URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread Forum

[AnonymousApplicant]

Someone posted the link for the "quantifiable" data!

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522135 ... _boost.php

According to this, AA actually has an 8 point boost vs. a 5 point boost for PR. Makes more sense to me.

My question still stands though...

180kickflip seems to disagree with me, but I'm simply basing what I'm saying on AAs that I personally know who've gotten into T6 schools with sub-165 LSATs, though with higher GPAs than 3.4, and with the hard data that's available which says that you can practically count the number of AAs scoring at the 165+ level on one hand. Still, your low GPA might be what does you in at the end of the day, because if you had a 3.5+--and if, again, PRs are evaluated the same way as AAs--than you'd be guaranteed H with a good shot at H and S. In any case, I doubt that it matters so much when you apply this cycle. My older sibling got HYS a few years ago with a much lower GPA than yours but with a 170+ LSAT. You should at least try the same. Retake in December and if you can get, say, a 168+ you'd be on much better ground, despite your GPA.

I agree, I've even seen/read of several AA gaining admissions to Y with a 165 or similar on the URM in/out threads. I guess nothing is guaranteed, but it seems far from uncommon. And wow! Congrats to your sibling...would you mind sharing if it was low/mid/or high 170's?
Also, what kind of URM are you?

I'm an AA, and it was lower 170s. Look, you've got nothing to lose by retaking in December, so you should do that, especially considering that the advantage that goes with applying early in the cycle has been significantly diminished as a result of the decline in applications, particularly those from top scorers. Aim for 168+, though the higher the better. Even if your GPA is kind of low, it isn't THAT low -- a 3.4 is still pretty solid. Frankly, I think that even with your score now you can get into NYU at least, but still, with an even higher LSAT score you should do quite well. Much of this depends on how PRs are evaluated, but even if they aren't evaluated as AAs are, you'll still have a URM boost to add to your strong LSAT score. You might have answered this already, but are you K-JD or do you have some work experience/graduate coursework under your belt?

[kevgogators]

I'm an AA, and it was lower 170s. Look, you've got nothing to lose by retaking in December, so you should do that, especially considering that the advantage that goes with applying early in the cycle has been significantly diminished as a result of the decline in applications, particularly those from top scorers. Aim for 168+, though the higher the better. Even if your GPA is kind of low, it isn't THAT low -- a 3.4 is still pretty solid. Frankly, I think that even with your score now you can get into NYU at least, but still, with an even higher LSAT score you should do quite well. Much of this depends on how PRs are evaluated, but even if they aren't evaluated as AAs are, you'll still have a URM boost to add to your strong LSAT score. You might have answered this already, but are you K-JD or do you have some work experience/graduate coursework under your belt?

The more I think about it, the more I agree. It's not as if my score was a fluke either...I've consistently PT'd higher. With some more studying I think I can hit 170 on test day, but a 168 would still be a much better position to be in. Crazy how it can come down to a couple extra correct answers.

And I do have work experience. I worked a full-time gig during my first few years of UG. Currently working a different, part-time office job. I was supposed to graduate already but purposefully delayed, so I'll be walking at end-of-term. I guess that's kind of a non-traditional K-JD?

Thanks for taking the time to give advice, btw. Much appreciated.

[mintme]

Checking in! Taking the LSAT in December. Looking forward to riding out this cycle with y'all!

[180kickflip]

Someone posted the link for the "quantifiable" data!

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522135 ... _boost.php

According to this, AA actually has an 8 point boost vs. a 5 point boost for PR. Makes more sense to me.

My question still stands though...

180kickflip seems to disagree with me, but I'm simply basing what I'm saying on AAs that I personally know who've gotten into T6 schools with sub-165 LSATs, though with higher GPAs than 3.4, and with the hard data that's available which says that you can practically count the number of AAs scoring at the 165+ level on one hand. Still, your low GPA might be what does you in at the end of the day, because if you had a 3.5+--and if, again, PRs are evaluated the same way as AAs--than you'd be guaranteed H with a good shot at H and S. In any case, I doubt that it matters so much when you apply this cycle. My older sibling got HYS a few years ago with a much lower GPA than yours but with a 170+ LSAT. You should at least try the same. Retake in December and if you can get, say, a 168+ you'd be on much better ground, despite your GPA.

The cycle results thread from last year shows 2 165+/3.5+ AAs being rejected from H, and that is just the posters who shared stats...and just drawn from the pool on TLS. Those stats definitely put you in rare company (and I'm definitely jealous of them lol), but even for an AA, they are far from a guarantee at HYS. Add in the fact that we've got more apps in this year, and it becomes even more dicey.

