NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$) Forum

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guwailawschool

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NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:55 pm

I am an international non-traditional (with ore 20 years of WE) applicant with a goal of becoming a legal consultant after law school. I have been offered an scholarship of close to full tuition by IU Maurer and a minimal amount by NDLS. Which one should I choose? Greatly appreciate your suggestions!!!

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cavalier1138

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:20 am

What do you mean by "legal consultant"? Where do you want to work? And what's your citizenship status?

If you aren't a citizen, you have very few options to get the right visa that will let you stay in the United States. My understanding is that big law firms are one of the only semi-reliable paths to those visas, and although ND gives you a better shot at those kinds of firms than IU does, it still sounds like a bad idea.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:02 pm

Thank you so much @Cavelier1138! I am a non-resident alien and a non-traditional applicant. I applied fairly late in the cycle this year, but do not want to wait till the next cycle. Is it easier to transfer to a T14 from NDLS than from IU Maurer? Really appreciate your advice!

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:45 pm

Do not go anywhere with the intent of transferring. If you need a visa to stay in the US (assuming you want to stay here), you don't have the right school options for that.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:00 pm

Thank yoy so much @Cavalier1138! I applied with GRE in this cycle. Do I have a better shot to take the LSAT and re-apply with LSAT?

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:10 pm

Agree with cavalier entirely. I would take the lSAT and apply. Am also an international non traditional recent graduate who transferred from a t30 (with full scholarship) to a t6. Happy to talk to you about my experience and share other advice. Feel free to dm me.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:15 pm

guwailawschool wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:55 pm
I am an international non-traditional (with ore 20 years of WE) applicant with a goal of becoming a legal consultant after law school. I have been offered an scholarship of close to full tuition by IU Maurer and a minimal amount by NDLS. Which one should I choose? Greatly appreciate your suggestions!!!
Hey, attorney here with 10+ years of experience. You are going to get some pushback on Maurer because it is not highly ranked but I would take the money over debt most of the time. It is too big a gamble to take on debt you cannot discharge. Short of moving abroad and giving up your citizenship, you will never be free from it so long as it is not paid. People even at ND end up without jobs able to cover their debt loads.

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cavalier1138

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:28 pm

johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:15 pm
guwailawschool wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:55 pm
I am an international non-traditional (with ore 20 years of WE) applicant with a goal of becoming a legal consultant after law school. I have been offered an scholarship of close to full tuition by IU Maurer and a minimal amount by NDLS. Which one should I choose? Greatly appreciate your suggestions!!!
Hey, attorney here with 10+ years of experience. You are going to get some pushback on Maurer because it is not highly ranked but I would take the money over debt most of the time. It is too big a gamble to take on debt you cannot discharge. Short of moving abroad and giving up your citizenship, you will never be free from it so long as it is not paid. People even at ND end up without jobs able to cover their debt loads.
Did you read the thread? OP isn't a citizen, and the pushback against Maurer (and ND) here has nothing to do with ranking.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:32 pm

Greatly appreciate your perpective @johndooley! Which would you choose if debt were not an issue? Is NDLS more portable globally or eadier to transfer to a T14?

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:38 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:28 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:15 pm
guwailawschool wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:55 pm
I am an international non-traditional (with ore 20 years of WE) applicant with a goal of becoming a legal consultant after law school. I have been offered an scholarship of close to full tuition by IU Maurer and a minimal amount by NDLS. Which one should I choose? Greatly appreciate your suggestions!!!
Hey, attorney here with 10+ years of experience. You are going to get some pushback on Maurer because it is not highly ranked but I would take the money over debt most of the time. It is too big a gamble to take on debt you cannot discharge. Short of moving abroad and giving up your citizenship, you will never be free from it so long as it is not paid. People even at ND end up without jobs able to cover their debt loads.
Did you read the thread? OP isn't a citizen, and the pushback against Maurer (and ND) here has nothing to do with ranking.
I know he has not gotten that pushback yet, but he likely will at some point if he continues to post about Maurer.

As you said, large firms have ample resources to obtain work visas and there are programs that assist small businesses (i.e. small firms) in attracting international talent. His lack of citizenship is not an insurmountable goal.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:39 pm

guwailawschool wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:32 pm
Greatly appreciate your perpective @johndooley! Which would you choose if debt were not an issue? Is NDLS more portable globally or eadier to transfer to a T14?
ND is a brand name in the US, everyone as seen "Rudy." I do not know how known it is globally, I suspect it has limited name recognition. It is certainly easier to transfer to a T14 from ND than Maurer. But Maurer will provide opportunities for a mature student looking to build a career in law.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:50 pm

Truly appreciate @johndooley!

