Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW Forum

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
Post Reply
Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:38 pm

I narrowed my options to these two schools. Both give me 105k scholarships. My interest is not clear now but at least I know PI is not my choice as I am not a US citizen and I have to find an employer to sponsor me visa.
Here are some of my concerns:
ND:
pros:
1) lower cost
2) the faculty seems more friendly and responsive
cons:
1) location
GW:
pros:
1) location
cons:
1) higher cost
2) not sure but I saw some posts on Reddit that the career office is not responsive enough?

*As for location, on the one hand, I'm worried that ND's location is not good enough to find jobs. On the other hand, the DC market is so competitive that I'm worried that I cannot outcompete others to stay in DC. I mean, I do not have any ties in the US. If I go to GW and cannot find a job in DC, it seems difficult for me to find one in other cities.

Many thanks in advance. Any comment would be very helpful!

User avatar
cavalier1138

Moderator
Posts: 7900
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:42 am

The reality for international students is that the only somewhat-reliable path to an H1B visa is through biglaw. And neither of these schools give you a good enough chance at biglaw to make them worth the amount of debt you'd be taking on.

In your case, the location of these schools really isn't that important, because you'd primarily want to aim for NY firms from both (ND doesn't really have a "local" hiring market for biglaw, and DC biglaw is hard to get from anywhere without top grades). The other factors you listed (perception of faculty/career services) should not affect your decision.

What is your current LSAT/international grade rating?

crazywafflez

Silver
Posts: 530
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by crazywafflez » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:45 pm

Agreed with everything Cav said. I'd R&R. If you won't listen to us, Notre Dame would be my pick, but still a gamble.

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:16 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:42 am
The reality for international students is that the only somewhat-reliable path to an H1B visa is through biglaw. And neither of these schools give you a good enough chance at biglaw to make them worth the amount of debt you'd be taking on.

In your case, the location of these schools really isn't that important, because you'd primarily want to aim for NY firms from both (ND doesn't really have a "local" hiring market for biglaw, and DC biglaw is hard to get from anywhere without top grades). The other factors you listed (perception of faculty/career services) should not affect your decision.

What is your current LSAT/international grade rating?
Many thanks for your comment! I'm sorry for replying late as there is no notification of my account (don't know why....) I agreed that both schools are not good enough for international students and I just want to try to go to one school with a relatively higher chance of an H1B visa :(

As for my grade, I'm 170 and AA. I do not think I can get a better LSAT score as I had tried once. It seems that 170 is not good enough for T15. I made an early application to GULC but it deferred it and in the regular cycle it put me on the waitlist.....

Could you please give me any insights/advice about what should I do? Anyway I'm greatly confused now. Many thanks in advance!

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:32 pm

crazywafflez wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:45 pm
Agreed with everything Cav said. I'd R&R. If you won't listen to us, Notre Dame would be my pick, but still a gamble.
So sorry to reply late. I have tried to retake the LSAT however it seems that 170 is the highest score I can get...I know both schools are not a guarantee for my future plan but I still want to find one with a higher chance. :(

Many thanks for your kind reply which definitely helps me know more about the actual situation.

One more question please, as my fiance is a US citizen (it's also the big reason for me to go to US law school). So maybe H1B is not the only path for me? Under this situation, is ND is still a better choice? Thanks!

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


crazywafflez

Silver
Posts: 530
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by crazywafflez » Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:39 pm

Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:32 pm
crazywafflez wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:45 pm
Agreed with everything Cav said. I'd R&R. If you won't listen to us, Notre Dame would be my pick, but still a gamble.
So sorry to reply late. I have tried to retake the LSAT however it seems that 170 is the highest score I can get...I know both schools are not a guarantee for my future plan but I still want to find one with a higher chance. :(

Many thanks for your kind reply which definitely helps me know more about the actual situation.

One more question please, as my fiance is a US citizen (it's also the big reason for me to go to US law school). So maybe H1B is not the only path for me? Under this situation, is ND is still a better choice? Thanks!
ND is the right choice given your options.

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?)

Bronze
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:17 am

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm

Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:15 pm

crazywafflez wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:39 pm
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:32 pm
crazywafflez wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:45 pm
Agreed with everything Cav said. I'd R&R. If you won't listen to us, Notre Dame would be my pick, but still a gamble.
Thanks a lot! This is greatly helpful:D!

