NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$) Forum

[johndooley]

What do you mean by "legal consultant"? Where do you want to work? And what's your citizenship status?

If you aren't a citizen, you have very few options to get the right visa that will let you stay in the United States. My understanding is that big law firms are one of the only semi-reliable paths to those visas, and although ND gives you a better shot at those kinds of firms than IU does, it still sounds like a bad idea.

Hello @Cavalier1138, Thank you for all your candid advices. I tried to send out a few PMs but did not go through. Can you please let me know what I need to do to get them through? Thx a lot!

If it is a recurring issue it is probably on your end. I would take most posters' advice with healthy skepticism. Most do not have direct experience with the schools you are discussing or your situation with visas.

[guwailawschool]

Thanks again@Cabaloer1138! The messages stay in my outbox. Do I need to do anything more for them to go out?

[cavalier1138]

Thanks again@Cabaloer1138! The messages stay in my outbox. Do I need to do anything more for them to go out?

I'm not sure what the current filter is for PM privileges, but you may have not been a member long enough.

Also, please take everything John Dooley is saying with a massive grain of salt. He is very clearly proud of bucking the odds, but his advice is based on gut feeling, not on actual statistics or any first-hand knowledge of the visa process. The other poster in this thread is international, and they're giving you much better advice (unless your goal was to end up going back to your country of origin with John's "Sorry, I don't know how visa sponsorship works" letter in your pocket).

[cavalier1138]

Agree with cavalier entirely. I would take the lSAT and apply. Am also an international non traditional recent graduate who transferred from a t30 (with full scholarship) to a t6. Happy to talk to you about my experience and share other advice. Feel free to dm me.

Thanks a lot my friend! Tried to PM you but message did not go though. Please let me know how i can reach out to you! My email: billqiu@vip.sina.com

I'd try it again, I prefer not to give out my email on this site. A lot of haters here but keep your head down and move forward and it works out!

Do you understand that 0Ls might actually take you seriously? Do you have any idea how much damage you can do giving flippant bullshit advice?

[johndooley]

Agree with cavalier entirely. I would take the lSAT and apply. Am also an international non traditional recent graduate who transferred from a t30 (with full scholarship) to a t6. Happy to talk to you about my experience and share other advice. Feel free to dm me.

Thanks a lot my friend! Tried to PM you but message did not go though. Please let me know how i can reach out to you! My email: billqiu@vip.sina.com

I'd try it again, I prefer not to give out my email on this site. A lot of haters here but keep your head down and move forward and it works out!

Do you understand that 0Ls might actually take you seriously? Do you have any idea how much damage you can do giving flippant bullshit advice?

Why should they not take me seriously? I am a relatively successful attorney with a partnership.

My advice is not "bull$hit." It certainly is not flippant given how much care I put into advice. I encourage others to do their best and invest in themselves. Leaving the US with a respected JD (Notre Dame) and debt that cannot follow them home is not exactly "damage" unless you are the lender.

[johndooley]

Thanks again@Cabaloer1138! The messages stay in my outbox. Do I need to do anything more for them to go out?

I'm not sure what the current filter is for PM privileges, but you may have not been a member long enough.

Also, please take everything John Dooley is saying with a massive grain of salt. He is very clearly proud of bucking the odds, but his advice is based on gut feeling, not on actual statistics or any first-hand knowledge of the visa process. The other poster in this thread is international, and they're giving you much better advice (unless your goal was to end up going back to your country of origin with John's "Sorry, I don't know how visa sponsorship works" letter in your pocket).

Cool. Let's see your statistics on H1B visa success rates for non-big law incoming associates since you made them out to be so dire. Both of us have been anecdotal thus far. Again, why do you assume I was born and raised in the US and am a citizen? I did not pull the "I know internationals who had X outcome" card until you did.

[nixy]

So are you actually not a US-born citizen or are you just trying to catch people in an assumption? You said you don’t know how ND is seen globally, which seems to suggest you’re not international, but if I’m wrong please correct me. An actual international JD in this thread has pointed to the problems that the OP is likely to face in getting employment here.

One major problem with “ditch the debt and go home if you can’t get status here” advice is that if the OP wants to work in the US (which attending school here suggests, although that’s not entirely clear from the original post), that’s a terrible outcome. There’s also the issue of getting funding that the other international student pointed out.

