AA male URM 151(cannot retake) Forum

[JayJones78]

Just deposited at W&L. This is getting real.

Since I got rejected from Vandy two days ago, at this point the only thing that will make me loose these $750 is a Cornell hail marry that I really doubt will happen.

I am wondering what people thing about what shoul I do in the event that GW takes me off the WL.

[Dmini7]

Just deposited at W&L. This is getting real.

Since I got rejected from Vandy two days ago, at this point the only thing that will make me loose these $750 is a Cornell hail marry that I really doubt will happen.

I am wondering what people thing about what shoul I do in the event that GW takes me off the WL.

If you can afford it, or are already in the area of GW I would personally visit. Unless you absolutely love it, I probably wouldn't worry too much about getting in on the waitlists. GW can get your foot in the door of the D.C. market though(which if i recall correctly you were interested in along with NY market). Honestly though, it would cost a lot more to attend GW, so unless you were in love with the area, the people, the school, and etc, I would not go. Both are good options so you really can't go wrong. I would NOT attend for the purpose of being able to say you go to a T20 though. If that is the only reason you could think of, that means you shouldnt go. (I am not saying you would think that way, but I am just making sure that is clear for anyone looking at this and reading).

[sparty99]

If you are waitlisted, you need to visit the school in a suit and tie and ask to speak with admissions.

[JayJones78]

Just deposited at W&L. This is getting real.

Since I got rejected from Vandy two days ago, at this point the only thing that will make me loose these $750 is a Cornell hail marry that I really doubt will happen.

I am wondering what people thing about what shoul I do in the event that GW takes me off the WL.

If you can afford it, or are already in the area of GW I would personally visit. Unless you absolutely love it, I probably wouldn't worry too much about getting in on the waitlists. GW can get your foot in the door of the D.C. market though(which if i recall correctly you were interested in along with NY market). Honestly though, it would cost a lot more to attend GW, so unless you were in love with the area, the people, the school, and etc, I would not go. Both are good options so you really can't go wrong. I would NOT attend for the purpose of being able to say you go to a T20 though. If that is the only reason you could think of, that means you shouldnt go. (I am not saying you would think that way, but I am just making sure that is clear for anyone looking at this and reading).

I am currently overseas so I wont be ablt to get there any time soon. The COL is a big issue for me. In addition I am unsure to how much GW is in a better position to help me get DC or NYC. I think in both schools I'll have to be top 20% (maybe top 30% at GW?) to get DC or NYC so I'm unsure at the leg up I'll get at GW

[WokeUpInACar]

Just deposited at W&L. This is getting real.

Since I got rejected from Vandy two days ago, at this point the only thing that will make me loose these $750 is a Cornell hail marry that I really doubt will happen.

I am wondering what people thing about what shoul I do in the event that GW takes me off the WL.

If you can afford it, or are already in the area of GW I would personally visit. Unless you absolutely love it, I probably wouldn't worry too much about getting in on the waitlists. GW can get your foot in the door of the D.C. market though(which if i recall correctly you were interested in along with NY market). Honestly though, it would cost a lot more to attend GW, so unless you were in love with the area, the people, the school, and etc, I would not go. Both are good options so you really can't go wrong. I would NOT attend for the purpose of being able to say you go to a T20 though. If that is the only reason you could think of, that means you shouldnt go. (I am not saying you would think that way, but I am just making sure that is clear for anyone looking at this and reading).

I am currently overseas so I wont be ablt to get there any time soon. The COL is a big issue for me. In addition I am unsure to how much GW is in a better position to help me get DC or NYC. I think in both schools I'll have to be top 20% (maybe top 30% at GW?) to get DC or NYC so I'm unsure at the leg up I'll get at GW

I think you should take GW over W&L in a second if you get off the WL honestly. You're not getting much of a discount at W&L and GW has FAR better placement (even if you account for the enormous # of school funded jobs). Their biglaw+clerkship # is more than double W&L's. I think both options are too expensive but I know you're not turning back now

[JayJones78]

Just deposited at W&L. This is getting real.

Since I got rejected from Vandy two days ago, at this point the only thing that will make me loose these $750 is a Cornell hail marry that I really doubt will happen.

I am wondering what people thing about what shoul I do in the event that GW takes me off the WL.

If you can afford it, or are already in the area of GW I would personally visit. Unless you absolutely love it, I probably wouldn't worry too much about getting in on the waitlists. GW can get your foot in the door of the D.C. market though(which if i recall correctly you were interested in along with NY market). Honestly though, it would cost a lot more to attend GW, so unless you were in love with the area, the people, the school, and etc, I would not go. Both are good options so you really can't go wrong. I would NOT attend for the purpose of being able to say you go to a T20 though. If that is the only reason you could think of, that means you shouldnt go. (I am not saying you would think that way, but I am just making sure that is clear for anyone looking at this and reading).

