Mizzou vs UMKC Forum

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jrjohnstone

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Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by jrjohnstone » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:43 pm

I am looking at going to either Mizzou or UMKC in Kansas City.

Mizzou will be considerably more expensive approximately $15,000 more a year including tuition+fee and cost of living.

UMKC has offered $8,000 in scholarship on top of a instate tuition waver with no conditions. Mizzou has offered a one year in state tuition waver baring I apply to be a Missouri resident after my first year.

I will be taking out student loans to pay for grad school but will have approximately $60,000 in the bank for savings at the time of graduation.

I am from Kansas City with family and friends located there. However my girlfriends family is in Columbia where Mizzou is.

I would like to become a US Attorney after graduation with plans to eventually become a judge.

GPA 3.12 graduated college 6 years ago and a 158 LSAT.

Taken LSAT 2 times.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by beinghuman » Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:38 am

I think it would be very difficult to get US attorney from either school.

Mizzou's employment numbers are certainly better than UMKC's. However, I'm not sure they justify an extra 45k+interest. https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/s ... c/missouri

What would your total cost be at UMKC? What other types of legal jobs would you be willing to take/be interested in?


jrjohnstone wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:43 pm
I am looking at going to either Mizzou or UMKC in Kansas City.

Mizzou will be considerably more expensive approximately $15,000 more a year including tuition+fee and cost of living.

UMKC has offered $8,000 in scholarship on top of a instate tuition waver with no conditions. Mizzou has offered a one year in state tuition waver baring I apply to be a Missouri resident after my first year.

I will be taking out student loans to pay for grad school but will have approximately $60,000 in the bank for savings at the time of graduation.

I am from Kansas City with family and friends located there. However my girlfriends family is in Columbia where Mizzou is.

I would like to become a US Attorney after graduation with plans to eventually become a judge.

GPA 3.12 graduated college 6 years ago and a 158 LSAT.

Taken LSAT 2 times.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:05 am

Yeah, I think you need a reality check on the normal path people take to become AUSAs. There are almost no honors program slots for USAOs, and it's not realistic to expect to get there later with the typical jobs available to grads from either of these schools.

Some USAOs hire high-performing DAs, but a lot of offices (especially more competitive offices) do the bulk of their hiring from biglaw. Becoming an ADA in Missouri is doable from both these schools, but that's about it.

So if your only goal is federal prosecution, retake and reapply for better options.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:37 pm

jrjohnstone wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:43 pm
I am looking at going to either Mizzou or UMKC in Kansas City.

Mizzou will be considerably more expensive approximately $15,000 more a year including tuition+fee and cost of living.

UMKC has offered $8,000 in scholarship on top of a instate tuition waver with no conditions. Mizzou has offered a one year in state tuition waver baring I apply to be a Missouri resident after my first year.

I will be taking out student loans to pay for grad school but will have approximately $60,000 in the bank for savings at the time of graduation.

I am from Kansas City with family and friends located there. However my girlfriends family is in Columbia where Mizzou is.

I would like to become a US Attorney after graduation with plans to eventually become a judge.

GPA 3.12 graduated college 6 years ago and a 158 LSAT.

Taken LSAT 2 times.
Hey man sometimes you have to pursue the future Mrs so the decision is clear. Your parents will understand. People may say you can’t get those jobs from those schools but just work your tail off and network. Meet with the US attorneys in the group you want to be in.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:17 am

johndooley wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:37 pm
jrjohnstone wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:43 pm
I am looking at going to either Mizzou or UMKC in Kansas City.

Mizzou will be considerably more expensive approximately $15,000 more a year including tuition+fee and cost of living.

UMKC has offered $8,000 in scholarship on top of a instate tuition waver with no conditions. Mizzou has offered a one year in state tuition waver baring I apply to be a Missouri resident after my first year.

I will be taking out student loans to pay for grad school but will have approximately $60,000 in the bank for savings at the time of graduation.

I am from Kansas City with family and friends located there. However my girlfriends family is in Columbia where Mizzou is.

I would like to become a US Attorney after graduation with plans to eventually become a judge.

GPA 3.12 graduated college 6 years ago and a 158 LSAT.