To kev's last comment...
I don't remember anyone in the URM forums last year having at/below 165 LSAT and a Y acceptance. There are definitely none on lsat year's cycle results spreadsheet, and I'd say every cycle prior to that was more competitive. Who are the several you found? Most of the mid 160 AAs that get HYS acceptances have stellar GPAs (sucks for me lol). With a 3.4, 168+ is just about a requirement. I'd say a 3.4/170 PR is probably just a little better than a coin flip at H and still a hail mary at Y.

For OPs question...
If you're targeting NCG, then you're probably going to snag one or more with your current numbers. Still, if you're confident you can improve in December, I'd wait until you have your score and apply in late Dec/early Jan. A January 3.4/168 application (at/above your target school's median) will do much more for you $$$ wise than an October 3.4/166 (likely sub 25th everywhere).

[DG2016]

Good luck mintme. I'm sure that 4.0 is going to open a lot of doors, if not all of them

[AnonymousApplicant]

Someone posted the link for the "quantifiable" data!

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522135 ... _boost.php

According to this, AA actually has an 8 point boost vs. a 5 point boost for PR. Makes more sense to me.

My question still stands though...

180kickflip seems to disagree with me, but I'm simply basing what I'm saying on AAs that I personally know who've gotten into T6 schools with sub-165 LSATs, though with higher GPAs than 3.4, and with the hard data that's available which says that you can practically count the number of AAs scoring at the 165+ level on one hand. Still, your low GPA might be what does you in at the end of the day, because if you had a 3.5+--and if, again, PRs are evaluated the same way as AAs--than you'd be guaranteed H with a good shot at H and S. In any case, I doubt that it matters so much when you apply this cycle. My older sibling got HYS a few years ago with a much lower GPA than yours but with a 170+ LSAT. You should at least try the same. Retake in December and if you can get, say, a 168+ you'd be on much better ground, despite your GPA.

The cycle results thread from last year shows 2 165+/3.5+ AAs being rejected from H, and that is just the posters who shared stats...and just drawn from the pool on TLS. Those stats definitely put you in rare company (and I'm definitely jealous of them lol), but even for an AA, they are far from a guarantee at HYS. Add in the fact that we've got more apps in this year, and it becomes even more dicey.

To kev's last comment...
I don't remember anyone in the URM forums last year having at/below 165 LSAT and a Y acceptance. There are definitely none on lsat year's cycle results spreadsheet, and I'd say every cycle prior to that was more competitive. Who are the several you found? Most of the mid 160 AAs that get HYS acceptances have stellar GPAs (sucks for me lol). With a 3.4, 168+ is just about a requirement. I'd say a 3.4/170 PR is probably just a little better than a coin flip at H and still a hail mary at Y.

For OPs question...
If you're targeting NCG, then you're probably going to snag one or more with your current numbers. Still, if you're confident you can improve in December, I'd wait until you have your score and apply in late Dec/early Jan. A January 3.4/168 application (at/above your target school's median) will do much more for you $$$ wise than an October 3.4/166 (likely sub 25th everywhere).

I guess I'm too reliant on the experiences of people I know then, b/c I know quite a few AAs who've applied to HYS over the past couple of years and I've never heard of anyone getting rejected to all 3 of them when they've been above the 3.5+ 165+ threshold. Though those two examples you refer too are definitely worth looking into, they definitely appear to be outliers. I'll just add however that it is definitely possible to get into Y with a sub-165 LSAT -- like, I know this for a fact -- but you're GPA does have to be on point, as in 3.7 or 3.8+, and you have to have strong softs, which means either solid work experience and/or graduate coursework/degree from a competitive school in an academically rigorous subject.

As for the increase in apps this year, I don't think it'll make a difference given that it still seems as if high scorers are not submitting at the rate low scorers are. It turns out that people with 145s or below have actually increased since 2010 while those 165+ have declined significantly over the years. And in any case, we're talking about a minor, no more than 5 or 6 percent increase from an all-time low, which really isn't all that meaningful at all.

I don't want to come off as if I'm saying that everyone should just relax and bank on their URM status to take them where they want to go. Everyone should work hard and, in fact, try as best they can to maximize their GPA and LSATs. I'm personally not going to stop studying for and taking the LSAT until I get a 170+. But on the other hand, recognize that your URM status does -- perhaps unjustly -- confer a significant advantage, especially for AAs.

[AfrocentricAsian]

I guess I'm too reliant on the experiences of people I know then, b/c I know quite a few AAs who've applied to HYS over the past couple of years and I've never heard of anyone getting rejected to all 3 of them when they've been above the 3.5+ 165+ threshold. Though those two examples you refer too are definitely worth looking into, they definitely appear to be outliers. I'll just add however that it is definitely possible to get into Y with a sub-165 LSAT -- like, I know this for a fact -- but you're GPA does have to be on point, as in 3.7 or 3.8+, and you have to have strong softs, which means either solid work experience and/or graduate coursework/degree from a competitive school in an academically rigorous subject.