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cavalier1138

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:58 pm

johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:39 pm
guwailawschool wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:32 pm
Greatly appreciate your perpective @johndooley! Which would you choose if debt were not an issue? Is NDLS more portable globally or eadier to transfer to a T14?
ND is a brand name in the US, everyone as seen "Rudy." I do not know how known it is globally, I suspect it has limited name recognition. It is certainly easier to transfer to a T14 from ND than Maurer. But Maurer will provide opportunities for a mature student looking to build a career in law.
This is downright idiotic advice that ignores the OP's very specific situation. Ignoring your overly rosy view of legal hiring (you get dragged enough for that in other threads, and it's clear that survivorship bias is a hell of a drug), getting the H1B visa is much more difficult than you have claimed it is.

Literally any foreign citizen working as a lawyer in the US will tell you that you need biglaw to have anything resembling a guarantee of getting that visa. I have no idea why you think you have a better understanding of the system than they do.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:06 pm

OP, if you're not going to reapply, Maurer is the way to go. But I would warn against that option (or even the hypothetical option of NDLS with money) as an international who needs a visa.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:10 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:58 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:39 pm
guwailawschool wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:32 pm
Greatly appreciate your perpective @johndooley! Which would you choose if debt were not an issue? Is NDLS more portable globally or eadier to transfer to a T14?
ND is a brand name in the US, everyone as seen "Rudy." I do not know how known it is globally, I suspect it has limited name recognition. It is certainly easier to transfer to a T14 from ND than Maurer. But Maurer will provide opportunities for a mature student looking to build a career in law.
This is downright idiotic advice that ignores the OP's very specific situation. Ignoring your overly rosy view of legal hiring (you get dragged enough for that in other threads, and it's clear that survivorship bias is a hell of a drug), getting the H1B visa is much more difficult than you have claimed it is.

Literally any foreign citizen working as a lawyer in the US will tell you that you need biglaw to have anything resembling a guarantee of getting that visa. I have no idea why you think you have a better understanding of the system than they do.
I didn’t get dragged for an overly rosy view of legal hiring in other threads. Especially not when I have posted my job listing that received several resumes. I got dragged for pointing out that I make more money, living in a bigger house, and work fewer hours than any corporate associate in big law and many partners.

An H1B is not as hard to obtain as you make it out to be. I know you like the near sob stories and overcoming obstacle narratives your friends give you but take them with a big grain of salt. I also like how you assume I’m from the US.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:12 pm

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:06 pm
OP, if you're not going to reapply, Maurer is the way to go. But I would warn against that option (or even the hypothetical option of NDLS with money) as an international who needs a visa.
You’re forgetting a crucial part here. Even if he struck out of jobs and wound up in debt and was deported, he would never then have to pay back the loans. As a foreign National he will not have to repay and he will have a new professional credential in his home country. Not bad.

Americans in deep student debt (talking 500k plus with accrued interest) often move to turkey or Vietnam to teach English and not pay back the debt. It is not ideal but what other choice do they have

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:16 pm

johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:12 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:06 pm
OP, if you're not going to reapply, Maurer is the way to go. But I would warn against that option (or even the hypothetical option of NDLS with money) as an international who needs a visa.
You’re forgetting a crucial part here. Even if he struck out of jobs and wound up in debt and was deported, he would never then have to pay back the loans. As a foreign National he will not have to repay and he will have a new professional credential in his home country. Not bad.

Americans in deep student debt (talking 500k plus with accrued interest) often move to turkey or Vietnam to teach English and not pay back the debt. It is not ideal but what other choice do they have
You're forgetting a more crucial fact. He is unlikely to get a loan in the US (precisely because of the flight risk you articulated so well). He will probably need to take out a loan from his home country.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:16 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:12 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:06 pm
OP, if you're not going to reapply, Maurer is the way to go. But I would warn against that option (or even the hypothetical option of NDLS with money) as an international who needs a visa.
You’re forgetting a crucial part here. Even if he struck out of jobs and wound up in debt and was deported, he would never then have to pay back the loans. As a foreign National he will not have to repay and he will have a new professional credential in his home country. Not bad.

