A Big TLS Welcome to Belmont College of Law, 2011 Forum

[Mr. Matlock]

Well it's about time! How much longer were they going to make us wait? Thank God there's now an opportunity out there for all the Vanderbilt, U of Tennessee wannabees to now have a chance of fulfilling their dreams.

Thank you and welcome Belmont!


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[Cavalier]

May I be the first to say "BelmonTTT"

[rondemarino]

Phase 1: Start Law School
Phase 2: ABA accreditation?
Phase 3: PROFITS!

[Mr. Matlock]

Oh, and as mentioned in ATL, the fact that they're not buying into the concept of providing an affordable option by charging $25-$35,000 a year, is very refreshing. Obviously they know what they're doing.

[NeverlandRancher]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

[TTH]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

Flame

[MTal]

Haven't you guys heard? There's a crucial shortage of lawyers in our economy for which BelmonTTT will fill a critical need.

[TTTTT]

I'm becoming convinced that opening my own correspondence law school would be a MUCH better investment than actually going to law school.

[NeverlandRancher]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

Flame

Why is that? I don't think Belmont will be an elite school but I do KNOW that they have the resources and reputation to make a great school for people who want to practice in Nashville. I think it can serve the Nashville market much like Loyola serves New Orleans. Loyola has two other schools in their market (Tulane and LSU) just like Belmont will (Vandy and UTK). Only a third of Tulane's grads stay in Louisiana because of the national reputation (much like Vandy grads in Nashville) and a large portion of LSU grads stay in Baton Rouge (far more UTK grads stay in Knoxville than practice in Nashville). Looking at big firms in New Orleans, you'll notice that Loyola places very well even though there are two higher-ranked schools nearby. Belmont has just as much reputation in Nashville as Loyola in New Orleans and they are in pretty similar situations. I don't think many of you in this thread (and on ATL) know what you are talking about in regards to the Nashville legal market or the potential for Belmont in the area.

An aside: I know two people who graduated from the unranked, unaccredited Nashville School of Law ("the ymca night law school of nashville") and they're both making 6 figures in nashville about 5 years out of school. One of them turned down a quarter million job offer. Of course I'm not trying to say that this is common at all, but you all seem to act like the school you attended is far more important than what you are able to do with that degree. I am telling you (at least for the Nashville market) that this is not necessarily the case.

[Mr. Matlock]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

Flame

Why is that? I don't think Belmont will be an elite school but I do KNOW that they have the resources and reputation to make a great school for people who want to practice in Nashville. I think it can serve the Nashville market much like Loyola serves New Orleans. Loyola has two other schools in their market (Tulane and LSU) just like Belmont will (Vandy and UTK). Only a third of Tulane's grads stay in Louisiana because of the national reputation (much like Vandy grads in Nashville) and a large portion of LSU grads stay in Baton Rouge (far more UTK grads stay in Knoxville than practice in Nashville). Looking at big firms in New Orleans, you'll notice that Loyola places very well even though there are two higher-ranked schools nearby. Belmont has just as much reputation in Nashville as Loyola in New Orleans and they are in pretty similar situations. I don't think many of you in this thread (and on ATL) know what you are talking about in regards to the Nashville legal market or the potential for Belmont in the area.

An aside: I know two people who graduated from the unranked, unaccredited Nashville School of Law ("the ymca night law school of nashville") and they're both making 6 figures in nashville about 5 years out of school. One of them turned down a quarter million job offer. Of course I'm not trying to say that this is common at all, but you all seem to act like the school you attended is far more important than what you are able to do with that degree. I am telling you (at least for the Nashville market) that this is not necessarily the case.

I 100% agree. With over $130,000 in debt after graduation, the Nashville market will be able to suck these kids dry. I think it's AWESOME!!

[observationalist]

This is interesting... I like the idea of a small music-based law school but this doesn't seem like Belmont is planning anything different from what other struggling law schools offer. This is definitely not based on the job options out there... from what I know of the Nashville market, even Vanderbilt students are having to fight their way into firms if they're not in the top half of the class given how many Nashville firms stopped taking any summer associates this year. JNSL (who works part-time for an attorney in the entertainment biz right now) may have more accurate information on that. But this is for a school where the students have 168/3.72 medians coming in and an established network of alumni throughout the state, many of whom I expect would be skeptical of Belmont grads unless Belmont pulls in a highly competitive class.

Nashville School of Law, as Neverland noted, does produce some very successful attorneys. But anecdotes are not that useful in figuring out what you can expect your job prospects to be like, or in deciding whether what a school's charging is worth those prospects. If Belmont eventually climbs to the level of a tier 2 law school (which would be impressive for a new program), then you're talking maybe 5-10% of the class is looking at around six-figure job prospects. The rest are going to struggle against Vandy, UVA, Ole Miss, UNC, Tulane, and UT-Knox grads. Nashville is a small market, but I do think there's room for a very small law school program with strong connections to the music industry that could likely offer excellent career options for a small number of successful students. The problem is what Belmont plans on doing with the rest of their class... their class size was most definitely determined based on the amount of tuition they need to operate a new law school, rather than the amount of debt-payable jobs they realistically expect to find for their graduates.