So sorry to reply late. I have tried to retake the LSAT however it seems that 170 is the highest score I can get...I know both schools are not a guarantee for my future plan but I still want to find one with a higher chance. :(

Many thanks for your kind reply which definitely helps me know more about the actual situation.

One more question please, as my fiance is a US citizen (it's also the big reason for me to go to US law school). So maybe H1B is not the only path for me? Under this situation, is ND is still a better choice? Thanks!
ND is the right choice given your options.

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?)

Bronze
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:17 am

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:48 am

Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D
Happy to help. I think for ndls, the latest biglaw + FC figures have been around 50 percent. They have released the stats for 2021 and those appear closer to 55 percent.

That said, as an international (if seeking h1b sponsorship, you would want to be in the top 25 percent for sure. Not all biglaw firms sponsor h1b visas. Comparing the # of jobs at 500+ lawyer shops in major markets from these two schools would be better than comparing total biglaw numbers. And it would be great if you can get the breakdown of the firm-wise offers made at these schools. That would make your job easier. I got those stats by reaching out to 2L and 3Ls at my target schools.
Language skills can help in international arbitration or in other practice areas at firms that have potential or existing clients in Latam but not enough juniors with the requisite language skills. International applicants have no other advantages. Also, if your accent is hard to comprehend, you will be in trouble.

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:22 am

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:48 am
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D
Happy to help. I think for ndls, the latest biglaw + FC figures have been around 50 percent. They have released the stats for 2021 and those appear closer to 55 percent.

That said, as an international (if seeking h1b sponsorship, you would want to be in the top 25 percent for sure. Not all biglaw firms sponsor h1b visas. Comparing the # of jobs at 500+ lawyer shops in major markets from these two schools would be better than comparing total biglaw numbers. And it would be great if you can get the breakdown of the firm-wise offers made at these schools. That would make your job easier. I got those stats by reaching out to 2L and 3Ls at my target schools.
Language skills can help in international arbitration or in other practice areas at firms that have potential or existing clients in Latam but not enough juniors with the requisite language skills. International applicants have no other advantages. Also, if your accent is hard to comprehend, you will be in trouble.
Many thanks! Your comments make a lot of sense to me! I’d try to reach out to some senior students of NDLS. I feel more confident about the school life of ND now :D

SNightHighlights

New
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:06 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by SNightHighlights » Sat May 07, 2022 3:46 pm

Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:22 am
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:48 am
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D
Happy to help. I think for ndls, the latest biglaw + FC figures have been around 50 percent. They have released the stats for 2021 and those appear closer to 55 percent.

That said, as an international (if seeking h1b sponsorship, you would want to be in the top 25 percent for sure. Not all biglaw firms sponsor h1b visas. Comparing the # of jobs at 500+ lawyer shops in major markets from these two schools would be better than comparing total biglaw numbers. And it would be great if you can get the breakdown of the firm-wise offers made at these schools. That would make your job easier. I got those stats by reaching out to 2L and 3Ls at my target schools.
Language skills can help in international arbitration or in other practice areas at firms that have potential or existing clients in Latam but not enough juniors with the requisite language skills. International applicants have no other advantages. Also, if your accent is hard to comprehend, you will be in trouble.
Many thanks! Your comments make a lot of sense to me! I’d try to reach out to some senior students of NDLS. I feel more confident about the school life of ND now :D
Not sure if I missed it, but Chicago is NDLS' "home market," with NY as a somewhat close but substantially noticeable second. You will have right around a 50/50 shot at BL/FC outcomes at ND. It rises and lowers depending on the job market. When I started at NDLS it was closer to 40%, but when I graduated it was like 50-55%. Fwiw I landed a V5 with a GPA outside of the top 1/3. It's a school where all outcomes are possible, but by no means guaranteed or even close to guaranteed. Definitely punches above its weight but it just isn't a T14 when you look at outcomes. I guess in sum, there are worse gambles you could take, especially where you need a visa, but it is a gamble. Totally anecdotal, but a classmate of mine was a very talented European who finished with great grades and had not problem getting a visa sponsorship from BL - I think he landed at a Sidley/Kirkland type firm in California or Texas or something. He was very very smart, but also had absolutely no issues getting things sorted once he had the grades locked down.
Last edited by SNightHighlights on Sat May 07, 2022 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Sat May 07, 2022 4:40 pm

SNightHighlights wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 3:46 pm
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:22 am
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:48 am
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D
Happy to help. I think for ndls, the latest biglaw + FC figures have been around 50 percent. They have released the stats for 2021 and those appear closer to 55 percent.