Americans in deep student debt (talking 500k plus with accrued interest) often move to turkey or Vietnam to teach English and not pay back the debt. It is not ideal but what other choice do they have
You're forgetting a more crucial fact. He is unlikely to get a loan in the US (precisely because of the flight risk you articulated so well). He will probably need to take out a loan from his home country.
I know of three examples of this happening. Thing is if you pursue private loans the interest rate is so high that you’ll want to skip town. But three years studying in the states and moving out at zero cost isn’t too bad. I’m sure the law schools will point OP in the right direction to access the funds. He is a customer effectively and they need his money.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:25 pm

johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:16 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:12 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:06 pm
OP, if you're not going to reapply, Maurer is the way to go. But I would warn against that option (or even the hypothetical option of NDLS with money) as an international who needs a visa.
You’re forgetting a crucial part here. Even if he struck out of jobs and wound up in debt and was deported, he would never then have to pay back the loans. As a foreign National he will not have to repay and he will have a new professional credential in his home country. Not bad.

Americans in deep student debt (talking 500k plus with accrued interest) often move to turkey or Vietnam to teach English and not pay back the debt. It is not ideal but what other choice do they have
You're forgetting a more crucial fact. He is unlikely to get a loan in the US (precisely because of the flight risk you articulated so well). He will probably need to take out a loan from his home country.
I know of three examples of this happening. Thing is if you pursue private loans the interest rate is so high that you’ll want to skip town. But three years studying in the states and moving out at zero cost isn’t too bad. I’m sure the law schools will point OP in the right direction to access the funds. He is a customer effectively and they need his money.
They don't point in any direction because there are no directions. You know of three examples of this happening. I know if many more examples of this not happening. Doesn't change anything.
Very slim chance of him getting a US loan without a local cosigner.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:46 pm

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:25 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:16 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:12 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:06 pm
OP, if you're not going to reapply, Maurer is the way to go. But I would warn against that option (or even the hypothetical option of NDLS with money) as an international who needs a visa.
You’re forgetting a crucial part here. Even if he struck out of jobs and wound up in debt and was deported, he would never then have to pay back the loans. As a foreign National he will not have to repay and he will have a new professional credential in his home country. Not bad.

Americans in deep student debt (talking 500k plus with accrued interest) often move to turkey or Vietnam to teach English and not pay back the debt. It is not ideal but what other choice do they have
You're forgetting a more crucial fact. He is unlikely to get a loan in the US (precisely because of the flight risk you articulated so well). He will probably need to take out a loan from his home country.
I know of three examples of this happening. Thing is if you pursue private loans the interest rate is so high that you’ll want to skip town. But three years studying in the states and moving out at zero cost isn’t too bad. I’m sure the law schools will point OP in the right direction to access the funds. He is a customer effectively and they need his money.
They don't point in any direction because there are no directions. You know of three examples of this happening. I know if many more examples of this not happening. Doesn't change anything.
Very slim chance of him getting a US loan without a local cosigner.
If you are not Canadian or Mexican then most universities will not give financial aid. Merit and specific scholarships for foreign students are not exactly abundant. Not every single international student on a campus is able to afford full tuition. How do they get by? Loans. They exist, they are out there, OP will find one.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:56 pm

guwailawschool wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:50 pm
Truly appreciate @johndooley!
Thanks, I believe in you.

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:59 pm

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:10 pm
Agree with cavalier entirely. I would take the lSAT and apply. Am also an international non traditional recent graduate who transferred from a t30 (with full scholarship) to a t6. Happy to talk to you about my experience and share other advice. Feel free to dm me.
Thanks a lot my friend! Tried to PM you but message did not go though. Please let me know how i can reach out to you! My email: billqiu@vip.sina.com

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:07 pm

guwailawschool wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:59 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:10 pm
Agree with cavalier entirely. I would take the lSAT and apply. Am also an international non traditional recent graduate who transferred from a t30 (with full scholarship) to a t6. Happy to talk to you about my experience and share other advice. Feel free to dm me.
Thanks a lot my friend! Tried to PM you but message did not go though. Please let me know how i can reach out to you! My email: billqiu@vip.sina.com
I'd try it again, I prefer not to give out my email on this site. A lot of haters here but keep your head down and move forward and it works out!

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:09 pm

Thank you for the heads up @Johndooley !

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Re: NDLS (no $) vs IU Maurer ($$$)

Post by guwailawschool » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:27 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:20 am
What do you mean by "legal consultant"? Where do you want to work? And what's your citizenship status?

If you aren't a citizen, you have very few options to get the right visa that will let you stay in the United States. My understanding is that big law firms are one of the only semi-reliable paths to those visas, and although ND gives you a better shot at those kinds of firms than IU does, it still sounds like a bad idea.
Hello @Cavalier1138, Thank you for all your candid advices. I tried to send out a few PMs but did not go through. Can you please let me know what I need to do to get them through? Thx a lot!

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