I actually agree that Maurer with no debt is a decent option for certain students, primarily those who want to stay in Indiana (or the general area) and aren’t biglaw or bust. Someone with the right kind of work experience/temperament who wanted to strike out on their own (in Indiana) could probably make that work from Maurer as well. But that’s premised on being able to work here. If you can point to specific programs that help small businesses (including law firms) hire international talent, that would be really helpful, except that it’s going to be hard for most new grads from an American law school to argue that they have the kind of specialized skills needed here that not enough US citizens have to support a visa application.

ND isn’t going to be easier to transfer to the T14 from, though - most of what determines your ability to transfer is success during 1L (I say “most” because even sterling performance at, say, Cooley is unlikely to get you into the T14, but I don’t think Maurer and ND are far enough apart to make a significant difference). No one can give the OP any odds on transferring until they have 1L grades and they shouldn’t attend a school intending to transfer unless they’re going to be happy with their options if the transfer doesn’t happen. Not that many people end up in a position to transfer.

It’s also still entirely unclear what the OP wants to do with their degree because it’s unknown what “legal consultant” means in this context. If it’s something like going back to their home country to work in government or to build on their current job and an American JD of any kind will give them a leg up, that’s very different from looking for a prestigious job in the US or something. I honestly don’t know what the OP wants to do so it’s hard to evaluate their options.

[johndooley]

So are you actually not a US-born citizen or are you just trying to catch people in an assumption? You said you don’t know how ND is seen globally, which seems to suggest you’re not an international, but if I’m wrong please correct me. An actual international JD in this thread has pointed to the problems that the OP is likely to face in getting employment here.

One major problem with “ditch the debt and go home if you can’t get status here” advice is that if the OP wants to work in the US (which attending school here suggests, although that’s not entirely clear from the original post), that’s a terrible outcome. There’s also the issue of getting funding that the other international student pointed out.

I actually agree that Maurer with no debt is a decent option for certain students, primarily those who want to stay in Indiana (or the general area) and aren’t biglaw or bust. Someone with the right kind of work experience/temperament who wanted to strike out on their own (in Indiana) could probably make that work from Maurer as well.

ND isn’t going to be easier to transfer to the T14 from, though - most of what determines your ability to transfer is success during 1L (I say “most” because even sterling performance at, say, Cooley is unlikely to get you into the T14, but I don’t think Maurer and ND are far enough apart to make a significant difference). No one can give the OP any odds on transferring until they have 1L grades and they shouldn’t attend a school intending to transfer unless they’re going to be happy with their options if the transfer doesn’t happen. Not that many people end up in a position to transfer.

It’s also still entirely unclear what the OP wants to do with their degree because it’s unknown what “legal consultant” means in this context. If it’s something like going back to their home country to work in government or to build on their current job and an American JD of any kind will give them a leg up, that’s very different from looking for a prestigious job in the US or something. I honestly don’t know what the OP wants to do so it’s hard to evaluate their options.

Whether I am a non-US born citizen is irrelevant here. My point is Cavalier1138 has used the same sources of justifications that I have: first-hand experience and anecdotes. He demands a "higher" level of proof than he himself is willing to give. I have been clear about what would constitute this: the failure rate of incoming associates at small firms or "legal consultants" who have been denied an H1B visa in percentage terms. Anything short of this and he is speaking as "flippantly" or unflippantly as myself. We all have contacts who have gone through the visa process. Your mileage may vary.

OP can likely get funding if he asks around enough. Regarding whether he would stay in the US, he has not made his goals clear, as you have noticed. There is a high chance a JD can help him in his home country, as American credentials are looked upon very favorably even if not a household name like Stanford.

It is disingenuous to treat ND and Maurer equally from a potential transfer context. Notre Dame is a major American institution and admissions committees will, consciously or unconsciously, look upon it more favorably.

[nixy]

So are you actually not a US-born citizen or are you just trying to catch people in an assumption? You said you don’t know how ND is seen globally, which seems to suggest you’re not an international, but if I’m wrong please correct me. An actual international JD in this thread has pointed to the problems that the OP is likely to face in getting employment here.

One major problem with “ditch the debt and go home if you can’t get status here” advice is that if the OP wants to work in the US (which attending school here suggests, although that’s not entirely clear from the original post), that’s a terrible outcome. There’s also the issue of getting funding that the other international student pointed out.

