URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread Forum

[blackbirdfly]

Zero motivation to write my Yale two fidy =/

Same.

+1

[EvMont]

Ev, what if it's a choice between NYU with no money and Cornell with $$$?

Cornell's alumni network probably does run deep, but Cornell Law's alumni network would be more important to you, for awhile at least.

NYU's class size is larger and has been ranked in the top 6 for a long time, which means that in the legal community their name is very well known and their alumni network is actually larger just due to sheer numbers alone.

That would be a much harder decision. $$$ can be a serious game changer. I'm not sure which I'd choose. Personally, I see little inherent value in the Ivy brand at the law school level, for a couple of reasons:

1.The prominence of the US News rankings system and the various layers of widely perceived prestige even within the T14 (ie HYS vs. CCN v. PVBM...)

2. The prestige of most Ivies (the universities, generally & the law schools, particularly) transcends the prestige of the Ivy brand. That is, Harvard, Yale (and a few others) are prestigious not because they are Ivies, but because they are Harvard, Yale, etc.

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

[calle_25]

Hey all! Been lurking for a few weeks and finally checking in. So much inspiration in this thread! I applied very late in the cycle (early January) so I'm wayyyy behind all of you in terms of hearing back from schools. Nevertheless my hope remains high!

[AAJD2B]

Ev, what if it's a choice between NYU with no money and Cornell with $$$?

Nabadgelyo, true but I still think the Cornell name is more easily recognizable than the NYU name, especially overseas. Cornell's alumni network runs deep...as is the case for any Ivy I would imagine.

Cornell's alumni network probably does run deep, but Cornell Law's alumni network would be more important to you, for awhile at least.

NYU's class size is larger and has been ranked in the top 6 for a long time, which means that in the legal community their name is very well known and their alumni network is actually larger just due to sheer numbers alone.

I was actually referencing Cornell Law's alumni base, thank you very much. Not to mention the Black Ivy League associations that come with the territory.

Interestingly enough, I recently received an email invite by the same Cornell to attend an alumni dinner and service awards, and I am just an admitted student. I will certainly inquire on how deep this network runs and hopefully meet and speak to URM alumni who can speak of same at this event.

Ivy or non-Ivy, T6 or T14, we are all trying to run the same rat race in a changing legal market. It is my hope that wherever I decide to attend, I will mitigate expenses to attend law school, and it is a well-known fact that Cornell Law isn't stingy when it comes to admitted minority students.

[applelover]

Hey all! Been lurking for a few weeks and finally checking in. So much inspiration in this thread! I applied very late in the cycle (early January) so I'm wayyyy behind all of you in terms of hearing back from schools. Nevertheless my hope remains high!

Welcome!

[applelover]

Out of curiosity, is anyone ITT t-14 or bust?

[calle_25]

Thank you apple! And you are número uno inspiration. Talk about killing it!

[AAJD2B]

Ev, what if it's a choice between NYU with no money and Cornell with $$$?

Cornell's alumni network probably does run deep, but Cornell Law's alumni network would be more important to you, for awhile at least.

NYU's class size is larger and has been ranked in the top 6 for a long time, which means that in the legal community their name is very well known and their alumni network is actually larger just due to sheer numbers alone.

That would be a much harder decision. $$$ can be a serious game changer. I'm not sure which I'd choose. Personally, I see little inherent value in the Ivy brand at the law school level, for a couple of reasons:

1.The prominence of the US News rankings system and the various layers of widely perceived prestige even within the T14 (ie HYS vs. CCN v. PVBM...)

2. The prestige of most Ivies (the universities, generally & the law schools, particularly) transcends the prestige of the Ivy brand. That is, Harvard, Yale (and a few others) are prestigious not because they are Ivies, but because they are Harvard, Yale, etc.

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

I dunno about #3 hun. Ivy label can matter for work politics. Folks are so quick to judge in corporate offices and law firms are no exception. This especially holds true for URMs. Yes, they are still quick to judge us on skin color. I have not only seen it but experienced it by hiring partners and associates.

[Percival Jenkins]

Ev, what if it's a choice between NYU with no money and Cornell with $$$?

Cornell's alumni network probably does run deep, but Cornell Law's alumni network would be more important to you, for awhile at least.

NYU's class size is larger and has been ranked in the top 6 for a long time, which means that in the legal community their name is very well known and their alumni network is actually larger just due to sheer numbers alone.

That would be a much harder decision. $$$ can be a serious game changer. I'm not sure which I'd choose. Personally, I see little inherent value in the Ivy brand at the law school level, for a couple of reasons:

1.The prominence of the US News rankings system and the various layers of widely perceived prestige even within the T14 (ie HYS vs. CCN v. PVBM...)

