New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Such a funny thread. First off, people need to just accept that no one in the world outside a small cadre of Internet people would rank Chicago with Harvard. It's HYS, the T14, and everything else. Everyone knows this.

Point two: I'm telling you guys, I read a ton of TLS before law school, chose money at Georgetown over CCN, and went in with a "I need to kill it because I chose the lower ranked school" mindset. Then I was surprised to see literally everyone I knew who did OCI get biglaw, including many going to the NYC and DC V10s, and multiple people who killed 1L going to like Williams & Connolly, Cravath, etc. I get this is anecdata but in practice, I can't imagine how it would have looked any different at Columbia.

Maybe they are ending up in more prestigious clerkships? But the fact is the absolute top people at GULC are getting 2/9/DC. So maybe the difference is if you want a clerkship, but aren't like a top 5%/law review/gunner candidate - I accept that person probably fares better in the clerkship race at Columbia or Harvard.

One question I have: do you think it would be harder for me to make partner at my V20 then if I had picked a higher-ranked school? Or does no one give a shit about where you went to school by the time that decision is getting made

Why do people keep putting Cravath as like a firm that indicates top of the class success. It's just a good New York firm in the line of S&C, DPW, etc... At my T14 all you needed to be was like top 1/3 or even just above median.

Because while TLS likes to dunk on it, it's probably the most prestigious firm in the United States.

Ever heard of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?

Btw I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any M&A lawyer at Wachtell that went to Georgetown for law school.

I did, it's a great M&A boutique, but I wouldn't consider it more prestigious. I wouldn't say Kellogg Hansen is better than Covington, for example

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

[Moneytrees]

Because while TLS likes to dunk on it, it's probably the most prestigious firm in the United States.

Ever heard of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?

Btw I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any M&A lawyer at Wachtell that went to Georgetown for law school.

I did, it's a great M&A boutique, but I wouldn't consider it more prestigious. I wouldn't say Kellogg Hansen is better than Covington, for example

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Yeah I would definitely take Cravath over Wachtell if I had an interest in lit, Wachtell doesn't really have a strong litigation practice. In my view, the best generalist firm is better than the best firm that specializes in one discrete area of the law (same goes for Covington v. Kellogg Hansen). All my opinion, and while Vault is flawed, it is one measure of relative prestige

Didn't I say specifically "No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell"? Please read bro.

Even for lit, no one would choose Cravath over Wachtell. For lit, those turning down Wachtell will be turning it down to choose lit boutiques like Susman. You know Wachtell's bonus is 50~100% of your base salary. Why would anyone choose Cravath over Wachtell? Just lol.

No, Vault is not a measure of prestige. Prestige gets reflected somewhat in the Vault regional rankings. The national one is bullshit, and only the regional ones correlate somewhat with prestige. I've been practicing in NY biglaw for almost 6 years so I know.

We practice in the same pond. I myself am not at Cravath or Wachtell, but Cravath elicits a big reaction from people. I've heard it referred to as "legendary" by very respected attorneys, for example. That seems to track with the Vault ranking (both national and for NY). People from either firm are doing okay in terms of compensation but even so I don't think money is decisive (a SCOTUS clerk is making less lol). So yeah, I think Wachtell is an amazing firm, don't get me wrong. Very strong in M&A and antitrust (though Cravath is too ofc). But add in litigation, the history, the rankings, and reputation? That's my view

Ok I think this is just trolling now lol

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

[Anonymous User]

Why do people keep putting Cravath as like a firm that indicates top of the class success. It's just a good New York firm in the line of S&C, DPW, etc... At my T14 all you needed to be was like top 1/3 or even just above median.

Because while TLS likes to dunk on it, it's probably the most prestigious firm in the United States.

Ever heard of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?

Btw I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any M&A lawyer at Wachtell that went to Georgetown for law school.

I did, it's a great M&A boutique, but I wouldn't consider it more prestigious. I wouldn't say Kellogg Hansen is better than Covington, for example

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

[Anonymous User]

Because while TLS likes to dunk on it, it's probably the most prestigious firm in the United States.

Ever heard of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?

Btw I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any M&A lawyer at Wachtell that went to Georgetown for law school.