I actually agree that Maurer with no debt is a decent option for certain students, primarily those who want to stay in Indiana (or the general area) and aren’t biglaw or bust. Someone with the right kind of work experience/temperament who wanted to strike out on their own (in Indiana) could probably make that work from Maurer as well.

ND isn’t going to be easier to transfer to the T14 from, though - most of what determines your ability to transfer is success during 1L (I say “most” because even sterling performance at, say, Cooley is unlikely to get you into the T14, but I don’t think Maurer and ND are far enough apart to make a significant difference). No one can give the OP any odds on transferring until they have 1L grades and they shouldn’t attend a school intending to transfer unless they’re going to be happy with their options if the transfer doesn’t happen. Not that many people end up in a position to transfer.

It’s also still entirely unclear what the OP wants to do with their degree because it’s unknown what “legal consultant” means in this context. If it’s something like going back to their home country to work in government or to build on their current job and an American JD of any kind will give them a leg up, that’s very different from looking for a prestigious job in the US or something. I honestly don’t know what the OP wants to do so it’s hard to evaluate their options.

Whether I am a non-US born citizen is irrelevant here. My point is Cavalier1138 has used the same sources of justifications that I have: first-hand experience and anecdotes. He demands a "higher" level of proof than he himself is willing to give. I have been clear about what would constitute this: the failure rate of incoming associates at small firms or "legal consultants" who have been denied an H1B visa in percentage terms. Anything short of this and he is speaking as "flippantly" or unflippantly as myself. We all have contacts who have gone through the visa process. Your mileage may vary.

OP can likely get funding if he asks around enough. Regarding whether he would stay in the US, he has not made his goals clear, as you have noticed. There is a high chance a JD can help him in his home country, as American credentials are looked upon very favorably even if not a household name like Stanford.

It is disingenuous to treat ND and Maurer equally from a potential transfer context. Notre Dame is a major American institution and admissions committees will, consciously or unconsciously, look upon it more favorably.

So it sounds like you’re not actually international.

In any case, at a certain level we’re all operating on anecdotes here. But it’s not anecdotal that an international JD would need some kind of authorization to stay and work here, and discussion of visa issues over the years on this site have all been pretty consistent. You’re the first person to suggest that it’s not an issue.

Where would you expect an international student to get funding from if they look hard enough? As noted, they would need a US co-signer to get private loans in the US.

It’s disingenuous for you to claim that adcomms will treat Maurer and ND differently based on ND’s reputation as ND. Adcomms don’t care about Rudy. Performance in 1L is what matters. Now, all else being entirely equal - exact same same GPA and class rank - a ND student may have a slight edge based on the fact that ND’s entering stats are slightly higher than Maurer’s, but it won’t be because ND is famous and better known. The same would be true if you were looking at Maurer v Alabama, which is tied with ND in the rankings. And like I said, the gap between Maurer and ND isn’t so great that the higher ranking is going to carry the OP further than it would from Maurer.

[johndooley]

So are you actually not a US-born citizen or are you just trying to catch people in an assumption? You said you don’t know how ND is seen globally, which seems to suggest you’re not an international, but if I’m wrong please correct me. An actual international JD in this thread has pointed to the problems that the OP is likely to face in getting employment here.

One major problem with “ditch the debt and go home if you can’t get status here” advice is that if the OP wants to work in the US (which attending school here suggests, although that’s not entirely clear from the original post), that’s a terrible outcome. There’s also the issue of getting funding that the other international student pointed out.

I actually agree that Maurer with no debt is a decent option for certain students, primarily those who want to stay in Indiana (or the general area) and aren’t biglaw or bust. Someone with the right kind of work experience/temperament who wanted to strike out on their own (in Indiana) could probably make that work from Maurer as well.

ND isn’t going to be easier to transfer to the T14 from, though - most of what determines your ability to transfer is success during 1L (I say “most” because even sterling performance at, say, Cooley is unlikely to get you into the T14, but I don’t think Maurer and ND are far enough apart to make a significant difference). No one can give the OP any odds on transferring until they have 1L grades and they shouldn’t attend a school intending to transfer unless they’re going to be happy with their options if the transfer doesn’t happen. Not that many people end up in a position to transfer.

It’s also still entirely unclear what the OP wants to do with their degree because it’s unknown what “legal consultant” means in this context. If it’s something like going back to their home country to work in government or to build on their current job and an American JD of any kind will give them a leg up, that’s very different from looking for a prestigious job in the US or something. I honestly don’t know what the OP wants to do so it’s hard to evaluate their options.