Taken LSAT 2 times.
Hey man sometimes you have to pursue the future Mrs so the decision is clear. Your parents will understand. People may say you can’t get those jobs from those schools but just work your tail off and network. Meet with the US attorneys in the group you want to be in.
That's not how it works. And if OP needs to stay in Missouri, there are better school options in-state.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:01 am

You really need to be more specific. Missouri is right next door and you don’t have to go to the “top” school necessarily. I bet that office has alums from both schools.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by crazywafflez » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:04 am

I think you need to look at the total costs. I don't know the market that well, but I'll push back a little on some of the advice and echo Cav, that in smaller markets, there is a small, but consistent number of ADAs who do go onto AUSA. I'm in a similar market to KC (maybe a smidge smaller), and I'd say out of the ones I know, a third or so were ADAs first. And that both those schools will get you a gig as an ADA. Just be prepared that there's a good chance you don't become an AUSA, but not 0.
What is it you like about AUSA work?

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:19 pm

crazywafflez wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:04 am
I think you need to look at the total costs. I don't know the market that well, but I'll push back a little on some of the advice and echo Cav, that in smaller markets, there is a small, but consistent number of ADAs who do go onto AUSA. I'm in a similar market to KC (maybe a smidge smaller), and I'd say out of the ones I know, a third or so were ADAs first. And that both those schools will get you a gig as an ADA. Just be prepared that there's a good chance you don't become an AUSA, but not 0.
What is it you like about AUSA work?
Crediting this. It is not accurate to say a T13 matters all that much in a lot of these offices. KC will not be saturated with harvard alums.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:47 pm

johndooley wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:19 pm
crazywafflez wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:04 am
I think you need to look at the total costs. I don't know the market that well, but I'll push back a little on some of the advice and echo Cav, that in smaller markets, there is a small, but consistent number of ADAs who do go onto AUSA. I'm in a similar market to KC (maybe a smidge smaller), and I'd say out of the ones I know, a third or so were ADAs first. And that both those schools will get you a gig as an ADA. Just be prepared that there's a good chance you don't become an AUSA, but not 0.
What is it you like about AUSA work?
Crediting this. It is not accurate to say a T13 matters all that much in a lot of these offices. KC will not be saturated with harvard alums.
No one mentioned the T13 (there are literally better schools in Missouri). But more importantly, this assumes that everyone applying for a position at the Missouri USAO will be local.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:55 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:47 pm
johndooley wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:19 pm
crazywafflez wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:04 am
I think you need to look at the total costs. I don't know the market that well, but I'll push back a little on some of the advice and echo Cav, that in smaller markets, there is a small, but consistent number of ADAs who do go onto AUSA. I'm in a similar market to KC (maybe a smidge smaller), and I'd say out of the ones I know, a third or so were ADAs first. And that both those schools will get you a gig as an ADA. Just be prepared that there's a good chance you don't become an AUSA, but not 0.
What is it you like about AUSA work?
Crediting this. It is not accurate to say a T13 matters all that much in a lot of these offices. KC will not be saturated with harvard alums.
No one mentioned the T13 (there are literally better schools in Missouri). But more importantly, this assumes that everyone applying for a position at the Missouri USAO will be local.
I did not attribute the T13 comment and posted it as a hypothetical, sometimes it helps to outline what is untrue. In Missouri there are better ranked schools, guess it depends on goals which is a better fit. Agreed on the local bit, it would be helpful if OP did a linkedin search of current attorneys there with a breakdown of background and alma mater.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by latinx » Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm

3.1 GPA is likely not getting you into a top school regardless of your LSAT score. Any other schools, like Missouri, are regional or local, although they do place a small fraction of graduates in BL, etc., and this fraction is higher at Missouri than UMKC. Really comes down to how set you are in your primary objective, and how debt averse. $100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV. However, it will affect your quality of life. So you have to weigh the better networking and connections at a school like Missouri versus the lower debt at UMKC.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:57 pm

latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
3.1 GPA is likely not getting you into a top school regardless of your LSAT score. Any other schools, like Missouri, are regional or local, although they do place a small fraction of graduates in BL, etc., and this fraction is higher at Missouri than UMKC. Really comes down to how set you are in your primary objective, and how debt averse. $100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV. However, it will affect your quality of life. So you have to weigh the better networking and connections at a school like Missouri versus the lower debt at UMKC.
100k is not a lot of money when you can sell the car or house or stock or if it is debt discharge it. Student debt is not dischargeable. It will follow you to the grave and shouldn’t be taken lightly.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:52 pm

latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
$100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV.
doesn't mean it isn't stupid to do so