I am currently overseas so I wont be ablt to get there any time soon. The COL is a big issue for me. In addition I am unsure to how much GW is in a better position to help me get DC or NYC. I think in both schools I'll have to be top 20% (maybe top 30% at GW?) to get DC or NYC so I'm unsure at the leg up I'll get at GW

I think you should take GW over W&L in a second if you get off the WL honestly. You're not getting much of a discount at W&L and GW has FAR better placement (even if you account for the enormous # of school funded jobs). Their biglaw+clerkship # is more than double W&L's. I think both options are too expensive but I know you're not turning back now

I think that I'll have to be at the top of my class at both schools to get biglaw, which is what I am aiming for and I think my inital thought of top 20% at W&L and (maybe) top 30% at GW still stands. I think I wrote before that I honestly don't look at employment stats as the big indicator because for biglaw you just have to be in those brakets if you want to get your foot in the door. I actually sat next to a hiring attorney (and a chicago grad in his late 30s) on a plane last week and we had a long conv about this and he said that I am spot on. For schools 20-30 thats where you need to be and if you're there (and know how to sell yourself, network and everything that is not grades related) you will get biglaw. It's interesting but out of all my options he thought that I should actually go to W&L because of their alum connections. He said it's almost unparallel to most schools.

I am not trying to hype myself up for W&L as I would say the same for any school 20-30 (maybe 18-30?), I just talked to people outside the TLS sphere and realized that the view from the outside, espcially by people who are actully practicing and hiring, is somewhat different.

[WokeUpInACar]

I am currently overseas so I wont be ablt to get there any time soon. The COL is a big issue for me. In addition I am unsure to how much GW is in a better position to help me get DC or NYC. I think in both schools I'll have to be top 20% (maybe top 30% at GW?) to get DC or NYC so I'm unsure at the leg up I'll get at GW

I think you should take GW over W&L in a second if you get off the WL honestly. You're not getting much of a discount at W&L and GW has FAR better placement (even if you account for the enormous # of school funded jobs). Their biglaw+clerkship # is more than double W&L's. I think both options are too expensive but I know you're not turning back now

I think that I'll have to be at the top of my class at both schools to get biglaw, which is what I am aiming for and I think my inital thought of top 20% at W&L and (maybe) top 30% at GW still stands. I think I wrote before that I honestly don't look at employment stats as the big indicator because for biglaw you just have to be in those brakets if you want to get your foot in the door. I actually sat next to a hiring attorney (and a chicago grad in his late 30s) on a plane last week and we had a long conv about this and he said that I am spot on. For schools 20-30 thats where you need to be and if you're there (and know how to sell yourself, network and everything that is not grades related) you will get biglaw. It's interesting but out of all my options he thought that I should actually go to W&L because of their alum connections. He said it's almost unparallel to most schools.

I am not trying to hype myself up for W&L as I would say the same for any school 20-30 (maybe 18-30?), I just talked to people outside the TLS sphere and realized that the view from the outside, espcially by people who are actully practicing and hiring, is somewhat different.

You are right that employment stats are not completely predictive of where any one person needs to be in the class to land biglaw, contrary to what many TLSers seem to believe. HOWEVER, the perceptions and perspective of any one hiring partner is going to give you much, much less insight into the employment opportunities you will actually have at a school than the hard data that is available to us.

The cold, hard data shows that 31% of GW's class gets biglaw or a clerkship, while W&L only places 15% of its graduates in those positions. This doesn't mean that it's not possible to get biglaw from top 25% at W&L, or that you're guaranteed it from top 25% at GW, but whatever the "brackets" are for someone at W&L, they are PRETTY MUCH going to be twice that at GW (for biglaw/clerkship).

Even using your 20% and 30% bracket numbers (which probably aren't too far off honestly), GW would be a much better decision. That's a 50% better chance at your desired outcome and GW wouldn't cost anywhere near 50% more than W&L.