As for the increase in apps this year, I don't think it'll make a difference given that it still seems as if high scorers are not submitting at the rate low scorers are. It turns out that people with 145s or below have actually increased since 2010 while those 165+ have declined significantly over the years. And in any case, we're talking about a minor, no more than 5 or 6 percent increase from an all-time low, which really isn't all that meaningful at all.

I don't want to come off as if I'm saying that everyone should just relax and bank on their URM status to take them where they want to go. Everyone should work hard and, in fact, try as best they can to maximize their GPA and LSATs. I'm personally not going to stop studying for and taking the LSAT until I get a 170+. But on the other hand, recognize that your URM status does -- perhaps unjustly -- confer a significant advantage, especially for AAs.

hmmm.

[AnonymousApplicant]

hmmm.

I simply say that because that's what it looks like to many people, even more so when they realize how substantial the URM boost actually is. I didn't mean to imply that that was my opinion. I'm actually torn on the issue, but this isn't the place to debate the issue anyway.

[mintme]

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[ThePiedPiper]

Checking in! NA, Female, 4.0, and taking the LSAT in December. Looking forward to riding out this cycle with y'all!

Welcome to the thread mintme...Killer GPA. Flood gates are about to open

[lurker88]

Good luck mintme. I'm sure that 4.0 is going to open a lot of doors, if not all of them

Thank you! I need to buckle down and focus on studying for the LSAT. Anyone else taking it in December?

I might be.

Good luck to all of the October test takers this weekend.

[alpha kenny body]

Good luck mintme. I'm sure that 4.0 is going to open a lot of doors, if not all of them

Thank you! I need to buckle down and focus on studying for the LSAT. Anyone else taking it in December?

Are you applying to Cornell? They generally have a large amount of NA students as Ithaca is right in the middle of Iroquois/Five Nations land.

[mintme]

Post removed.

[alpha kenny body]

Good luck mintme. I'm sure that 4.0 is going to open a lot of doors, if not all of them

Thank you! I need to buckle down and focus on studying for the LSAT. Anyone else taking it in December?

Are you applying to Cornell? They generally have a large amount of NA students as Ithaca is right in the middle of Iroquois/Five Nations land.

I wasn't planning on it since I'm really not interested in living or working in New York.

Not interested in working in the largest legal market in the US? Interesting. Different strokes for different folks. I'm sure you'll end up in sunny Palo Alto with that GPA. Did you score well on the LSAT?

[mintme]

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[FairchildFLT]

Good luck mintme. I'm sure that 4.0 is going to open a lot of doors, if not all of them

Thank you! I need to buckle down and focus on studying for the LSAT. Anyone else taking it in December?

Are you applying to Cornell? They generally have a large amount of NA students as Ithaca is right in the middle of Iroquois/Five Nations land.

I wasn't planning on it since I'm really not interested in living or working in New York.

Not interested in working in the largest legal market in the US? Interesting. Different strokes for different folks. I'm sure you'll end up in sunny Palo Alto with that GPA. Did you score well on the LSAT?

Nope, I'm not. I don't feel the need to explain my reasoning. Taking the LSAT in December.

Copy that. I have no desire to live in New York either.

[Mrocky2]

Checking in! LSAT tomorrow 3rd time's a charm

[AfrocentricAsian]

Good luck everyone. May we all score 168 and above.

[Iam3hunna]

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[ThePiedPiper]

New guy here. Just took the LSAT after studying 4-5 months. Glad to finally get it done. No idea what score I got though.

Welcome to the the thread. I took the LSAT today too. Glad its over as well.

[Talarose]

Does posting here mean that it's real? This is actually happening?
Never thought the day would come.

[MarshallMarshal]

Talarose, still doesn't feel quite real to me either. After years of lurking it's finally time. Good luck!

[jlet0314]

As far as emails go from prospective law schools after submitting your information through CAS(LSAC), is anyone else receiving loads of emails from nothing but TTT? Not sure if I should be worried about this or is this normal till my LSAT score posts?

[Talarose]

Talarosa, still doesn't feel quite real to me either. After years of lurking it's finally time. Good luck!

It suddenly hit me when I saw others posting about their acceptances already. It's time!! Good luck to everyone!

[ThePiedPiper]

As far as emails go from prospective law schools after submitting your information through CAS(LSAC), is anyone else receiving loads of emails from nothing but TTT? Not sure if I should be worried about this or is this normal till my LSAT score posts?

I wouldn't worry about it. I've been through 2 other cycles. Decided to go on and get my Masters instead. But now I'm doing this all over again. It just seems to me its something they do to prospective students who dont have a score and to those who do as a recruiting tact.