Going to law school in NYC a huge waste of money? Forum

[laidoffjournalist]

I really, really want to go away to law school. NYC has a lot of law schools, including some lower ranked ones that would be much easier to go into. I'm crossing my fingers for Fordham (NYU and Columbia are impossible with my GPA), but would it be a complete and utter waste of my money to consider places like Cardozo, Brooklyn Law and even Hofstra? I want the experience of a big city and being on my own, but I don't want to be totally foolish about it.

I don't know how I'm doing on practice tests yet, but I am counting on 160s. If I can't score that well, I will wait another year.

[irie]

in before OS runs hourly search for the word "fordham" and posts long detailed reply

[misformafia]

In after some fool posts another meaningless reply!

...anyways. It totally depends on how badly you want NYC. Obviously going to a T2 in NYC is better than one outside of the city.

But if you're not sure on NYC (like if you want DC or Chi) then 'dozo or BLS might not be the best choice.

[OperaSoprano]

LOL, irie. Now that I'm a mod, I have to take my job seriously!

To the OP: Minefield. The TLS consensus is against T2s and T3s in crowded markets like New York. I did not apply to BLS or Hofstra, but I did consider Cardozo, since the school was so generous (and the location is hard to argue with). Unfortunately, they have a policy of yanking scholarships, or at least reducing them, if you don't stay in the top X% of your class. I regard this policy as destructive and immensely unfair, and I have a hard time respecting schools that do it. Still, you could argue that any scholarship is better than none.

If you know you want a major market, and will not pull T14 (my numbers would have made every single T14 adcomm crack up, but this is my own fault, for lack of proper LSAT prep) you should aim for the strongest regional in the city/region you are targeting. In your case, this means GW/Fordham/UIUC. I don't think it's a great idea to go any lower, unless you are attending an inexpensive state school (Maryland/GMU/Rutgers-N) or getting guaranteed $$$.

It really does depend on your career goals, though. If you are aiming for biglaw, Cardozo/BLS/Hofstra = not a wonderful idea. My own classmates know what we are up against... It's a shitshow right now. In better years, we place the top third out to top 40% in market paying firms.

Your COL will be higher in the city. Fordham's total COA, tuition plus living expenses (rent, food, etc) is over $69k/year. I'm a NYC resident, so I'm used to the rent and cost of living here. I have a roommate, so I can manage nicely on the money my school allows me to borrow, but I absolutely won't tell you it isn't expensive.

I don't know what my future holds (scary economy, imploding legal markets, etc), but so far it's been worth every cent. I would do it all again... even the part with all the waiting.

[Snooker]

Yes, in my opinion, especially if compared to a Southern law school.

From the perspective of a Texan:

A year of attendance all included is about 65-70k. In the south, it's more like 35-40k for a year.

Then when you actually go to work, your 160k salary can buy what 50k would buy in Texas. But the starting salaries are 160k in Texas, so you're several times better off.

Suppose you make partner at a top white-shoe law firm in NYC; per partner profits are 2.5 million, which can buy around what $500,000 would in Texas. But top firm per partner profits in Texas have passed 3 million.

Suppose you went to St. John's in NYC instead of Columbia or something... In that case you'd have to ask JD Underground people for their opinions.

[laidoffjournalist]

Well, I am basically limiting myself to the northeast and central north.

You've given me much to think about. Guess I'll have to see how well I'm scoring and what kind of other options I have.

[OperaSoprano]

Yes, in my opinion, especially if compared to a Southern law school.

From the perspective of a Texan:

A year of attendance all included is about 65-70k. In the south, it's more like 35-40k for a year.

Then when you actually go to work, your 160k salary can buy what 50k would buy in Texas. But the starting salaries are 160k in Texas, so you're several times better off.

Suppose you make partner at a top white-shoe law firm in NYC; per partner profits are 2.5 million, which can buy around what $500,000 would in Texas. But top firm per partner profits in Texas have passed 3 million.