I'll report on any new developments I hear about as this story unfolds, but for now I guess I'm siding with the rest of the skeptics in holding that now is the time for less law schools with smaller class sizes, not more law schools trying to place 100+ graduates in a market that could be half the size of what it was a few years ago. While Belmont may be an exception to the rule, I strongly question the amount of research they did over the last 5 years into the realities of what their graduates will be doing for work.

[TTH]

This is interesting... I like the idea of a small music-based law school but this doesn't seem like Belmont is planning anything different from what other struggling law schools offer. This is definitely not based on the job options out there... from what I know of the Nashville market, even Vanderbilt students are having to fight their way into firms if they're not in the top half of the class given how many Nashville firms stopped taking any summer associates this year.

That's depressing.

Since you're here, can you tell me anything about the OCI Vandy has for 1Ls? I read something on their website that says they do a 1L OCI mainly featuring firms from the south. Do people find that worthwhile, or did the recession make it worthless (or was it worthless to begin with)?

[orangeswarm]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

As if the rest of your post didn't raise flags.........the underlined portion sure as hell removes all doubt.

[LawandOrder]

How long until people start telling me I am a douchebag for flaming people who want to go to schools like Belmont?

[coolkatz321]

Phase 1: Start Law School
Phase 2: ABA accreditation?
Phase 3:
Phase 4: PROFIT!

Fixed. How did no one catch this epic fail in South Park logic?

[observationalist]

This is interesting... I like the idea of a small music-based law school but this doesn't seem like Belmont is planning anything different from what other struggling law schools offer. This is definitely not based on the job options out there... from what I know of the Nashville market, even Vanderbilt students are having to fight their way into firms if they're not in the top half of the class given how many Nashville firms stopped taking any summer associates this year.

That's depressing.

Since you're here, can you tell me anything about the OCI Vandy has for 1Ls? I read something on their website that says they do a 1L OCI mainly featuring firms from the south. Do people find that worthwhile, or did the recession make it worthless (or was it worthless to begin with)?

I mean in my year I did it largely to practice for 2L OCI since I wasn't' interested in most of the southern markets... not sure how many people got firm jobs out of it as 1Ls my year but it's going to be different this year. Traditionally, firms from Atlanta, Birmingham, Oxford, Memphis, Nashville etc come to recruit 1Ls, usually ones with ties to those cities (though not always).

This year, Career Services is basically offering an open-ended OCI to all employers: whenever a firm thinks they're ready to hire for the summer, they are welcome to come to Nashville and interview students. A few other schools are doing this as well, and we're hoping it will help some people who didn't land something at 2L OCI this year. JNSL has the stats on how we did for 2L OCI but it's certainly lower than my class (about 2/3s employed for 2L summer after OCI).

[rondemarino]

Phase 1: Start Law School
Phase 2: ABA accreditation?
Phase 3:
Phase 4: PROFIT!

Fixed. How did no one catch this epic fail in South Park logic?

Figured it would be more fun for people to fill in Phase 2.

[Mr. Matlock]

How long until people start telling me I am a douchebag for flaming people who want to go to schools like Belmont?

I could never call a guy with a Rosie tar a flame!!!!!

[NeverlandRancher]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

As if the rest of your post didn't raise flags.........the underlined portion sure as hell removes all doubt.

Are you from Nashville? Ever been? Maybe you misread that sentence.......I'm not saying that Ole Miss is an elite school. I'm saying that all of the rich kids in Nashville who can't get in to Vandy go to Ole Miss. If you don't believe me, drive around Belle Meade and count the Ole Miss car decals then get back to me. Until then, dont question me if you dont know what the hell youre talking about.

[Mr. Matlock]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

As if the rest of your post didn't raise flags.........the underlined portion sure as hell removes all doubt.

Are you from Nashville? Ever been? Maybe you misread that sentence.......I'm not saying that Ole Miss is an elite school. I'm saying that all of the rich kids in Nashville who can't get in to Vandy go to Ole Miss. If you don't believe me, drive around Belle Meade and count the Ole Miss car decals then get back to me. Until then, dont question me if you dont know what the hell youre talking about.

Even BETTER news for Bellmont. A bunch of rich fucktards willing to pay a butt load of dough for a shit degree. The music industry must be creaming their panties for these winners. FANFUCKINGTASTIC!!!!