That said, as an international (if seeking h1b sponsorship, you would want to be in the top 25 percent for sure. Not all biglaw firms sponsor h1b visas. Comparing the # of jobs at 500+ lawyer shops in major markets from these two schools would be better than comparing total biglaw numbers. And it would be great if you can get the breakdown of the firm-wise offers made at these schools. That would make your job easier. I got those stats by reaching out to 2L and 3Ls at my target schools.
Language skills can help in international arbitration or in other practice areas at firms that have potential or existing clients in Latam but not enough juniors with the requisite language skills. International applicants have no other advantages. Also, if your accent is hard to comprehend, you will be in trouble.
Many thanks! Your comments make a lot of sense to me! I’d try to reach out to some senior students of NDLS. I feel more confident about the school life of ND now :D
Not sure if I missed it, but Chicago is NDLS' "home market," with NY as a somewhat close but substantially noticeable second. You will have right around a 50/50 shot at BL/FC outcomes at ND. It rises and lowers depending on the job market. When I started at NDLS it was closer to 40%, but when I graduated it was like 50-55%. Fwiw I landed a V5 with a GPA outside of the top 1/3. It's a school where all outcomes are possible, but by no means guaranteed or even close to guaranteed. Definitely punches above its weight but it just isn't a T14 when you look at outcomes. I guess in sum, there are worse gambles you could take, especially where you need a visa, but it is a gamble. Totally anecdotal, but a classmate of mine was a very talented European who finished with great grades and had not problem getting a visa sponsorship from BL - I think he landed at a Sidley/Kirkland type firm in California or Texas or something. He was very very smart, but also had absolutely no issues getting things sorted once he had the grades locked down.
Many thanks for comments! Your sharing definitely helps me a lot to know more about NDLS. Anyway I decided to take the gamble~Good luck with myself hahah :P Thanks again!

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


SNightHighlights

New
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:06 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by SNightHighlights » Sat May 07, 2022 6:44 pm

Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 4:40 pm
SNightHighlights wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 3:46 pm
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:22 am
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:48 am
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D
Happy to help. I think for ndls, the latest biglaw + FC figures have been around 50 percent. They have released the stats for 2021 and those appear closer to 55 percent.

That said, as an international (if seeking h1b sponsorship, you would want to be in the top 25 percent for sure. Not all biglaw firms sponsor h1b visas. Comparing the # of jobs at 500+ lawyer shops in major markets from these two schools would be better than comparing total biglaw numbers. And it would be great if you can get the breakdown of the firm-wise offers made at these schools. That would make your job easier. I got those stats by reaching out to 2L and 3Ls at my target schools.
Language skills can help in international arbitration or in other practice areas at firms that have potential or existing clients in Latam but not enough juniors with the requisite language skills. International applicants have no other advantages. Also, if your accent is hard to comprehend, you will be in trouble.
Many thanks! Your comments make a lot of sense to me! I’d try to reach out to some senior students of NDLS. I feel more confident about the school life of ND now :D
Not sure if I missed it, but Chicago is NDLS' "home market," with NY as a somewhat close but substantially noticeable second. You will have right around a 50/50 shot at BL/FC outcomes at ND. It rises and lowers depending on the job market. When I started at NDLS it was closer to 40%, but when I graduated it was like 50-55%. Fwiw I landed a V5 with a GPA outside of the top 1/3. It's a school where all outcomes are possible, but by no means guaranteed or even close to guaranteed. Definitely punches above its weight but it just isn't a T14 when you look at outcomes. I guess in sum, there are worse gambles you could take, especially where you need a visa, but it is a gamble. Totally anecdotal, but a classmate of mine was a very talented European who finished with great grades and had not problem getting a visa sponsorship from BL - I think he landed at a Sidley/Kirkland type firm in California or Texas or something. He was very very smart, but also had absolutely no issues getting things sorted once he had the grades locked down.
Many thanks for comments! Your sharing definitely helps me a lot to know more about NDLS. Anyway I decided to take the gamble~Good luck with myself hahah :P Thanks again!
Congrats and good luck! Keep in mind that if I had followed the advice I got from TLS, I would have ended up taking another year to take the LSAT, a year where the median rose two points anyways and I would have just ended up at the exact same spot minus a year. I also likely would not have landed at the V5 I ultimately did (lots of networking and coincidence). I was literally told to go retake until I could get into Chicago, basically. NDLS is a school where if you believe that you can at least be average/median, you will most likely succeed. At some point you have to do the math of risk aversion and your own ability and make a damned decision. Sometimes folks can treat a 50/50 shot as if it's the same thing as going to a TTTT with a 1/100 shot, when it's not even remotely the same situation. Factor in the scholarship (I had nearly the exact same package and the debt is very manageable) and I think you should feel very very good with this decision.