Suppose you went to St. John's in NYC instead of Columbia or something... In that case you'd have to ask JD Underground people for their opinions.

Snooker: your school cost estimates assume in state tuition at a state school, or a decent scholarship, right? Vandy and Emory are not that cheap, though Nashville and Atlanta are comparatively inexpensive cities.

It's also a bit silly to compare Columbia to St John's. I mean, seriously?

The bottom line is that different people are happy in different environments. The South is a lovely place to visit, with many fine people, but I would rather make $50k here in New York. Personal happiness FTW.

To the OP: get that awesome score, and go to a T30 or T14, if you can. Don't beat yourself up for not knowing what you want. You are most assuredly not alone.

[bjf]

Congrats on becoming a mod, OS!

[Moon_Man]

Im not going to address this other than to say that Hofstra is NOT in NYC. It is in a very boring, somewhat downscale and depressing suburban area of Long Island. Not a town or a city, just tract housing for as far as the eye can see. And/but it is not cheap to live there.

[OperaSoprano]

Congrats on becoming a mod, OS!

Thank you!

Moon Man: my mom went to Hofstra before coming out to CA for med school, and I took my LSAT there. I'm not a huge fan of that part of Long Island either.

[observationalist]

Congrats on becoming a mod, OS!

Thank you!

Moon Man: my mom went to Hofstra before coming out to CA for med school, and I took my LSAT there. I'm not a huge fan of that part of Long Island either.

OS, you're a mod now??? Is there a paycheck involved or does this just mean your boosting abilities have reached a whole new level?

Either way, congrats. I finally got my laptop fixed so I will be on here more often... it's possible I may even pass the 1,000 mark by the end of 3L year. Though I'd be happier getting my post rate down to exactly 1.00 per day... after all a legal career is a marathon, not a sprint.

[lsbm3]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

[JennBNYC]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

WOW. Ever hear of "to each his own"? I love NYC and I'd rather live here than in bumblefuck any day.

[paratactical]

.

[OperaSoprano]

Congrats on becoming a mod, OS!

Thank you!

Moon Man: my mom went to Hofstra before coming out to CA for med school, and I took my LSAT there. I'm not a huge fan of that part of Long Island either.

OS, you're a mod now??? Is there a paycheck involved or does this just mean your boosting abilities have reached a whole new level?

Either way, congrats. I finally got my laptop fixed so I will be on here more often... it's possible I may even pass the 1,000 mark by the end of 3L year. Though I'd be happier getting my post rate down to exactly 1.00 per day... after all a legal career is a marathon, not a sprint.

I'm so glad we'll be seeing more of you! <3 Mods don't get paid, though. This is a labor of love.

JennBNYC: Absolutely. It's been more than four years since I moved back, and I think I'm here for good.

[HauteCAOture]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

Maybe you haventr lived in the country before if you feel 99% of NYers are uneducated lolol.

NYC is great...Expensive as hellll! But great! If you want a beach in the summer, try Long Island or NJ. The snow is gross, but thats life.

[lsbm3]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

WOW. Ever hear of "to each his own"? I love NYC and I'd rather live here than in bumblefuck any day.

Oh so sorry - I thought it was in enough that i wrote "I hate NYC" - next time i'll add, "in my opinion" to every sentence, just for you. Even though most of what i wrote is just a plain fact like dirtiness, or high cost per low quality of life.

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

Maybe you haventr lived in the country before if you feel 99% of NYers are uneducated lolol.

NYC is great...Expensive as hellll! But great! If you want a beach in the summer, try Long Island or NJ. The snow is gross, but thats life.

Yes! I agree. But only in NY you have to live in really close proximity to all the idiots. You literally cannot go somewhere where there's no morons.