[jenesaislaw]

I know it's kind of late to get in on this party, but...


a) It's a huge battle to get into the entertainment law industry from Vanderbilt. There were a few of us with jobs over this past summer and during this semester, and surely a few others could have landed them if they wanted and really tried, but not so many that a new school is justified. It's seriously almost exclusively about networking (or harassing an attorney until she gives you a job...as in my case).
b) Ole Miss is not elite an elite law school for Nashville. Come on...
c) Observationalist hit on the problem with Belmont. Even if there is some demand not filled (see a), or if Belmont grads were competitive with Vandy grads (come on...), there is NO way the market could sustain enough jobs to justify 100 new graduates per year - even in a good year. Moreover, these jobs that they'd be getting do not pay enough to justify most/any of their students to attend for anything less than a 50% scholarship (give or take). They're basically asking students to take on 125k - 150k in debt to make at most half of that. The only jobs that kind-of-justify that debt in Nashville - their targeted market - are going to be unavailable to at least 90% of the class. Maybe more. Most of this class, as he said, is filler so the school can operate.

[Mr. Matlock]

I know it's kind of late to get in on this party, but...


a) It's a huge battle to get into the entertainment law industry from Vanderbilt. There were a few of us with jobs over this past summer and during this semester, and surely a few others could have landed them if they wanted and really tried, but not so many that a new school is justified. It's seriously almost exclusively about networking (or harassing an attorney until she gives you a job...as in my case).
b) Ole Miss is not elite an elite law school for Nashville. Come on...
c) Observationalist hit on the problem with Belmont. Even if there is some demand not filled (see a), or if Belmont grads were competitive with Vandy grads (come on...), there is NO way the market could sustain enough jobs to justify 100 new graduates per year - even in a good year. Moreover, these jobs that they'd be getting do not pay enough to justify most/any of their students to attend for anything less than a 50% scholarship (give or take). They're basically asking students to take on 125k - 150k in debt to make at most half of that. The only jobs that kind-of-justify that debt in Nashville - their targeted market - are going to be unavailable to at least 90% of the class. Maybe more. Most of this class, as he said, is filler so the school can operate.

WOW! Even the French think it's going to SUCK!

[NeverlandRancher]

a) It's a huge battle to get into the entertainment law industry from Vanderbilt. There were a few of us with jobs over this past summer and during this semester, and surely a few others could have landed them if they wanted and really tried, but not so many that a new school is justified. It's seriously almost exclusively about networking (or harassing an attorney until she gives you a job...as in my case).
b) Ole Miss is not elite an elite law school for Nashville. Come on...
c) Observationalist hit on the problem with Belmont. Even if there is some demand not filled (see a), or if Belmont grads were competitive with Vandy grads (come on...), there is NO way the market could sustain enough jobs to justify 100 new graduates per year - even in a good year. Moreover, these jobs that they'd be getting do not pay enough to justify most/any of their students to attend for anything less than a 50% scholarship (give or take). They're basically asking students to take on 125k - 150k in debt to make at most half of that. The only jobs that kind-of-justify that debt in Nashville - their targeted market - are going to be unavailable to at least 90% of the class. Maybe more. Most of this class, as he said, is filler so the school can operate.

a. Belmont has the top music business and production schools in the nation (rivaled only by NYU) in one of the top cities for the field. I'm sure you're right about there not being an abundance of legal jobs in the music industry ITE, but if Belmont can create a program that capitalizes on their reputation/connections/resources in music then I would be willing to bet that they could challenge vandy grads for those jobs. of course vandy will always be the far superior law school overall, but belmont could definitely overtake vandy in entertainment law if they successfully implement the program.

b. Ole Miss is very well respected and connected in nashville. there are plenty of attorneys in nashville's top firms from ole miss and it gives you the best shot outside of t14, vandy, and tennessee. having several legal connections here with ole miss JDs makes it a very viable option for me to work in nashville out of mississippi.

c. Nashville's population has grown by more than 60% since 1990 to reach 1.6 million. Middle Tennessee is one of the fastest-growing regions in the United States and it's expected to start growing at an even faster rate. It is currently served by primarily by two law schools: Vandy (from which the majority work outside of TN) and Tennessee (from which the majority work in east tennessee). Probably not ITE, but when the economy is back on its feet Nashville can definitely support a second law school. New Orleans (similar in size to nashville) is served by four law schools (Tulane, LSU, Loyola, and Southern) and louisiana does not have 3 other decent-sized legal markets like tennessee to absorb those graduates. Its not at all uncommon/far-fetched or a city to have a prestigious law school, a state school nearby, and a smaller law school geared toward serving that city in particular. For the record, I didn't go to belmont for UG nor will i go for law school, but it is highly regarded and well funded ($$$$). It will create a successful and worthwhile law school.

[deadpanic]

NeverlanderRancher is right. I did my undergrad at Ole Miss and there are always tons of Nashville private school kids who didn't want to go to UT, couldn't get into Vandy (or didn't care to go), or just liked to party so they went to Ole Miss. Most of Ole Miss law grads will stay in MS, but there are still a good number that go to Nashville.

He is not saying it is elite or close to Vandy's level - that would be ridiculous. He is simply saying a lot of already well-to-do people attend there and then get jobs with their family connections.

[Dialogue]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

I'm not saying that Ole Miss is an elite school

He is not saying it is elite