Whether I am a non-US born citizen is irrelevant here. My point is Cavalier1138 has used the same sources of justifications that I have: first-hand experience and anecdotes. He demands a "higher" level of proof than he himself is willing to give. I have been clear about what would constitute this: the failure rate of incoming associates at small firms or "legal consultants" who have been denied an H1B visa in percentage terms. Anything short of this and he is speaking as "flippantly" or unflippantly as myself. We all have contacts who have gone through the visa process. Your mileage may vary.

OP can likely get funding if he asks around enough. Regarding whether he would stay in the US, he has not made his goals clear, as you have noticed. There is a high chance a JD can help him in his home country, as American credentials are looked upon very favorably even if not a household name like Stanford.

It is disingenuous to treat ND and Maurer equally from a potential transfer context. Notre Dame is a major American institution and admissions committees will, consciously or unconsciously, look upon it more favorably.

So it sounds like you’re not actually international.

In any case, at a certain level we’re all operating on anecdotes here. But it’s not anecdotal that an international JD would need some kind of authorization to stay and work here, and discussion of visa issues over the years on this site have all been pretty consistent. You’re the first person to suggest that it’s not an issue.

Where would you expect an international student to get funding from if they look hard enough? As noted, they would need a US co-signer to get private loans in the US.

It’s disingenuous for you to claim that adcomms will treat Maurer and ND differently based on ND’s reputation as ND. Adcomms don’t care about Rudy. Performance in 1L is what matters. Now, all else being entirely equal - exact same same GPA and class rank - a ND student may have a slight edge based on the fact that ND’s entering stats are slightly higher than Maurer’s, but it won’t be because ND is famous and better known. The same would be true if you were looking at Maurer v Alabama, which is tied with ND in the rankings. And like I said, the gap between Maurer and ND isn’t so great that the higher ranking is going to carry the OP further than it would from Maurer.

You do you on whether I am international. Again, it is irrelevant.

We are not all strictly operating on anecdotes here. You and I are. Cavalier1138 is operating on anecdotes, innuendo, and character attacks. It is a toxic brew.

OP's source of funding partly depends on his country of origin. Some have exceptionally well-funded scholarships and others do not. Regarding loans and co-signers, that is simply not true. Plenty of non-citizens obtain credit and loans within the US for all sorts of reasons, including student loans. They may carry a different interest rate and be a different originator than US-born students, but they are out there. Quick google hit: https://www.internationalstudent.com/lo ... ner-loans/ I am sure there are tons of others. He can go to Maurer or ND, maximize living expenses over three years, and then go back home with his hands clean.

[nixy]

So I looked at the options for a loan for ND:

Fixed interest rates before discounts from 7.99% to 13.99%

Fucking ouch.

[johndooley]

So I looked at the options for a loan for ND:

Fixed interest rates before discounts from 7.99% to 13.99%

Fucking ouch.

Yea but if you have zero intention to pay does that matter?

[nixy]

So I looked at the options for a loan for ND:

Fixed interest rates before discounts from 7.99% to 13.99%

Fucking ouch.

Yea but if you have zero intention to pay does that matter?

Just seems like a bad idea to get a degree from a country and then never be able to return to it again b/c you're fleeing student loan debt.

[johndooley]

So I looked at the options for a loan for ND:

Fixed interest rates before discounts from 7.99% to 13.99%

Fucking ouch.

Yea but if you have zero intention to pay does that matter?

Just seems like a bad idea to get a degree from a country and then never be able to return to it again b/c you're fleeing student loan debt.

This is an American Jd.

[nixy]

So I looked at the options for a loan for ND:

Fixed interest rates before discounts from 7.99% to 13.99%

Fucking ouch.

Yea but if you have zero intention to pay does that matter?

Just seems like a bad idea to get a degree from a country and then never be able to return to it again b/c you're fleeing student loan debt.

This is an American Jd.

Yes, the country I was referring to was the United States. It’s a bad idea to take out debt to get a JD from the US on the assumption that if you don’t get a job after you graduate, you can escape the debt by returning to your home country and making it essentially impossible for you to return to the US again. That’s a terrible plan.

[cavalier1138]

You do you on whether I am international. Again, it is irrelevant.

We are not all strictly operating on anecdotes here. You and I are. Cavalier1138 is operating on anecdotes, innuendo, and character attacks. It is a toxic brew.

