Does this Study Prove that Law Firm Partners are Racist? Forum

[Phil Brooks]

Are you talking about if a partner has a minority spouse or if a white associate has a minority spouse?

If a white associate has a minority spouse.

[fliptrip]

Although I am a Black studies major, having studied systematic and institutional racism for years, and I work in advocacy for Blacks nearly everyday, it is still, for some reason, surprising and definitely discouraging to read things like this (both the article, and your interpretations).

I always go back and forth about what my impact can be as an African American woman entering this homogenous community and wonder if entering the legal field that perhaps will not genuinely respect me really is the best use of my talents and intellectual capabilities. Being considered second-rate despite my early achievements. Going to a T-14 and doing well means... what? Narrowly being considered for positions yet still under-qualified? Ugh.

You cannot let this situation dissuade you from pursuing the law. If you're drawn to law and you've gotten into law school, you have a talent for the profession that you should pursue. Being some biglaw associate/partner is not the only way to make a career in the law. Government is a very friendly place for minorities, so much so that biglaw firms have a bit of risk in that their regulatory practices are so non-diverse, yet have to work with government agencies that are very diverse. Use biglaw for what it can get you...learn everything you possibly can and make as many connections as you can. They'll do you when they decide to do you. Don't worry about that, worry about maximizing every chance you get until that day. Don't let a single person in that firm have a single substantive negative thing to say about you (never be late, never miss a deadline, don't make out with the 5th year who is supervising you on a case, keep your personal business out of work conversations) so that when that dark day does come, you can walk out, head held high and be well on your way to your next step. That next step might be in-house in corporate where you can make a career and have a clear sense of advancement, maybe you decide to go into government practice, maybe you decide to strike out on your own, or maybe you decide to get into something else altogether. Either way, you need to believe in your future success and stay focused.

Turn this situation on its head...make it work for you. Don't be like your non-URM colleagues who are crying because they hate their jobs so damn much because they had to cancel their vacation. Accommodate yourself now to the fact you're going to hate it and that you have another purpose in enduring it. To me, having that perspective is a huge advantage.

[fliptrip]

Cross burning, white hood wearing, kill the n*ggers racists? No, probably not. A fair number of these folks are probably liberal democrats who volunteer and do all kinds of stuff to indicate they don't have a conscious bias towards black folks.

But, absolutely they are subject to the kind of entrenched subconscious biases any person in a racialized society that distributes power based on those racial distinctions is bound to inculcate.

This sort of thing is an argument for why black folks entering these hyper competitive environments might want to seriously consider over-credentialing. We are not fighting on a level playing field.

What do you mean by this? Going into more debt to get more degrees/attend a more "prestigious" school? Regardless, it won't matter. These biases are subconscious and no matter how many degrees/accolades a minority achieves, his/her skills will always be doubted in part because of skin color.

Black will always be black. Degrees, prestige, or money will never change that.

Does this unconscious racial bias infect spouses too? In other words, if a white associate has a black spouse, will the partners notice this and unconsciously discriminate against the associate?

This is all very sad. I hope it changes when our generation becomes the employers/partners.

Sorry for not understanding earlier. No, and I had to chuckle a little bit upon reading it. Having a black spouse should in no way cause any of the pernicious unconscious beliefs about black people's intelligence to attach to you. As we all pretty much agree, I don't think many partners in law firms are just straight bigots, so I think you're okay. Those biases will attach to your spouse though. Don't expect that just because she married you, she graduated out of this mess us URMs find ourselves in.

[BruceWayne]

Two things.

1) I can't believe it took this long for someone to post something about these findings; this is great.

2) Fliptrip is sharing some real knowledge on here lol.

[Gtr411]

Circle jerk

[jnwa]

Flip's preaching!! Just realized the link to the study on the page is broken so ill repost

http://www.nextions.com/wp-content/file ... iteYPS.pdf

I expected some of this stuff in biglaw but the magnitude is shocking.

2.9/7.0 spelling grammar errors were found in
“Caucasian” Thomas Meyer’s memo in comparison to 5.8/7.0
spelling/grammar errors found in “African American” Thomas Meyer’s
memo

Finding double the errors in the African American's work, i mean at that point your brain is hardwired to not only expect mistakes from AA's but to overlook them in white people.

[fliptrip]

^^LOL...one tends to find what one seeks.