I did, it's a great M&A boutique, but I wouldn't consider it more prestigious. I wouldn't say Kellogg Hansen is better than Covington, for example

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

Wachtell is undeniably a much better firm than Cravath (the comparison here honestly shouldn't even be Cravath, they have been in decline for a long time now and the firm is really no better than any other V20 nowadays) but plenty of folks actually do turn down Wachtell to go to "worse" firms.

Prestige driven law students on this board really don't understand how exponentially more painful billing 2800/yr at Wachtell is compared to 2100-2300 at some other V5 and a lot of people in biglaw really don't need the extra money.

[Anonymous User]

Ever heard of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?

Btw I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any M&A lawyer at Wachtell that went to Georgetown for law school.

I did, it's a great M&A boutique, but I wouldn't consider it more prestigious. I wouldn't say Kellogg Hansen is better than Covington, for example

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

Wachtell is undeniably a much better firm than Cravath (the comparison here honestly shouldn't even be Cravath, they have been in decline for a long time now and the firm is really no better than any other V20 nowadays) but plenty of folks actually do turn down Wachtell to go to "worse" firms.

Prestige driven law students on this board really don't understand how exponentially more painful billing 2800/yr at Wachtell is compared to 2100-2300 at some other V5 and a lot of people in biglaw really don't need the extra money.

Considering that Cravath has outranked Wachtell repeatedly over the last several years, it's quite deniable. Cravath elicits a major reaction from lawyers who are familiar with top firms, in and outside NYC. It's simply seen in a different way than the other V5 firms. Again, not knocking Wachtell, but it's like saying a screwdriver is a better tool than a Swiss Army knife. If they're both the best in their class, I'll take the Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous User]

I did, it's a great M&A boutique, but I wouldn't consider it more prestigious. I wouldn't say Kellogg Hansen is better than Covington, for example

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

Wachtell is undeniably a much better firm than Cravath (the comparison here honestly shouldn't even be Cravath, they have been in decline for a long time now and the firm is really no better than any other V20 nowadays) but plenty of folks actually do turn down Wachtell to go to "worse" firms.

Prestige driven law students on this board really don't understand how exponentially more painful billing 2800/yr at Wachtell is compared to 2100-2300 at some other V5 and a lot of people in biglaw really don't need the extra money.

Considering that Cravath has outranked Wachtell repeatedly over the last several years, it's quite deniable. Cravath elicits a major reaction from lawyers who are familiar with top firms, in and outside NYC. It's simply seen in a different way than the other V5 firms. Again, not knocking Wachtell, but it's like saying a screwdriver is a better tool than a Swiss Army knife. If they're both the best in their class, I'll take the Swiss Army knife

Maybe from boomer partners who can recall when Cravath was legitimately a cut above the rest of the NYC firms. In recent years the firm has modified its lockstep comp, lost several key partners, began hiring lateral talent, etc. and its financial metrics (e.g., PPP/RPL) are middle of the pack in the V20. There's not a single metric you can point to anymore to say Cravath is any better than any other firm in the V20.

[Anonymous User]

No student wanting to go into corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell, just as no one would choose Chicago over Harvard Law for the same price.

I don't know much about lit actually, but based on what I recall from law school days several years ago, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go into lit choosing Covington over firms like Susman, Kellogg, or even Williams & Connolly.

I just think you don't know how firms stack up. Maybe you are a law student? Back when I was in HLS, Cravath was always considered a good firm but not nearly as prestigious as the more selective firms like Wachtell or lit boutiques.

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

Wachtell is undeniably a much better firm than Cravath (the comparison here honestly shouldn't even be Cravath, they have been in decline for a long time now and the firm is really no better than any other V20 nowadays) but plenty of folks actually do turn down Wachtell to go to "worse" firms.

Prestige driven law students on this board really don't understand how exponentially more painful billing 2800/yr at Wachtell is compared to 2100-2300 at some other V5 and a lot of people in biglaw really don't need the extra money.

Considering that Cravath has outranked Wachtell repeatedly over the last several years, it's quite deniable. Cravath elicits a major reaction from lawyers who are familiar with top firms, in and outside NYC. It's simply seen in a different way than the other V5 firms. Again, not knocking Wachtell, but it's like saying a screwdriver is a better tool than a Swiss Army knife. If they're both the best in their class, I'll take the Swiss Army knife

Maybe from boomer partners who can recall when Cravath was legitimately a cut above the rest of the NYC firms. In recent years the firm has modified its lockstep comp, lost several key partners, began hiring lateral talent, etc. and its financial metrics (e.g., PPP/RPL) are middle of the pack in the V20. There's not a single metric you can point to anymore to say Cravath is any better than any other firm in the V20.