[JayJones78]

I am currently overseas so I wont be ablt to get there any time soon. The COL is a big issue for me. In addition I am unsure to how much GW is in a better position to help me get DC or NYC. I think in both schools I'll have to be top 20% (maybe top 30% at GW?) to get DC or NYC so I'm unsure at the leg up I'll get at GW

I think you should take GW over W&L in a second if you get off the WL honestly. You're not getting much of a discount at W&L and GW has FAR better placement (even if you account for the enormous # of school funded jobs). Their biglaw+clerkship # is more than double W&L's. I think both options are too expensive but I know you're not turning back now

I think that I'll have to be at the top of my class at both schools to get biglaw, which is what I am aiming for and I think my inital thought of top 20% at W&L and (maybe) top 30% at GW still stands. I think I wrote before that I honestly don't look at employment stats as the big indicator because for biglaw you just have to be in those brakets if you want to get your foot in the door. I actually sat next to a hiring attorney (and a chicago grad in his late 30s) on a plane last week and we had a long conv about this and he said that I am spot on. For schools 20-30 thats where you need to be and if you're there (and know how to sell yourself, network and everything that is not grades related) you will get biglaw. It's interesting but out of all my options he thought that I should actually go to W&L because of their alum connections. He said it's almost unparallel to most schools.

I am not trying to hype myself up for W&L as I would say the same for any school 20-30 (maybe 18-30?), I just talked to people outside the TLS sphere and realized that the view from the outside, espcially by people who are actully practicing and hiring, is somewhat different.

You are right that employment stats are not completely predictive of where any one person needs to be in the class to land biglaw, contrary to what many TLSers seem to believe. HOWEVER, the perceptions and perspective of any one hiring partner is going to give you much, much less insight into the employment opportunities you will actually have at a school than the hard data that is available to us.

The cold, hard data shows that 31% of GW's class gets biglaw or a clerkship, while W&L only places 15% of its graduates in those positions. This doesn't mean that it's not possible to get biglaw from top 25% at W&L, or that you're guaranteed it from top 25% at GW, but whatever the "brackets" are for someone at W&L, they are PRETTY MUCH going to be twice that at GW (for biglaw/clerkship).

Even using your 20% and 30% bracket numbers (which probably aren't too far off honestly), GW would be a much better decision. That's a 50% better chance at your desired outcome and GW wouldn't cost anywhere near 50% more than W&L.

Not saying you're not right about the possible outcomes. At this point, W&L is the best option I have. I'm also unsure if I'll get off the WL at GW. Regardless it was the right decision at this point (IMHO) to deposit there. I'll revisit everything if they take me off the WL (which I'm unsure if they will or won't).

[sparty99]

What is W&L ? Washington and Lee vs. George Washington? Go to the school w/ the most money. If you aren't top 30%, it won't matter. If you are Top 30%, you mass mail every firm in the east coast and go to all the diversity career fairs.

But you should also be careful with your gunning for Big Law. I mean, I see why you want it, but if you don't get it, you don't want to be dissapointed.

[spleenworship]

Even taking out the 20% school funded from GW they have a 10% greater rate at placing grads in JD req. full time jobs. I'd take them over W&L in a heartbeat if I was you. It isn't like you are giving up even a half ride scholly...

YMMV

[JayJones78]

Even taking out the 20% school funded from GW they have a 10% greater rate at placing grads in JD req. full time jobs. I'd take them over W&L in a heartbeat if I was you. It isn't like you are giving up even a half ride scholly...

YMMV

I'll revisit this if they offer me a seat off the WL. At this point I have nothing from them

[danitt]

Even taking out the 20% school funded from GW they have a 10% greater rate at placing grads in JD req. full time jobs. I'd take them over W&L in a heartbeat if I was you. It isn't like you are giving up even a half ride scholly...

YMMV

But dat DC COL.

[tehkris]

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

+1

[BigZuck]

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

+1

What is this I don't even

All those schools are terrible, and why would you feel confident that you could finish in the top 10% of anything given your LSAT is the national average and your gpa is only somewhat above average?

Leave this thread troll

[DoveBodyWash]

...plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! .

This isn't true. They take the highest score regardless of how many times you took it. They stopped averaging scores once the U.S News let them submit their highest score for their ranking.

[tehkris]

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

+1

What is this I don't even

All those schools are terrible, and why would you feel confident that you could finish in the top 10% of anything given your LSAT is the national average and your gpa is only somewhat above average?

Leave this thread troll

I rescind quoting that comment. I was frustrated, as a black URM myself I was advocating getting in through the back door to any law school and performing once there. The more I read of schools the more I am realizing that big law is out of the question for TTTT schools and how important a strong LSAT truly is. This thread is informative and very pertinent to someone like me. Bigzuck accept my apologies and to OP, make it happen.

[sparty99]

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

+1

Ugh...who wrote this? All those schools are garbage. I had a lower LSAT and got a full-ride at a T50. You need to apply to some better schools bro.