[whitleygilbertwayne]

Although I am a Black studies major, having studied systematic and institutional racism for years, and I work in advocacy for Blacks nearly everyday, it is still, for some reason, surprising and definitely discouraging to read things like this (both the article, and your interpretations).

I always go back and forth about what my impact can be as an African American woman entering this homogenous community and wonder if entering the legal field that perhaps will not genuinely respect me really is the best use of my talents and intellectual capabilities. Being considered second-rate despite my early achievements. Going to a T-14 and doing well means... what? Narrowly being considered for positions yet still under-qualified? Ugh.

You cannot let this situation dissuade you from pursuing the law. If you're drawn to law and you've gotten into law school, you have a talent for the profession that you should pursue. Being some biglaw associate/partner is not the only way to make a career in the law. Government is a very friendly place for minorities, so much so that biglaw firms have a bit of risk in that their regulatory practices are so non-diverse, yet have to work with government agencies that are very diverse. Use biglaw for what it can get you...learn everything you possibly can and make as many connections as you can. They'll do you when they decide to do you. Don't worry about that, worry about maximizing every chance you get until that day. Don't let a single person in that firm have a single substantive negative thing to say about you (never be late, never miss a deadline, don't make out with the 5th year who is supervising you on a case, keep your personal business out of work conversations) so that when that dark day does come, you can walk out, head held high and be well on your way to your next step. That next step might be in-house in corporate where you can make a career and have a clear sense of advancement, maybe you decide to go into government practice, maybe you decide to strike out on your own, or maybe you decide to get into something else altogether. Either way, you need to believe in your future success and stay focused.

Turn this situation on its head...make it work for you. Don't be like your non-URM colleagues who are crying because they hate their jobs so damn much because they had to cancel their vacation. Accommodate yourself now to the fact you're going to hate it and that you have another purpose in enduring it. To me, having that perspective is a huge advantage.

I appreciate the well thought out and encouraging response. Its this kind of camaraderie we have to build in order to support each other and increase our abilities to handle the complexities of being Black in law (or URMs in law). I'll definitely be working my ass off to make sure that there isn't a question about my competency based on my work and/or work ethic. Those of us who make it will pave the way for more Blacks to make it to these positions and pull each other up despite the inherent barriers.

[Flokkness]

You cannot let this situation dissuade you from pursuing the law. If you're drawn to law and you've gotten into law school, you have a talent for the profession that you should pursue. Being some biglaw associate/partner is not the only way to make a career in the law. Government is a very friendly place for minorities, so much so that biglaw firms have a bit of risk in that their regulatory practices are so non-diverse, yet have to work with government agencies that are very diverse. Use biglaw for what it can get you...learn everything you possibly can and make as many connections as you can. They'll do you when they decide to do you. Don't worry about that, worry about maximizing every chance you get until that day. Don't let a single person in that firm have a single substantive negative thing to say about you (never be late, never miss a deadline, don't make out with the 5th year who is supervising you on a case, keep your personal business out of work conversations) so that when that dark day does come, you can walk out, head held high and be well on your way to your next step. That next step might be in-house in corporate where you can make a career and have a clear sense of advancement, maybe you decide to go into government practice, maybe you decide to strike out on your own, or maybe you decide to get into something else altogether. Either way, you need to believe in your future success and stay focused.

Turn this situation on its head...make it work for you. Don't be like your non-URM colleagues who are crying because they hate their jobs so damn much because they had to cancel their vacation. Accommodate yourself now to the fact you're going to hate it and that you have another purpose in enduring it. To me, having that perspective is a huge advantage.

In sum, we need to work harder than others to partake of a categorically lesser benefit. That sounds right.

I admit, this shit has gotten under my skin, even as a lowly 1L. These numbers are a callback to what, ordinarily, you'd assume is a bygone era, or least an era in decline. Not so. Anyway, the point is Flip's post is a good reminder to keep fighting the good fight.

Cheers to that.

[MKC]

Flip's preaching!! Just realized the link to the study on the page is broken so ill repost

http://www.nextions.com/wp-content/file ... iteYPS.pdf

I expected some of this stuff in biglaw but the magnitude is shocking.

2.9/7.0 spelling grammar errors were found in
“Caucasian” Thomas Meyer’s memo in comparison to 5.8/7.0
spelling/grammar errors found in “African American” Thomas Meyer’s
memo

Finding double the errors in the African American's work, i mean at that point your brain is hardwired to not only expect mistakes from AA's but to overlook them in white people.

^^LOL...one tends to find what one seeks.

One of the really fucked up things about the findings is that minority evaluators showed the same level of bias.

[fliptrip]

Flip's preaching!! Just realized the link to the study on the page is broken so ill repost

http://www.nextions.com/wp-content/file ... iteYPS.pdf

I expected some of this stuff in biglaw but the magnitude is shocking.

2.9/7.0 spelling grammar errors were found in
“Caucasian” Thomas Meyer’s memo in comparison to 5.8/7.0
spelling/grammar errors found in “African American” Thomas Meyer’s
memo

Finding double the errors in the African American's work, i mean at that point your brain is hardwired to not only expect mistakes from AA's but to overlook them in white people.

^^LOL...one tends to find what one seeks.

One of the really fucked up things about the findings is that minority evaluators showed the same level of bias.

We are all in The Matrix...and yes, if you read too much of this stuff it will blow your mind.

[dihlin487]

With all this conscientious discourse about racial bias within BigLaw, don't you think your intellect and observations would be better suited in other fields of law? Wouldn't application of your awareness on the systematic (perceptibly so) bias that exists, further benefit the black community through advocacy groups or PI? Just curious. By no means am I questioning your career path choice, but do you think being on the tippy-top of BigLaw would be more effective in eliminating what racial tensions may exist? I would imagine BigFed or Judicial Clerkships are less 'biased' and offer better options for social advocacy.

I'm far from T14 candidacy, so maybe my thought process is different. I am fortunate enough to be in the model-minority group, so most folks will be assuming that I come from a T14 background when I'm going to a TT school. My firm experience does tell me that white folks are outrageously ill-informed and prone to media-bias on race relations, particularly in the Midwest, but that's neither here or there.

[Lacepiece23]

The best speech I ever heard about this came from a black male Yale law graduate. He worked in biglaw for 7 years. Grinded harder than anyone while practicing M&A. He lateralled from company to company and finally made General Counsel. But it came at a price.

He said that while he was there he missed the opportunity to have a kid with the woman he loved. He was always working, even when his white counterparts were not. But most telling was that he had to work through a family union because a deal came through. Of course, he worked all weekend remotely even though his father, his hero, told him not to. This was the last time he saw his father before he died.

He ended the speech by asking us whether it was worth it to you. He broke the glass ceiling, but he told everyone that it came at a cost. He didn't say it was worth it. But he also didn't say that he wouldn't' do it again.

So I guess for those of you that want to break the glass ceiling in biglaw you have to ask whether its worth it. For some it will be. For others it won't.

[jnwa]

The best speech I ever heard about this came from a black male Yale law graduate. He worked in biglaw for 7 years. Grinded harder than anyone while practicing M&A. He lateralled from company to company and finally made General Counsel. But it came at a price.

He said that while he was there he missed the opportunity to have a kid with the woman he loved. He was always working, even when his white counterparts were not. But most telling was that he had to work through a family union because a deal came through. Of course, he worked all weekend remotely even though his father, his hero, told him not to. This was the last time he saw his father before he died.

He ended the speech by asking us whether it was worth it to you. He broke the glass ceiling, but he told everyone that it came at a cost. He didn't say it was worth it. But he also didn't say that he wouldn't' do it again.

So I guess for those of you that want to break the glass ceiling in biglaw you have to ask whether its worth it. For some it will be. For others it won't.

Well, thats depressing.

[tsujimoto74]

Flip's preaching!! Just realized the link to the study on the page is broken so ill repost

http://www.nextions.com/wp-content/file ... iteYPS.pdf

I expected some of this stuff in biglaw but the magnitude is shocking.

2.9/7.0 spelling grammar errors were found in
“Caucasian” Thomas Meyer’s memo in comparison to 5.8/7.0
spelling/grammar errors found in “African American” Thomas Meyer’s
memo

Finding double the errors in the African American's work, i mean at that point your brain is hardwired to not only expect mistakes from AA's but to overlook them in white people.

^^LOL...one tends to find what one seeks.

One of the really fucked up things about the findings is that minority evaluators showed the same level of bias.

Sad, but not surprising. Minorities are exposed to the same general culture and social mores as whites. Subtle, pervasive racism in society/media can prime anyone to be subconsciously biased.

[Loney M. Setnick]

We are all in The Matrix...and yes, if you read too much of this stuff it will blow your mind.

+100000