I think Vault and the Chambers guides settle it. Only one firm has the combo of strength across all major practice groups and unbeatable prestige (it's called "Cravath scale" for a reason). I'll be the first to tell you that there are a ton of great firms out there, but when it comes down to the things that matter (or should matter) to associates, it's not how much money your boss makes or laterals or anything like that.

[Anonymous User]

(it's called "Cravath scale" for a reason)

that reason is that they started it over a century ago lol, not because they remain "the best"

Not the prior poster. I agree with your point that many still put it on a pedestal, but the clock's ticking

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I just got off the phone with my dad who is a 135-year old retired litigation partner that had a brief stint working in the Eisenhower administration and he told me that Cravath is the best because of its collegiality among litigators and the fact that if you're willing to put in the work, the firm will reward you for it. He tells me it is way better than those commies over at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I just got off the phone with my dad who is a 135-year old retired litigation partner that had a brief stint working in the Eisenhower administration and he told me that Cravath is the best because of its collegiality among litigators and the fact that if you're willing to put in the work, the firm will reward you for it. He tells me it is way better than those commies over at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft.

yawn

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is nowhere near Wachtell in terms of prestige. Cravath is just another elite firm in New York along DPW, S&C, Simpson etc.

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

Wachtell is undeniably a much better firm than Cravath (the comparison here honestly shouldn't even be Cravath, they have been in decline for a long time now and the firm is really no better than any other V20 nowadays) but plenty of folks actually do turn down Wachtell to go to "worse" firms.

Prestige driven law students on this board really don't understand how exponentially more painful billing 2800/yr at Wachtell is compared to 2100-2300 at some other V5 and a lot of people in biglaw really don't need the extra money.

Considering that Cravath has outranked Wachtell repeatedly over the last several years, it's quite deniable. Cravath elicits a major reaction from lawyers who are familiar with top firms, in and outside NYC. It's simply seen in a different way than the other V5 firms. Again, not knocking Wachtell, but it's like saying a screwdriver is a better tool than a Swiss Army knife. If they're both the best in their class, I'll take the Swiss Army knife

Maybe from boomer partners who can recall when Cravath was legitimately a cut above the rest of the NYC firms. In recent years the firm has modified its lockstep comp, lost several key partners, began hiring lateral talent, etc. and its financial metrics (e.g., PPP/RPL) are middle of the pack in the V20. There's not a single metric you can point to anymore to say Cravath is any better than any other firm in the V20.

I think Vault and the Chambers guides settle it. Only one firm has the combo of strength across all major practice groups and unbeatable prestige (it's called "Cravath scale" for a reason). I'll be the first to tell you that there are a ton of great firms out there, but when it comes down to the things that matter (or should matter) to associates, it's not how much money your boss makes or laterals or anything like that.

I know this is trolling, but it's also not even true - S&C and Davis Polk are band 1 for the exact same number of practice areas as Cravath is

[Anonymous User]

Maybe this is just dumb perspective as recent grad but kinda feels like everyone in my peer group viewed Cravath, SullCrom and DPW as identical, with people choosing between them based on idiosyncratic preferences (Cravath model vs S&C generalist vs DPW rotation)

Don't know anyone who turned Wachtell down, including people going into lit. But tbf the people I know at Wachtell for lit were all big busted deal/chancery people so they fit into Wachtell's niche prax

Yeah as a current 3L, I have the exact same impression. Also, literally no one would turn down Wachtell for Cravath in any practice area out of law school. Every person I know who had a wachtell offer in lit either went there or ended up clerking and then going to a lit boutique like Kellog, Susman, or Molo. Cravath is not even on the radar for these people.

Wachtell is undeniably a much better firm than Cravath (the comparison here honestly shouldn't even be Cravath, they have been in decline for a long time now and the firm is really no better than any other V20 nowadays) but plenty of folks actually do turn down Wachtell to go to "worse" firms.

Prestige driven law students on this board really don't understand how exponentially more painful billing 2800/yr at Wachtell is compared to 2100-2300 at some other V5 and a lot of people in biglaw really don't need the extra money.