2. The prestige of most Ivies (the universities, generally & the law schools, particularly) transcends the prestige of the Ivy brand. That is, Harvard, Yale (and a few others) are prestigious not because they are Ivies, but because they are Harvard, Yale, etc.

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

The largest percentage of the USNWR rankings is perception from the legal field so Ivies will always be highly ranked. But I agree with you in the sense that the tiers exist and the only real game changer is $$$. There is an ivy in every tier of the T14 HY-C-P-Cornell and most people around here would say within the tiers, at pretty much equal cost, go where you would be happy. Where I think TLS is lacking is whether this makes a difference down the road past paying off the debt, which is very important. Does Cornell open up more doors down the road than Duke? I don't think anyone can say for sure. But one thing is for sure, a lot of your value will depend on your quality of work during the early years of your career. So whatever your goals are, PI or Biglaw, midlaw or small law, make sure you make yourself valuable.

[EvMont]

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

I dunno about #3 hun. Ivy label can matter for work politics. Folks are so quick to judge in corporate offices and law firms are no exception. This especially holds true for URMs. Yes, they are still quick to judge us on skin color. I have not only seen it but experienced it by hiring partners and associates.

Oh, yes! TOUCHE.

I think we all value schools for different reasons. For me, Ivy doesn't make much of a different, but I think for you it does. So, embrace that. I know have some really ridiculous reasons for liking or disliking some schools, and try as they might, none of my friends are gonna convince me to change my mind. I think we all just have to listen to our own gut feelings when choosing schools, etc.

tl;dr - Do you, girl!

[ChuggaChuggaChooChoo]

Out of curiosity, is anyone ITT t-14 or bust?

I am...have no prob waiting another cycle if I don't get T-14

No real good schools where I have regional ties

[t-14orbust]

Out of curiosity, is anyone ITT t-14 or bust?

uhh yeah..lol

[AAJD2B]

Ev, what if it's a choice between NYU with no money and Cornell with $$$?

Cornell's alumni network probably does run deep, but Cornell Law's alumni network would be more important to you, for awhile at least.

NYU's class size is larger and has been ranked in the top 6 for a long time, which means that in the legal community their name is very well known and their alumni network is actually larger just due to sheer numbers alone.

That would be a much harder decision. $$$ can be a serious game changer. I'm not sure which I'd choose. Personally, I see little inherent value in the Ivy brand at the law school level, for a couple of reasons:

1.The prominence of the US News rankings system and the various layers of widely perceived prestige even within the T14 (ie HYS vs. CCN v. PVBM...)

2. The prestige of most Ivies (the universities, generally & the law schools, particularly) transcends the prestige of the Ivy brand. That is, Harvard, Yale (and a few others) are prestigious not because they are Ivies, but because they are Harvard, Yale, etc.

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

The largest percentage of the USNWR rankings is perception from the legal field so Ivies will always be highly ranked. But I agree with you in the sense that the tiers exist and the only real game changer is $$$. There is an ivy in every tier of the T14 HY-C-P-Cornell and most people around here would say within the tiers, at pretty much equal cost, go where you would be happy. Where I think TLS is lacking is whether this makes a difference down the road past paying off the debt, which is very important. Does Cornell open up more doors down the road than Duke? I don't think anyone can say for sure. But one thing is for sure, a lot of your value will depend on your quality of work during the early years of your career. So whatever your goals are, PI or Biglaw, midlaw or small law, make sure you make yourself valuable.

School name/reputation opens the door, work product keeps you in the door. By the third year of our profession, name won't matter.

But is the 200-300k debt versus 0-100k debt to end up in the same place worth it??? I dunno, man. I've seen the faces and lives of those slaving to pay off law school debt. Hooked on alcho and drug users but hey, they got BIGLAW, right?

Lots to consider before seat deposits are made.

[blackbirdfly]

Out of curiosity, is anyone ITT t-14 or bust?

T-6 or bust, sadly.

[AAJD2B]

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

I dunno about #3 hun. Ivy label can matter for work politics. Folks are so quick to judge in corporate offices and law firms are no exception. This especially holds true for URMs. Yes, they are still quick to judge us on skin color. I have not only seen it but experienced it by hiring partners and associates.

Oh, yes! TOUCHE. I'm definitely the ONLY person of color in my office and the only way I managed to land this job was by having a strong UG to back up my resume.

I think we all value schools for different reasons. For me, Ivy doesn't make much of a different, but I think for you it does. So, embrace that. I know have some really ridiculous reasons for liking or disliking some schools, and try as they might, none of my friends are gonna convince me to change my mind. I think we all just have to listen to our own gut feelings when choosing schools, etc.

tl;dr - Do you, girl!

Girl, Ivy law degree + $0 debt is where it's at for me. The only exception is Yale.