Again, best of luck!
Last edited by SNightHighlights on Sat May 07, 2022 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Broccoli_Lou

New
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:28 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by Broccoli_Lou » Sun May 08, 2022 1:47 am

SNightHighlights wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 6:44 pm
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 4:40 pm
SNightHighlights wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 3:46 pm
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:22 am
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:48 am
Broccoli_Lou wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:44 pm
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:07 pm
Ndls has had better biglaw + FC stats than GW in the last couple of years.
I (international student also) was considering both schools with a 150k scholarship but ended up going to a school (with similar biglaw stats) that offered me closer to a full scholarship. Definitely agree that either of these at 105k isn't a great option (that said when I was deciding the BL+FC numbers of these schools were 30-35 percent. Now they are 45-55 percent. This is reflective of a better economy which is again not guaranteed when you graduate).
If you marry a US citizen, things change especially if you can get a GC by the time you graduate (and indicate to firms that you don't need h1b sponsorship during oci).
Happy to discuss more if you have specific questions. I know it's not easy finding answers as an international applicant.
Many thanks for reply! Yeah the application process is definitely a lonely one for many international students. (No one knows how to choose schools, no one knows the career path…etc :( ) But it’s so lucky for me to receive many helpful and friendly comments online so at least now I have a clearer map about where I should go~

I do have a question if you’d like to talk. Is it very difficult to find a h1b sponsor for job? I mean, I know maybe in ND around Top 30% can go to BL. But does it mean international students would be more competitive and excellent? (Like they need to get top15% grades to go to BL?)

Meanwhile, is there any unique advantage for international students to outcompete others in employment market? Like they have another country’s bar, or they can speak different languages. Would these be helpful for them to find a job in BL, especially some firms having international business?

Anyway, thanks again for your kind comment and sooo nice to speak with you! :D
Happy to help. I think for ndls, the latest biglaw + FC figures have been around 50 percent. They have released the stats for 2021 and those appear closer to 55 percent.

That said, as an international (if seeking h1b sponsorship, you would want to be in the top 25 percent for sure. Not all biglaw firms sponsor h1b visas. Comparing the # of jobs at 500+ lawyer shops in major markets from these two schools would be better than comparing total biglaw numbers. And it would be great if you can get the breakdown of the firm-wise offers made at these schools. That would make your job easier. I got those stats by reaching out to 2L and 3Ls at my target schools.
Language skills can help in international arbitration or in other practice areas at firms that have potential or existing clients in Latam but not enough juniors with the requisite language skills. International applicants have no other advantages. Also, if your accent is hard to comprehend, you will be in trouble.
Many thanks! Your comments make a lot of sense to me! I’d try to reach out to some senior students of NDLS. I feel more confident about the school life of ND now :D
Not sure if I missed it, but Chicago is NDLS' "home market," with NY as a somewhat close but substantially noticeable second. You will have right around a 50/50 shot at BL/FC outcomes at ND. It rises and lowers depending on the job market. When I started at NDLS it was closer to 40%, but when I graduated it was like 50-55%. Fwiw I landed a V5 with a GPA outside of the top 1/3. It's a school where all outcomes are possible, but by no means guaranteed or even close to guaranteed. Definitely punches above its weight but it just isn't a T14 when you look at outcomes. I guess in sum, there are worse gambles you could take, especially where you need a visa, but it is a gamble. Totally anecdotal, but a classmate of mine was a very talented European who finished with great grades and had not problem getting a visa sponsorship from BL - I think he landed at a Sidley/Kirkland type firm in California or Texas or something. He was very very smart, but also had absolutely no issues getting things sorted once he had the grades locked down.
Many thanks for comments! Your sharing definitely helps me a lot to know more about NDLS. Anyway I decided to take the gamble~Good luck with myself hahah :P Thanks again!
Congrats and good luck! Keep in mind that if I had followed the advice I got from TLS, I would have ended up taking another year to take the LSAT, a year where the median rose two points anyways and I would have just ended up at the exact same spot minus a year. I also likely would not have landed at the V5 I ultimately did (lots of networking and coincidence). I was literally told to go retake until I could get into Chicago, basically. NDLS is a school where if you believe that you can at least be average/median, you will most likely succeed. At some point you have to do the math of risk aversion and your own ability and make a damned decision. Sometimes folks can treat a 50/50 shot as if it's the same thing as going to a TTTT with a 1/100 shot, when it's not even remotely the same situation. Factor in the scholarship (I had nearly the exact same package and the debt is very manageable) and I think you should feel very very good with this decision.