[JennBNYC]

^^ Yea, I think I realized you implied YOUR opinion, but don't act like you didn't realize you were being offensive about it. You weren't just saying "I know a lot of people love it, but I'm not into the crowds, size, smells, cost of living....etc." You came off as a whiny 3-year-old who hates the world because his mom wouldn't buy him a candy bar in the grocery store checkout line. I could have equally antagonist comments about living in the middle of nowhere, but I'm not going to start spewing them because I realize some people may like those things. Say what you want about NYC because it will never change my mind, but if you want to be a lawyer you may want to learn to be a little more objective and mature.

[Blindmelon]

What're your actual numbers? Although second fiddle to Fordham, BU/BC hold their own in NYC. The COL is much lower in Boston, and the Boston schools tend to give more money. Also, BU's top three markets in order are Boston, NYC, DC with about 50% in Boston and surrounding states, 20% in NYC, 10% in DC, and 10% in LA (and 10% scattered around in Chicago, etc.). If you're looking for NYC/DC as potential cities, but wouldn't mind Boston, give BU a look.

[JennBNYC]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

I really just read through your statement closer and find it pretty laughable. Dirty swampy snow? Actually, I've hardly ever had to walk through snow in the City because most times it simply melts too quickly or is trampled away by people, unless it's a blizzard, which doesn't happen too often. Also, you can easily take public transportation to the Jersey shore, New England, or further down the coast. Unless you live in a coastal state, you have to travel to a beach regardless. Also, I spend $54/month to take the PATH from Hoboken, which I could take to get to NYU, etc. That's a much cheaper per month than paying for gas, car insurance, car upkeep/repairs. PLUS, I don't have to worry about traffic; I read on the 15 minute commute to work. And really? 99% of the people living here are uneducated assholes? Right, that's why the NYC market is the most competitive in almost every industry (finance, publishing, media, fashion, etc.). The song says "If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere" for a reason. It's hard. It's competitive. And you want to live on a farm? That's fine for you, but I'd rather not, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Next time you want to bash something, get your facts straight.

[02082010]

Yes, in my opinion, especially if compared to a Southern law school.

From the perspective of a Texan:

A year of attendance all included is about 65-70k. In the south, it's more like 35-40k for a year.

Then when you actually go to work, your 160k salary can buy what 50k would buy in Texas. But the starting salaries are 160k in Texas, so you're several times better off.

Suppose you make partner at a top white-shoe law firm in NYC; per partner profits are 2.5 million, which can buy around what $500,000 would in Texas. But top firm per partner profits in Texas have passed 3 million.

Suppose you went to St. John's in NYC instead of Columbia or something... In that case you'd have to ask JD Underground people for their opinions.

ewwwwwww... Texas trolling. I thought you guys passed that secession bill weeks ago?

[lsbm3]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

I really just read through your statement closer and find it pretty laughable. Dirty swampy snow? Actually, I've hardly ever had to walk through snow in the City because most times it simply melts too quickly or is trampled away by people, unless it's a blizzard, which doesn't happen too often. Also, you can easily take public transportation to the Jersey shore, New England, or further down the coast. Unless you live in a coastal state, you have to travel to a beach regardless. Also, I spend $54/month to take the PATH from Hoboken, which I could take to get to NYU, etc. That's a much cheaper per month than paying for gas, car insurance, car upkeep/repairs. PLUS, I don't have to worry about traffic; I read on the 15 minute commute to work. And really? 99% of the people living here are uneducated assholes? Right, that's why the NYC market is the most competitive in almost every industry (finance, publishing, media, fashion, etc.). The song says "If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere" for a reason. It's hard. It's competitive. And you want to live on a farm? That's fine for you, but I'd rather not, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Next time you want to bash something, get your facts straight.