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by latinx » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:00 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:52 pm
latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
$100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV.
doesn't mean it isn't stupid to do so
I agree with the contention that debt is always something to avoid; whether house, car, education, investment, credit card, etc. Also depends upon the person, as some are better at handling debt than others. However, to say it is stupid is oversimplifying. Studies have shown that the average law student assumes over $150K in debt and yet over 97% repay the debt, a higher fraction than almost any other group. The real issue is whether the OP really wants the likely outcome from this education enough to warrant the debt. This is more than just a straight monetary calculation, as the OP needs to determine whether the likely career that is obtained with the degree is far enough preferable to a career obtained without going to law school to warrant the expense. Don't forget that the lost wages over the three years of law school will likely exceed the debt that is being incurred, so I would argue that the debt is a smaller consideration in that regard, if kept at a low level.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by latinx » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:05 pm

johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:57 pm
latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
3.1 GPA is likely not getting you into a top school regardless of your LSAT score. Any other schools, like Missouri, are regional or local, although they do place a small fraction of graduates in BL, etc., and this fraction is higher at Missouri than UMKC. Really comes down to how set you are in your primary objective, and how debt averse. $100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV. However, it will affect your quality of life. So you have to weigh the better networking and connections at a school like Missouri versus the lower debt at UMKC.
100k is not a lot of money when you can sell the car or house or stock or if it is debt discharge it. Student debt is not dischargeable. It will follow you to the grave and shouldn’t be taken lightly.
True, but I have rarely sold a car without losing the majority of my purchase price. And no one has said that student debt (or any debt) should be taken lightly. The OP needs to seriously consider the likely outcome of the path he chooses and weigh in his mind whether it is worth the amount of debt (plus the lost income during those three years)

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by nixy » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:09 pm

latinx wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:00 pm
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:52 pm
latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
$100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV.
doesn't mean it isn't stupid to do so
I agree with the contention that debt is always something to avoid; whether house, car, education, investment, credit card, etc. Also depends upon the person, as some are better at handling debt than others. However, to say it is stupid is oversimplifying. Studies have shown that the average law student assumes over $150K in debt and yet over 97% repay the debt, a higher fraction than almost any other group. The real issue is whether the OP really wants the likely outcome from this education enough to warrant the debt. This is more than just a straight monetary calculation, as the OP needs to determine whether the likely career that is obtained with the degree is far enough preferable to a career obtained without going to law school to warrant the expense. Don't forget that the lost wages over the three years of law school will likely exceed the debt that is being incurred, so I would argue that the debt is a smaller consideration in that regard, if kept at a low level.
Just because most people repay the debt doesn’t tell you anything about whether they think it was a good choice to make in the first place.

Also, how much do you think most people who apply to law school are earning a year, that their lost wages exceed the debt incurred?

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:43 pm

latinx wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:05 pm
johndooley wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:57 pm
latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
3.1 GPA is likely not getting you into a top school regardless of your LSAT score. Any other schools, like Missouri, are regional or local, although they do place a small fraction of graduates in BL, etc., and this fraction is higher at Missouri than UMKC. Really comes down to how set you are in your primary objective, and how debt averse. $100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV. However, it will affect your quality of life. So you have to weigh the better networking and connections at a school like Missouri versus the lower debt at UMKC.
100k is not a lot of money when you can sell the car or house or stock or if it is debt discharge it. Student debt is not dischargeable. It will follow you to the grave and shouldn’t be taken lightly.
True, but I have rarely sold a car without losing the majority of my purchase price. And no one has said that student debt (or any debt) should be taken lightly. The OP needs to seriously consider the likely outcome of the path he chooses and weigh in his mind whether it is worth the amount of debt (plus the lost income during those three years)
Regarding car value, yes, nearly every purchase will depreciate unless it is a unique classic car, in which case you are probably already rich.

100k is a humongous sum of money to owe if you are making under-50k a year which is likely from the schools we are talking about. I am not being a snob here, my alma mater was even worse. Interest accrues fast and you may actually never get back to neutral net worth, even with IBR. That 100k cannot be discharged, the exceptions to this rule are so rare as to not be considered. The odds of having a job to service this debt the first few years out of these law schools is very low.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:45 pm