Again, best of luck!
Congrats and so happy to hear that you got a so admirable job! I totally agree with you! No one knows the number game would be like in the next cycle and there’s no guarantee for me to get a very competitive score. It’s time to go to the next stage of life~ :D At least now I do love Notre Dame. Everyone I met with at NDLS is so friendly and nice! I believe I won’t regret my decision.

Again, thanks for sharing! I have a clearer picture of NDLS now :lol:

User avatar
cavalier1138

Moderator
Posts: 7900
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon May 09, 2022 1:07 pm

Ok, while the OP's best option (not necessarily a "good" option, but the best for their situation) may be ND, there's a whole lot of survivorship bias informing the latest exchange:
SNightHighlights wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 6:44 pm
Keep in mind that if I had followed the advice I got from TLS, I would have ended up taking another year to take the LSAT, a year where the median rose two points anyways and I would have just ended up at the exact same spot minus a year. I also likely would not have landed at the V5 I ultimately did (lots of networking and coincidence). I was literally told to go retake until I could get into Chicago, basically. NDLS is a school where if you believe that you can at least be average/median, you will most likely succeed. At some point you have to do the math of risk aversion and your own ability and make a damned decision. Sometimes folks can treat a 50/50 shot as if it's the same thing as going to a TTTT with a 1/100 shot, when it's not even remotely the same situation. Factor in the scholarship (I had nearly the exact same package and the debt is very manageable) and I think you should feel very very good with this decision.
First, if you'd followed the advice you got here, you very well could have ended up at Northwestern or Michigan with a significant scholarship (literally no one told you that you needed to get into UC). The median did not go up 2 points everywhere between the 2017 and 2018 cycles; it went up one point at most of your target schools (and didn't move at all at several T13 schools).

Next, you're making a boatload of assumptions about your likely career trajectory if you had ended up somewhere better than ND. It's beyond ridiculous to assume that you wouldn't have been able to land a V5 job from a T13 school, especially since it sounds like your landing the current job had very little to do with being at ND in the first place. If the hiring market had taken a downturn at the wrong time, ND would have been one of the most severely affected schools. The reason people don't recommend going to a school like that for biglaw, even when it's performing well (and no, it was never a "50/50" shot at biglaw from ND), is that those schools are the ones that see biglaw offers get cut in half (or worse) during a bad market.

But the most dangerous advice you're giving here is the notion that performing at median at ND is (1) sufficient to guarantee biglaw and (2) can be guaranteed outcome so long as the student "believes" in themselves. You're dismissing half of your classmates as either complete dunces or people who just didn't believe hard enough, and if you step back for a moment, you'll recognize how insulting and inaccurate that statement is. Congratulations on your success, but as you pointed out, your current job was the result of networking and coincidence. Your classmates who missed out on those coincidences didn't somehow deserve a biglaw job less than you. And since the OP needs biglaw to stay in the country, they don't have the option of not getting lucky.

