston. Even in NYC, where I live now, this 'elitist liberal place' is full of examples of racism. It's often just more covert. Not trying to be a downer. But I think it's important for us to remain resilient. The legal profession is still struggling with diversity and inclusion.

Thanks for bringing up this salient point. I guess I meant in the broader sense, one would have more luck finding refuge in a diverse city than a small, predominantly white college town. You are right...resilience is key.

[brinicolec]

I'm really looking forward to meeting some URMs in law school too. That being said is anyone a little concerned about going to a school that doesn't really have a lot of diversity?

I went to UH for undergrad and currently live in Houston, so I never feel like a minority wherever I go. When I grew up in Michigan it was different. I lived in a white neighborhood and went to a primarily white school system. It was fine for elementary and stuff, but in middle school and high school it was a bit difficult. I'm a male MA and have brown skin, but I guess my facial characteristics to a lot of people made me appear if I was from the middle east. I experienced various degrees of racism intended for a different race, and it hurt. It's difficult to talk about it.

Anyways I don't want to experience that again, or feel like how I did back then. I just want to go to a school where I can find people to relate to. Sorry for the depressing post, just really had to get it off my chest.

I went to a PWI in North Carolina but, from what I understand, the black community there and the black community at most top LSs will be kind of the same -- band together because there's so few of us.

The worst part about that was a lack of diverse parties and stuff + the black community was so small that it was like everybody knew everybody's business. Idk if LS will be as gossipy though.

I'm just hoping I can meet some quality ppl in LS who end up working in the same area I do so we can remain friends lol