nixy wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:09 pm
latinx wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:00 pm
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:52 pm
latinx wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 pm
$100K is not a huge sum of money; middle class people spend $80K on a SUV.
doesn't mean it isn't stupid to do so
I agree with the contention that debt is always something to avoid; whether house, car, education, investment, credit card, etc. Also depends upon the person, as some are better at handling debt than others. However, to say it is stupid is oversimplifying. Studies have shown that the average law student assumes over $150K in debt and yet over 97% repay the debt, a higher fraction than almost any other group. The real issue is whether the OP really wants the likely outcome from this education enough to warrant the debt. This is more than just a straight monetary calculation, as the OP needs to determine whether the likely career that is obtained with the degree is far enough preferable to a career obtained without going to law school to warrant the expense. Don't forget that the lost wages over the three years of law school will likely exceed the debt that is being incurred, so I would argue that the debt is a smaller consideration in that regard, if kept at a low level.
Just because most people repay the debt doesn’t tell you anything about whether they think it was a good choice to make in the first place.

Also, how much do you think most people who apply to law school are earning a year, that their lost wages exceed the debt incurred?
Lol this poster has no idea the lengths some recent grads go to pay back debt. Eating ramen, avoiding medical treatments, selling any furniture they own. There are hair raising stories all over within that "97%." Also I suspect that number is inflated using some pretty obvious methods to rope more graduates in.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by cavalier1138 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:16 pm

Can someone link to anything actually showing the 97% repayment rate?

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by latinx » Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:33 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:16 pm
Can someone link to anything actually showing the 97% repayment rate?
As a start, you can read "The economic value of a law degree" in the Journal of Legal Studies (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677921). I mention it in a earlier thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=311704

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by latinx » Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:54 pm

I agree with all the above posts about the hazards of taking out loans; usually far wiser to save money first and delay gratification than get buried by interest payments. I personally have only borrowed money to buy a house; paid for cars, school, and other costs in cash after I saved enough. However, I again assert 100K is not a large number in the big picture. There are folks that spend that much for a fancy wedding, or a new car, or 20 years of season tickets, or 20 years of vacations (none of which is a good idea if you are borrowing the money). When you consider that even at minimum wage you will earn a million dollars in your lifetime (even ignoring inflation), and most folks earn two or three times that, 100K is just a small fraction and can be managed with prudent spending habits (OK, eating raman every night is a bit extreme). And I again assert that the cost of lost earnings during your three years in school far exceed 100K.

It can often be worth the cost of loans to attend law school (300K is much harder to justify, and borrowing to finance any predatory school is unwise regardless of the amount borrowed). In some cases (e.g., biglaw), the economics work out. In other cases, someone may derive more satisfaction out of a career in law than other careers despite the economics. Nonetheless, I agree with everyone that every prospective student needs to carefully weigh the costs and benefits before embarking in loan financing. The ABA has published nice articles of the hardships that law school graduates often endure due to loans (should be required reading prior to borrowing).

We can continue this discussion, although I sense the OP is no longer following this thread.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by nixy » Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:12 pm

So one of the things I found interesting about that article was that the authors acknowledge that they can’t parse the different value in going to *one particular law school* over another, which is often the kind of question that arises here (which law schools are worth the cost).

I’m also not sure why you’re focusing on $100k in debt when most schools cost significantly more than that at sticker.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by latinx » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:49 pm

nixy wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:12 pm
I’m also not sure why you’re focusing on $100k in debt when most schools cost significantly more than that at sticker.
The OP didn't give an actual COA number, but 100K seems like a good ballpark estimate based on the numbers the OP provided. The OP seems to be deciding between Mizzou and UMKC, which will differ significantly in cost and employment/bar passage outcomes. Agree that anyone considering sticker is in for the much larger 300K or more figure, but that raises a red flag for me unless biglaw is likely. Average debt is something like 160K for law school, so 100K is on the low side but within range of that. I suppose it is a moot point as the OP seems to have vanished.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by johndooley » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:04 pm

You are being extremely disingenuous. You can max out a credit card on a wedding or a car or any consumer item or real estate. You can then declare bankruptcy and be clean of all debts. You can almost never discharge student loan debt. Never. It will follow you to the grave. You have no idea the financial burden you are placing someone going to a school without big law prospects.

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Re: Mizzou vs UMKC

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:15 pm

latinx wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:33 pm
cavalier1138 wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:16 pm
Can someone link to anything actually showing the 97% repayment rate?
As a start, you can read "The economic value of a law degree" in the Journal of Legal Studies (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677921). I mention it in a earlier thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=311704
You understand that it's possible to not default on student loans but not actually pay off the debt, right? The number you're citing to is based on how many students defaulted. I'm not sure that anyone publishes repayment data.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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