SNightHighlights

New
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:06 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by SNightHighlights » Mon May 09, 2022 1:30 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 1:07 pm
Ok, while the OP's best option (not necessarily a "good" option, but the best for their situation) may be ND, there's a whole lot of survivorship bias informing the latest exchange:
SNightHighlights wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 6:44 pm
Keep in mind that if I had followed the advice I got from TLS, I would have ended up taking another year to take the LSAT, a year where the median rose two points anyways and I would have just ended up at the exact same spot minus a year. I also likely would not have landed at the V5 I ultimately did (lots of networking and coincidence). I was literally told to go retake until I could get into Chicago, basically. NDLS is a school where if you believe that you can at least be average/median, you will most likely succeed. At some point you have to do the math of risk aversion and your own ability and make a damned decision. Sometimes folks can treat a 50/50 shot as if it's the same thing as going to a TTTT with a 1/100 shot, when it's not even remotely the same situation. Factor in the scholarship (I had nearly the exact same package and the debt is very manageable) and I think you should feel very very good with this decision.
First, if you'd followed the advice you got here, you very well could have ended up at Northwestern or Michigan with a significant scholarship (literally no one told you that you needed to get into UC). The median did not go up 2 points everywhere between the 2017 and 2018 cycles; it went up one point at most of your target schools (and didn't move at all at several T13 schools).

Next, you're making a boatload of assumptions about your likely career trajectory if you had ended up somewhere better than ND. It's beyond ridiculous to assume that you wouldn't have been able to land a V5 job from a T13 school, especially since it sounds like your landing the current job had very little to do with being at ND in the first place. If the hiring market had taken a downturn at the wrong time, ND would have been one of the most severely affected schools. The reason people don't recommend going to a school like that for biglaw, even when it's performing well (and no, it was never a "50/50" shot at biglaw from ND), is that those schools are the ones that see biglaw offers get cut in half (or worse) during a bad market.

But the most dangerous advice you're giving here is the notion that performing at median at ND is (1) sufficient to guarantee biglaw and (2) can be guaranteed outcome so long as the student "believes" in themselves. You're dismissing half of your classmates as either complete dunces or people who just didn't believe hard enough, and if you step back for a moment, you'll recognize how insulting and inaccurate that statement is. Congratulations on your success, but as you pointed out, your current job was the result of networking and coincidence. Your classmates who missed out on those coincidences didn't somehow deserve a biglaw job less than you. And since the OP needs biglaw to stay in the country, they don't have the option of not getting lucky.
Yeah no, my hiring was directly a result of going to ND. The partner that hires for my firm specifically looks to maintain a pipeline with the school. Regardless, I commend you for reinforcing the TLS brand, but this post is precisely why TLS should be a component but not a primary driver behind an application process. Performing at the median at ND is absolutely sufficient to enable Biglaw, I would stop short at guarantee. I am absolutely not dismissing my classmates as dunces or "non-believers" - they either were legitimately not able to perform on the curve (which has no implication for actual intelligence but is a material risk), or were more interested in government/PI.

However, looking again at the outcomes of my class, 104/200 people in my graduating class obtained a job for a 100+ attorney firm or a Federal Clerkship. In the same year, Michigan sent 194/332 to firms with 100+ attorneys. One caveat that should be noted is that ND likely sends fewer attorneys to firms with 500+ lawyers, a definite advantage of going to the T14, where the schools undeniably offer a higher chance at obtaining a Vault 100 firm as your employment outcome. That said, ND has been sending between 40-50% of classes to Biglaw/FC for 3-5 years now. We need to acknowledge that as a trend. I think that your point on the economic downturn is a valid one, and should be factored in to a risk calculation. Do you want to pay with 1-2 years time and potentially $100,000 more dollars for a 10-30% higher chance at Biglaw (GLC is much different than Harvard) and a more robust OCI in the event of a downturn? That should be left to risk tolerance in the individual applicant. All things equal, the answer is obvious, but in the event where ND has offered 100k+ and a T14 has offer $0, it's a compelling question without a clear answer in my eyes.

This is all a factor of (1) risk tolerance, and (2) net cost after scholarship. My only point is that Notre Dame with a 105k scholarship presents a sufficient package of "risk" for this applicant, as it did me. I admit that this path for an international applicant carries more material risk with it than for a domestic applicant, but it does not present an impossible path or an intolerable risk in my view.

mandrewsf

New
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:01 pm

Re: Notre Dame (NDLS) vs GW

Post by mandrewsf » Sat May 14, 2022 7:43 am

Cav I think you're too negative on OP's prospects. He can get an employment authorization through his US citizen spouse immediately after he gets married so he has no need for a firm sponsorship and he's guaranteed a green card in a few years. Firms know this. This factor substantially lowers his risk.

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


Post Reply

Return to “Choosing a Law School”