[EvMont]

3. I think the Ivy label only comes into play when people actually have little idea of actual quality of the particular school or program. So, even if an Ivy becomes a terrible school, it'll always be an Ivy and people who don't know otherwise will always assume its best of the best.

I dunno about #3 hun. Ivy label can matter for work politics. Folks are so quick to judge in corporate offices and law firms are no exception. This especially holds true for URMs. Yes, they are still quick to judge us on skin color. I have not only seen it but experienced it by hiring partners and associates.

Oh, yes! TOUCHE. I'm definitely the ONLY person of color in my office and the only way I managed to land this job was by having a strong UG to back up my resume.

I think we all value schools for different reasons. For me, Ivy doesn't make much of a different, but I think for you it does. So, embrace that. I know have some really ridiculous reasons for liking or disliking some schools, and try as they might, none of my friends are gonna convince me to change my mind. I think we all just have to listen to our own gut feelings when choosing schools, etc.

tl;dr - Do you, girl!

Girl, Ivy law degree + $0 debt is where it's at for me. The only exception is Yale.

Good to know. Now I can start getting my gifs ready.

[Percival Jenkins]

But is the 200-300k debt versus 0-100k debt to end up in the same place worth it??? I dunno, man. I've seen the faces and lives of those slaving to pay off law school debt. Hooked on alcho and drug users but hey, they got BIGLAW, right?

Lots to consider before seat deposits are made.

And that's why I agreed with EV about $$ being pretty much the only real game changer. The debt is real. But when we all have to make that decision in May, when we look at a lower ranked school at 100k or a T6 closer to 200k, we will have no way of knowing if we can end up at the same place from both schools. But that's why our pending decisions are going to be stressful.

[EvMont]

Out of curiosity, is anyone ITT t-14 or bust?

I think quite few people are. I know I am.

[californiauser]

Out of curiosity, is anyone ITT t-14 or bust?

yep, from a large city and only want to work in a large city -- pretty much makes t14 the only option to justify leaving my current job

however, would only pay sticker for HYSC

[Dr.Zer0]

Hey all! Been lurking for a few weeks and finally checking in. So much inspiration in this thread! I applied very late in the cycle (early January) so I'm wayyyy behind all of you in terms of hearing back from schools. Nevertheless my hope remains high!

Welcome! I know how being on the late train feels, I applied mid January

[AAJD2B]

But is the 200-300k debt versus 0-100k debt to end up in the same place worth it??? I dunno, man. I've seen the faces and lives of those slaving to pay off law school debt. Hooked on alcho and drug users but hey, they got BIGLAW, right?

Lots to consider before seat deposits are made.

And that's why I agreed with EV about $$ being pretty much the only real game changer. The debt is real. But when we all have to make that decision in May, when we look at a lower ranked school at 100k or a T6 closer to 200k, we will have no way of knowing if we can end up at the same place from both schools. But that's why our pending decisions are going to be stressful.

T14 is the cutoff for most here. Majority of opportunities for BIGLAW come from this cutoff. At the beginning of this cycle I was all about T5 or bust. Now that I hear from associates who went to lower T14s with little debt load and the same Cravath, Sullivan & Cromwell, Simpson Thacher, Davis Polk gigs that are holy grails, my opinions are now skewed.

[ChuggaChuggaChooChoo]

For those of you with jobs...once you get into your dream school with a full ride, do you have an exit plan laid out?

This is definitely something I'm currently struggling with

[Percival Jenkins]

But is the 200-300k debt versus 0-100k debt to end up in the same place worth it??? I dunno, man. I've seen the faces and lives of those slaving to pay off law school debt. Hooked on alcho and drug users but hey, they got BIGLAW, right?

Lots to consider before seat deposits are made.

And that's why I agreed with EV about $$ being pretty much the only real game changer. The debt is real. But when we all have to make that decision in May, when we look at a lower ranked school at 100k or a T6 closer to 200k, we will have no way of knowing if we can end up at the same place from both schools. But that's why our pending decisions are going to be stressful.

T14 is the cutoff for most here. Majority of opportunities for BIGLAW come from this cutoff. At the beginning of this cycle I was all about T5 or bust. Now that I hear from associates who went to lower T14s with little debt load and the same Cravath, Sullivan & Cromwell, Simpson Thacher, Davis Polk gigs that are holy grails, my opinions are now skewed.

Well I came into the process with no favorites for that exact reason. I knew a balance between the money and the job prospects would decide for me.

[mac2013]

I would say I am t14 or bust. But a full ride at my home school (T20-30), which is in the market I want to practice in, would be tempting. I would probably only pay sticker for HYS.

[californiauser]

For those of you with jobs...once you get into your dream school with a full ride, do you have an exit plan laid out?

This is definitely something I'm currently struggling with

like how to tell your employer you're leaving?