OP's source of funding partly depends on his country of origin. Some have exceptionally well-funded scholarships and others do not. Regarding loans and co-signers, that is simply not true. Plenty of non-citizens obtain credit and loans within the US for all sorts of reasons, including student loans. They may carry a different interest rate and be a different originator than US-born students, but they are out there. Quick google hit: https://www.internationalstudent.com/lo ... ner-loans/ I am sure there are tons of others. He can go to Maurer or ND, maximize living expenses over three years, and then go back home with his hands clean.

You're deliberately acting like your citizenship status is "unclear" in order to pretend that you could have some kind of special insight into this subject.

As nixy pointed out, international students and lawyers have posted consistently on this forum over the years regarding the H1B visa process (one of them is in this thread; you pushed back on their comments). Their input has been completely consistent over that time. It's also consistent with what I have encountered personally in working with foreign-born lawyers and going to school with many, many international students who were trying to go through the process themselves.

But at this point, let's just be clear on your brilliant plan: You're advising someone to commit fraud instead of taking the LSAT and giving themselves a shot at actually getting the outcome they want. You only do medical malpractice, right?

[johndooley]

So I looked at the options for a loan for ND:

Fixed interest rates before discounts from 7.99% to 13.99%

Fucking ouch.

Yea but if you have zero intention to pay does that matter?

Just seems like a bad idea to get a degree from a country and then never be able to return to it again b/c you're fleeing student loan debt.

This is an American Jd.

Yes, the country I was referring to was the United States. It’s a bad idea to take out debt to get a JD from the US on the assumption that if you don’t get a job after you graduate, you can escape the debt by returning to your home country and making it essentially impossible for you to return to the US again. That’s a terrible plan.

If someone gave me 300k to get a degree in France on the condition I couldn’t go back I’d call that an awesome deal. He could return too. There’s no debtor prison.

[johndooley]

You do you on whether I am international. Again, it is irrelevant.

We are not all strictly operating on anecdotes here. You and I are. Cavalier1138 is operating on anecdotes, innuendo, and character attacks. It is a toxic brew.

OP's source of funding partly depends on his country of origin. Some have exceptionally well-funded scholarships and others do not. Regarding loans and co-signers, that is simply not true. Plenty of non-citizens obtain credit and loans within the US for all sorts of reasons, including student loans. They may carry a different interest rate and be a different originator than US-born students, but they are out there. Quick google hit: https://www.internationalstudent.com/lo ... ner-loans/ I am sure there are tons of others. He can go to Maurer or ND, maximize living expenses over three years, and then go back home with his hands clean.

You're deliberately acting like your citizenship status is "unclear" in order to pretend that you could have some kind of special insight into this subject.

As nixy pointed out, international students and lawyers have posted consistently on this forum over the years regarding the H1B visa process (one of them is in this thread; you pushed back on their comments). Their input has been completely consistent over that time. It's also consistent with what I have encountered personally in working with foreign-born lawyers and going to school with many, many international students who were trying to go through the process themselves.

But at this point, let's just be clear on your brilliant plan: You're advising someone to commit fraud instead of taking the LSAT and giving themselves a shot at actually getting the outcome they want. You only do medical malpractice, right?

It is not consistent and a simple search function on TLS bears that out.

What fraud is being committed? There’s nothing fraudulent in taking loans you won’t repay

[guwailawschool]

I appreciate everyone for giving me advices. I have alternative sources to fund law school will not need to take a loan in the US. I apologize for the disagreement my post has caused among the kind people who have given me advices. I think I am clear what I want to do and further advices will not be needed. Again I want to thank everyone for sharing your thoughts with me!

[johndooley]

I appreciate everyone for giving me advices. I have alternative sources to fund law school will not need to take a loan in the US. I apologize for the disagreement my post has caused among the kind people who have given me advices. I think I am clear what I want to do and further advices will not be needed. Again I want to thank everyone for sharing your thoughts with me!

Awesome! Best of luck in law school!

[cavalier1138]

It is not consistent and a simple search function on TLS bears that out.

What fraud is being committed? There’s nothing fraudulent in taking loans you won’t repay

QFP.

[johndooley]

It is not consistent and a simple search function on TLS bears that out.

What fraud is being committed? There’s nothing fraudulent in taking loans you won’t repay

QFP.

Not fraudulent