[005618502]

Looking for some advice,

older (in my 30s) AA male URM
took the LSAT 3 times: 148,143,151 (Dec,June,Oct) and I am not allowed to take it again until dec '13 (tried to appeal, was denied). My LSAC gpa is 3.4

At this point, I really do not want to wait another year, mainly because I am really unsure of how better my score will get the 4th time around. I invested incredible time and effort in studying for oct and the 151 was a huge blow. For me to wait a another full year is just too much. I know the general rule on TLS is retake retake retake, but in my case I don't think it'll do a lot of good.

I did a lot of research on LSN and although the future is not bright, I saw some rays of hope there. It appears that Tulane, UNC, Cardozo and U of Min can be worked in, and I even saw some WL admit and admits to Vandy, W&L and a few other T30 schools.

My story is pretty unique (and too long to get into here) I have very good letters of rec and I know I can build a good application. What I'm wondering is will that be a consideration with the 151? I know a 151 URM doesn't equal a 151 non-URM, but I wanted to hear thoughts from people here or even (if there are any) people with similar numbers and GPAs and how it turned out for them. I know apps are down all around, but still.

thank you.

EDIT: I'll add that I have an LSAC fee waiver, so I am fine applying all over since the investment on my part is much smaller.

Dude, weird. I know an AA male, not in their 30s but his name is Jay Jones... just thought I would through that crazy fact out there. (it does not appear you are him based on your posts even besides the age).

About your situation, to be totally honest, I dont know that any school you could get into would be worth it at all. Where are you hoping to end up?

[005618502]

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

+1

Ugh...who wrote this? All those schools are garbage. I had a lower LSAT and got a full-ride at a T50. You need to apply to some better schools bro.

But did you have a 3.4 GPA?

[sparty99]

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

+1

Ugh...who wrote this? All those schools are garbage. I had a lower LSAT and got a full-ride at a T50. You need to apply to some better schools bro.

But did you have a 3.4 GPA?

No. I had the same gpa as the person who said they applied to all those weak schools. A 3.6/151 should get you into a T55.

[wannabelawstudent]

Tag for my bro.

[JayJones78]

Tag for my bro.

Thanks
sorry for the lack of posting on my own thread but I'm overseas and less spend time on TLS.

for those who rehashed the going to TTTs for free or getting through the back door etc. I dont share this argument and I think we talked about it in lenghth at the beginning of the thread. I dont see a reason to talk about it again (at least on my behalf) since it is and always was out of the question for me.

I also think that although my cycle didn't go perfectly I did see more success than I initially thought I'd see given my problametic #s going in (even in regards to my GPA which is fair but not incredible). All in all I am happy so far.

As of now, I'll be attending W&L. The only complete turn would be a Cornell acceptence. If GW takes me off the WL I'll revisit the argument if it's worth going at sticket (which I'll assume is the 'offer' I'll get) combined with DC COL. But right now I think it's still long ways from being on the table. I see value in GW, I just need to really take a closer look and see how it's compared with W&L if and when (please put all TLS disclaimers here) I finish at the top 20% in each school when the premise is NYC/DC big law.

[Xs20]

Jay - hypothetically speaking, what are you planning on doing if you aren't able to get biglaw (which is 9x more likely), and you end up $200k in the hole without a job, or in a job with a salary that doesn't allow you to service that kind of debt efficiently?

I know you say you don't think the employment numbers matter, but given that W&L's numbers are weighted so heavily against getting into biglaw, have you seriously entertained this scenario as the most probable one?

[JayJones78]

Jay - hypothetically speaking, what are you planning on doing if you aren't able to get biglaw (which is 9x more likely), and you end up $200k in the hole without a job, or in a job with a salary that doesn't allow you to service that kind of debt efficiently?

I know you say you don't think the employment numbers matter, but given that W&L's numbers are weighted so heavily against getting into biglaw, have you seriously entertained this scenario as the most probable one?

I have and luckily I'm in a situation where I will be okay. Nevertheless I have faith in what I bring into the table, in diversity hiring and my own abilities to preform.

EDIT: regardless of that, I will be gunning very very hard for biglaw in every possible avenue ( i.e I am going in thinking that the fact that I'll be okay if I don't get it does not even exist. Fact to that is that I am still taking on all the loans and everything needed to finance LS)

[PDaddy]

Apply to the following:

Vanderbilt
George Washington
College of William & Mary
American
Howard
Tulane*
Minnesota*
UNC*

*Keep in mind that attending these schools may limit you to only practicing law within the school's region.

Not necessarily the case with Tulane and Howard. They place students in a variety of markets, especially Howard...at least that was the trend. Maybe things are different now.