Considering that Cravath has outranked Wachtell repeatedly over the last several years, it's quite deniable. Cravath elicits a major reaction from lawyers who are familiar with top firms, in and outside NYC. It's simply seen in a different way than the other V5 firms. Again, not knocking Wachtell, but it's like saying a screwdriver is a better tool than a Swiss Army knife. If they're both the best in their class, I'll take the Swiss Army knife

Maybe from boomer partners who can recall when Cravath was legitimately a cut above the rest of the NYC firms. In recent years the firm has modified its lockstep comp, lost several key partners, began hiring lateral talent, etc. and its financial metrics (e.g., PPP/RPL) are middle of the pack in the V20. There's not a single metric you can point to anymore to say Cravath is any better than any other firm in the V20.

I think Vault and the Chambers guides settle it. Only one firm has the combo of strength across all major practice groups and unbeatable prestige (it's called "Cravath scale" for a reason). I'll be the first to tell you that there are a ton of great firms out there, but when it comes down to the things that matter (or should matter) to associates, it's not how much money your boss makes or laterals or anything like that.

I know this is trolling, but it's also not even true - S&C and Davis Polk are band 1 for the exact same number of practice areas as Cravath is

I said "combo." Those firms don't have Cravath's name recognition. You folks know it to be true. When associates, judges, newspapers, etc. are referring to the top firms, Wachtell and Cravath are always the first to come up. Cravath in particular has a legendary quality to it because of its longevity and historical importance. Reputations like that tend to be hard to get rid of.

[Anonymous User]

Really bad thread so far

FWIW, I only know one person with a Wachtell summer offer and they chose not to return because they didn't like working there, so not everyone is just slaving away to get a job there

[Anonymous User]

Is dating a thing in biglaw? How do people have time for it? Is it bad to date ppl from the firm?

[Artaserse]

This thread has gone way off topic.

[Anonymous User]

This thread has gone way off topic.

Prestige fights between firms are always on topic

[Anonymous User]

Really bad thread so far

FWIW, I only know one person with a Wachtell summer offer and they chose not to return because they didn't like working there, so not everyone is just slaving away to get a job there

Very true. I can’t tell if this thread is full of trolls, bots, or just 23 year old students with little life experience who think talented people choose firms or careers without regard to quality of life. Plenty of people turn down Wachtell because of its bad reputation for WLB. They also turn down Cravath or any other NYC top dog biglaw shop. And most of those that do accept the offer turn down the job by quitting within a few years.

[Anonymous User]

Really bad thread so far

FWIW, I only know one person with a Wachtell summer offer and they chose not to return because they didn't like working there, so not everyone is just slaving away to get a job there

Very true. I can’t tell if this thread is full of trolls, bots, or just 23 year old students with little life experience who think talented people choose firms or careers without regard to quality of life. Plenty of people turn down Wachtell because of its bad reputation for WLB. They also turn down Cravath or any other NYC top dog biglaw shop. And most of those that do accept the offer turn down the job by quitting within a few years.

[Anonymous User]

Is dating a thing in biglaw? How do people have time for it? Is it bad to date ppl from the firm?

Good question. All I can say is that it is very, very important that you make sure to date someone from Cravath and not someone from S&C and Davis Polk. You see when associates, judges, newspapers, etc. are referring to the top firms, Wachtell and Cravath are always the first to come up. Not many people know this but Vault was actually a dating website. They put Cravath as number 1, because the people there are the biggest catches.

[Anonymous User]

Is this an official leak or a prediction? What explains such a drastic CLS drop relative to every previous iteration?

Damning that the top two schools maintain no intellectual integrity whatsoever.

it's official
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... l-rankings

Yeah conservatives should all go to Notre Dame

As well as moderates and liberals who want to test their ideas against those of others.

Obviously could have changed since I was there but ND was more 50/50 conservative/liberal circa 2018. That made it “conservative” by law school standards (and made for an interesting law school experience in the Trump era”). But as a secular liberal I enjoyed having a more balanced class during my time there

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Vault is biased towards name recognition. Firms that have more national presence (eg Latham, KE, JD) get a boost. Firms that only have a few offices and/or aren't well known in other markets get shafted. This is also why above market boutiques get ranked like 80, or why eg Cahill is not even a V50 when it should be at least a V20.

To get back on topic, same laymen's bias is why ppl have a hard time accepting that Chicago is now the leader for elite outcomes.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate