GULC($$$$) vs Columbia (?) Forum

[TigersAreCool]

Hey guys,
I recently got a scholarship from Georgetown offering me just barely short of a full ride. Before this, I was fairly confident I was going to attend Columbia - I haven't received an offer from them yet. I'm expecting a decent amount of need-based aid but I'm not sure at what point it'd be worth forgoing a T14 full ride... I'm going to send this to CLS so I'd like to see at what $$ you guys think it'd be worth it to give up what is objectively an amazing offer from GULC.

My goals: clerkship -> biglaw -> ADA/AUSA. I'm from California and for personal reasons want to end up back in California. These are the only 2 offers I'm considering(either WL/R or low $ at other schools) and I'm obviously I'm very grateful for my options but I'm so dizzy now.

[talons2250]

I say Columbia. You don't know how you'll do 1L year and you have more cushion at Columbia than Georgetown to get not-so-stellar grades and still achieve your goals (clerkship, biglaw). As for the debt, biglaw will help with that.

[nixy]

Does Columbia do need-based aid?

[TigersAreCool]

Does Columbia do need-based aid?

In addition to butlers/hamiltons they do also offer "need-based" aid that I have seen sometimes exceed butlers. I've seen a lot of speculation that their "need-based" aid also depends on your stats and is not strictly need-based like HYS which I think is probably true.

Theoretically, I should get the max amount of need-based aid, but who knows how much that is? My stats are just barely at/above their medians so I'm not sure if they'd take that into consideration.

[cavalier1138]

I know these are the only two offers you're considering, but what were your other offers in the T13? And have you tried negotiating yet?

I agree that Columbia is better for your goals than Georgetown, but based on your description, I'm relatively sure that you have a better option.

[nixy]

Does Columbia do need-based aid?

In addition to butlers/hamiltons they do also offer "need-based" aid that I have seen sometimes exceed butlers. I've seen a lot of speculation that their "need-based" aid also depends on your stats and is not strictly need-based like HYS which I think is probably true.

Theoretically, I should get the max amount of need-based aid, but who knows how much that is? My stats are just barely at/above their medians so I'm not sure if they'd take that into consideration.

Just curious how much need-based turns out to be, because their financial aid page states, “All need-based grant packages require a loan component, comprised of federal loans for U.S. students and eligible noncitizens, and private educational loans for international students.” So it might be a lot closer to ticket than GULC (but of course it might not!).

[TigersAreCool]

I know these are the only two offers you're considering, but what were your other offers in the T13? And have you tried negotiating yet?

I agree that Columbia is better for your goals than Georgetown, but based on your description, I'm relatively sure that you have a better option.

I got $.5 at both UCLA & Cornell; those are the only other offers. Not sure how I completely struck out at the rest of the T14(WL at pretty much every school despite 3 strong Why X's, it's been a weird cycle), but it's hard for me to complain.

[BrainsyK]

I got 40k in need-based aid from Columbia (I ED'ed so it had to be need-based). Family income was near/slightly below poverty line and low six figures in assets? I had to take out a loan to show that I was vaguely financially capable of actually attending (even then, like <50% of tuition). I've seen up to $60k in need-based aid and have heard of more than $90k.

[VirginiaFan]

For the love of all that is holy, go to GULC. If you're median, you'll probably get biglaw. If you're top of the class, you'll probably get COA clerkship. The same is true at Columbia. The only thing you're getting for the extra 100k+ at Columbia is an insurance policy for if you're in the bottom of your class (but not the bottom 10%, because that's hard to get biglaw from even at Columbia). I just don't think the insurance policy is worth that much, especially since biglaw sucks and without debt you can do something cooler.

[TigersAreCool]

I got 40k in need-based aid from Columbia (I ED'ed so it had to be need-based). Family income was near/slightly below poverty line and low six figures in assets? I had to take out a loan to show that I was vaguely financially capable of actually attending (even then, like <50% of tuition). I've seen up to $60k in need-based aid and have heard of more than $90k.

My family is below the poverty line & assets are essentially 0; given that + the GULC offer I'm estimating somewhere around the higher end of need-based aid. If they offered me ~120k+ the decision would be really easy but I'm not sure how realistic that is..

[crazywafflez]

I'd take GULC also you get something from C. Can see arguments for C, but I personally would take GULC.

[Access]

I know these are the only two offers you're considering, but what were your other offers in the T13? And have you tried negotiating yet?

I agree that Columbia is better for your goals than Georgetown, but based on your description, I'm relatively sure that you have a better option.

I got $.5 at both UCLA & Cornell; those are the only other offers. Not sure how I completely struck out at the rest of the T14(WL at pretty much every school despite 3 strong Why X's, it's been a weird cycle), but it's hard for me to complain.

Go to Cornell. Better option than paying full at CLS or flipping a coin on GULC.

Also, while it's a few years ago, I also had a weird cycle. Got into 2 T14s, but rejected from GULC. These things are more random than people think.

[CanadianWolf]

Really depends upon the actual numbers once you have negotiated with all four options.

[TigersAreCool]

Really depends upon the actual numbers once you have negotiated with all four options.

At what $ would you go to Columbia over a GULC full ride?

[CanadianWolf]

Depends upon your personal financial situation.

I assume that your "full ride" at Georgetown is a full tuition scholarship.

[Access]

Depends upon your personal financial situation.

I assume that your "full ride" at Georgetown is a full tuition scholarship.

OP says barely short of. That means that by 3L might be a 15k tuition bill. Plus 3 years of living expenses. Could be looking at ~80k debt. Better than paying for Georgetown but still a risky investment imo.

[TigersAreCool]

Depends upon your personal financial situation.

I assume that your "full ride" at Georgetown is a full tuition scholarship.

OP says barely short of. That means that by 3L might be a 15k tuition bill. Plus 3 years of living expenses. Could be looking at ~80k debt. Better than paying for Georgetown but still a risky investment imo.

Right, I'm looking at ~90k debt at GULC w/ living expenses. I'm pretty much starting at $0 so any debt I accrue will have to be paid off with my future salary; I am fairly frugal and willing to stay in Biglaw for a couple of years so I'm personally comfortable with anything up to ~200k in debt as long as it's worth it.

[Access]

Depends upon your personal financial situation.

I assume that your "full ride" at Georgetown is a full tuition scholarship.

OP says barely short of. That means that by 3L might be a 15k tuition bill. Plus 3 years of living expenses. Could be looking at ~80k debt. Better than paying for Georgetown but still a risky investment imo.

Right, I'm looking at ~90k debt at GULC w/ living expenses. I'm pretty much starting at $0 so any debt I accrue will have to be paid off with my future salary; I am fairly frugal and willing to stay in Biglaw for a couple of years so I'm personally comfortable with anything up to ~200k in debt as long as it's worth it.

So obviously wait for numbers from Columbia, but what's your overall debt from Cornell? That's probably your sweet spot, they have solid biglaw numbers.

[mab9ve]

For the love of all that is holy, go to GULC. If you're median, you'll probably get biglaw. If you're top of the class, you'll probably get COA clerkship. The same is true at Columbia. The only thing you're getting for the extra 100k+ at Columbia is an insurance policy for if you're in the bottom of your class (but not the bottom 10%, because that's hard to get biglaw from even at Columbia). I just don't think the insurance policy is worth that much, especially since biglaw sucks and without debt you can do something cooler.

It’s not hard. Bottom 10% at Columbia ends up with biglaw jobs. Know plenty going to V20s in this situation (not to mention a few going to Skadden)!

[VirginiaFan]

For the love of all that is holy, go to GULC. If you're median, you'll probably get biglaw. If you're top of the class, you'll probably get COA clerkship. The same is true at Columbia. The only thing you're getting for the extra 100k+ at Columbia is an insurance policy for if you're in the bottom of your class (but not the bottom 10%, because that's hard to get biglaw from even at Columbia). I just don't think the insurance policy is worth that much, especially since biglaw sucks and without debt you can do something cooler.

It’s not hard. Bottom 10% at Columbia ends up with biglaw jobs. Know plenty going to V20s in this situation (not to mention a few going to Skadden)!

I'm not sure that a few anecdotes mean biglaw at the bottom of the class is easy. Wouldn't be shocked if the hit rate for bottom 20% at Columbia is 50% at OCI. Plus, the market may not be as insanely hot by the time OP does OCI.

[mab9ve]

For the love of all that is holy, go to GULC. If you're median, you'll probably get biglaw. If you're top of the class, you'll probably get COA clerkship. The same is true at Columbia. The only thing you're getting for the extra 100k+ at Columbia is an insurance policy for if you're in the bottom of your class (but not the bottom 10%, because that's hard to get biglaw from even at Columbia). I just don't think the insurance policy is worth that much, especially since biglaw sucks and without debt you can do something cooler.

It’s not hard. Bottom 10% at Columbia ends up with biglaw jobs. Know plenty going to V20s in this situation (not to mention a few going to Skadden)!

I'm not sure that a few anecdotes mean biglaw at the bottom of the class is easy. Wouldn't be shocked if the hit rate for bottom 20% at Columbia is 50% at OCI. Plus, the market may not be as insanely hot by the time OP does OCI.

It’s not a few anecdotes. OCI mistakenly sent out an e-mail with the 14 people who had struck out during 2L OCI. As 3Ls, every single one of them had landed a big law job. This is for the class of ‘22. At CLS, this is not uncommon, just saying.

[BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?)]

For the love of all that is holy, go to GULC. If you're median, you'll probably get biglaw. If you're top of the class, you'll probably get COA clerkship. The same is true at Columbia. The only thing you're getting for the extra 100k+ at Columbia is an insurance policy for if you're in the bottom of your class (but not the bottom 10%, because that's hard to get biglaw from even at Columbia). I just don't think the insurance policy is worth that much, especially since biglaw sucks and without debt you can do something cooler.

It’s not hard. Bottom 10% at Columbia ends up with biglaw jobs. Know plenty going to V20s in this situation (not to mention a few going to Skadden)!

I'm not sure that a few anecdotes mean biglaw at the bottom of the class is easy. Wouldn't be shocked if the hit rate for bottom 20% at Columbia is 50% at OCI. Plus, the market may not be as insanely hot by the time OP does OCI.

It’s not a few anecdotes. OCI mistakenly sent out an e-mail with the 14 people who had struck out during 2L OCI. As 3Ls, every single one of them had landed a big law job. This is for the class of ‘22. At CLS, this is not uncommon, just saying.

A friend struck out at oci and didn't find a big law job in 3L. CLS'2022. It doesn't matter but what you said isn't completely accurate. And I do agree it's not super hard to find a big law job at CLS (irrespective of your grades). Also, those 14 who struck out won't all necessarily be bottom of the class.

[Access]

People should also be aware that the 3L hiring of the last two cycles is NOT typical. There's been a huge demand and a lot of people who struck out got a second chance. Which is great for them. But in previous cycles, and presumably whenever the music stops, if you struck out at OCI that was pretty much it for biglaw, you had to spend the next two years scrambling for a smaller firm job or pretending that you really wanted public interest after all.

[VirginiaFan]

People should also be aware that the 3L hiring of the last two cycles is NOT typical. There's been a huge demand and a lot of people who struck out got a second chance. Which is great for them. But in previous cycles, and presumably whenever the music stops, if you struck out at OCI that was pretty much it for biglaw, you had to spend the next two years scrambling for a smaller firm job or pretending that you really wanted public interest after all.

Exactly. Go to GULC. You'll have the upside of a COA clerkship-->biglaw/bigfed, but eliminate the downside of six-figure debt and unemployment (however unlikely).

[CanadianWolf]

Without actual numbers from Columbia, I do not understand how posters can see this as a clear-cut decision.

If total expected debt at Georgetown is estimated to be $90,000, then debt up to double that amount should keep Columbia in consideration due to superior job placement. Nevertheless, this is a personal decision based on an individual's situation including tolerance for debt.

OP: Have you tried to negotiate better offers from UCLA & Cornell ?