Listen you, NYC lover from Jersey,
Firstly your costs are not costs of someone living in the city
i live here and go to school every day, spend 2+ hours on the train every day, and pay 89$ for a monthly metro card
that's the reality for most kids that LIVE AND GO TO SCHOOL HERE
and I have to plow through the sh*t snow every winter so dont tell me it MELTS! (lol perfect LSAT FLAW QUESTION: THE SNOW MELTS QUICKLY OR THERE IS A BLIZZARD! GUESS WHATS THE FLAW. genius)
so don't tell me what the damn facts are!!!


just giving someone one view of REAL NY if you can't take it don't damn read it

[JennBNYC]

If you feel like you want to trade in comfort for shitty NYC conditions for the sake of getting a feel for a big city , go for it. in NYC you pay big bucks for living in likes of a rathole. Plus you get dirty swampy snow in the winter. Summers are more bearable- if you like to roll around in water provided by the city hydrants to cool off, or the other alternative is to go to the beach; just make sure you wear combat boots or you can impale your foot on a cracked Corona bottle. You will also be spending at least $100/mo. on trainfare, 4x that amount if you like to drive everywhere. Oh, and about 99% of people living here are uneducated assholes. I hate NYC i'm applying somewhere where i can just rent a room on a farm away from this garbage dump of a city:)

I really just read through your statement closer and find it pretty laughable. Dirty swampy snow? Actually, I've hardly ever had to walk through snow in the City because most times it simply melts too quickly or is trampled away by people, unless it's a blizzard, which doesn't happen too often. Also, you can easily take public transportation to the Jersey shore, New England, or further down the coast. Unless you live in a coastal state, you have to travel to a beach regardless. Also, I spend $54/month to take the PATH from Hoboken, which I could take to get to NYU, etc. That's a much cheaper per month than paying for gas, car insurance, car upkeep/repairs. PLUS, I don't have to worry about traffic; I read on the 15 minute commute to work. And really? 99% of the people living here are uneducated assholes? Right, that's why the NYC market is the most competitive in almost every industry (finance, publishing, media, fashion, etc.). The song says "If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere" for a reason. It's hard. It's competitive. And you want to live on a farm? That's fine for you, but I'd rather not, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Next time you want to bash something, get your facts straight.

Listen you ignorant NYC lover from Jersey,
Firstly your costs are not costs of someone living in the city
i live here and go to school every day, spend 2+ hours on the train every day, and pay 89$ for a monthly metro card
that's the reality for most kids that LIVE AND GO TO SCHOOL HERE
and I have to plow through the sh*t snow every winter so dont tell me it MELTS! (are you seriously f*cking retarded I have yet to see snow that melts right away)
so don't tell me what the damn facts are!!!


just giving someone one view of REAL NY if you can't take it don't damn read it

Hey asshole. I live in Hoboken, 6 minutes outside Manhattan and 14 minutes from Midtown (closer than most people in the Boroughs). Also, I've worked full-time in Midtown for over two years, so I believe I have some experience with the area. And my costs aren't the same as someone living in Manhattan? Yes, because I'm not stupid. I don't pay an exorbitant amount to live in a tiny place. I picked a more logical option. No one forces you to live farther beyond your means than you want to. Does that mean I don't have experience with the City? No. And btw that $89 metro card is unlimited. Think you'd pay MUCH less to own a car, insure it and pay to maintain it? You spend 2 hours a day on the subway? Well, then you either live REALLY far away from your school, or you do a lot of lot of other discretionary travel. That's not relevant. If you really hate so much subway time and such high expenses then I would recommend moving to a less expensive option. However, you seem set on leaving, and I'm certainly not going to try to convince you to stay.

[JennBNYC]

Also, I'm saying the snow typically melts quickly and is not an issue, unless there is a blizzard...which is not a common occurrence.

You're just trying to twist things to make yourself sound reasonable after your little diatribe. You're going to have to try harder, my friend.

[spondee]

The snow becomes gutter slush very fast in Midtown or other high-traffic areas, but in more residential areas, say Bk Heights, it can stay on the sidewalks and ruin shoes and set old ladies slipping about much longer. Just saying.