Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC Forum

[Anonymous User]

i do think it does make more sense to say "YS" rather than "HYS". but i'm not sure what the next bracket would be in that case. HCCN? HCCNP?

As a CLS grad I humbly suggest “YS” and “t5”

[Anonymous User]

HUGE blow to KBJ. I expect she'll withdraw her nomination and resign from the bench in shame.

[Anonymous User]

As an HLS grad I think t5/t6 is becoming more of a thing than HYS as well, with YS being the elite subgroup; but I think all t13 groupings are somewhat silly since its all more of a matter of degree than hard cutoffs when it comes to comparing schools.

I will say, I think H is suffering in part from its huge size but also perhaps what I perceive to be some self-selection where a small but not insignificant minority of people attend without wanting to take a traditional law school path (e.g. consulting, business, politics, non-PD or legal aid PI). Perhaps this is the case at other places but I got the sense that there were a good deal of people that had no interest in being lawyers.

As for clerkships, I think we are getting our butts kicked by Chicago and I don't know why; I've heard they have lots more institutional resources and the school really goes to bat for applicants whereas H, in my experience, was more DIY except for maybe the tippy top students (I got an interview with a semi-feeder but was never pulled aside by the school to apply for certain judges or given any extra help other than having materials reviewed lol).

[Anonymous User]

Within the T14, NYU is still much better at placing into "better" BL firms, clerkships, and academia than Penn

How do you judge this? More selective BL firms, more 2/9/DC appellate clerkships? Are there statistics you're aware of for both of these schools?

I think Y, S, Chi, H are the top tier; NYU, Columbia, Penn are the next tier. I have always considered Penn to to be the best outside of the "T6" which is a New York-centric metric that is ill fitting. I think of Virginia, Berkeley, Michigan, Duke / Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown as the 3rd and 4th tiers of the T-14.

No one cares what I think anyway

[Anonymous User]

I actually think over the next couple of decades we're likely to see Chicago cement itself in the top 3 or at least consistently top 4. It's clearly better than CLS and NYU. It makes sense too, best schools on the east coast, west coast, Midwest/rest.

But Penn ahead of NYU makes no sense. Penn is a biglaw factory just like the rest, and its high stats are a function of proximity to NYC. Maybe NYU loses out because of some COA metrics?

That makes sense - Philly's still a lot cheaper than NYC, which could relate to different debt outcomes.

I agree. I have a feeling that schools will adjust to the new factors in the ranking methodology and we'll see a return to normal throughout the rankings next year. I think the New York schools in particular are going to need to find a way to make the schools more affordable.

Within the T14, NYU is still much better at placing into "better" BL firms, clerkships, and academia than Penn; the COA must be the difference maker here. The interesting debate, however, is whether Chicago is actually better than Harvard at this point, which it very well might be.

The NYC schools, for the most part, do not have the financial resources or the willpower to lower costs. I’m at one of the richer NYC schools and it’s shocking how cheap/skimpy the school is with everything (the facilities are also in rough shape, and strained to the breaking point). It must be some combination of VHCOL environment and the extremely bloated administrative staff here.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't be shocked if this ends up influencing applicants. Right or wrong, a lot of them obsess over USNWR. And it's hard to argue this switch-up isn't deserved. Chicago has been boat-racing Harvard in the clerkship game for years now.

[Anonymous User]

I think this has to do with including graduate debt in the methodology, which hurts HLS because it doesn't offer merit aid, and it doesn't have as rich a student body as YS. HLS is gonna have to do something, because it relies on a lot of people turning down 1/2 scholarships at Chicago and Columbia for nothing at Harvard. This won't be sustainable if it is ranked below Chicago lol.

[Anonymous User]

I think of Virginia, Berkeley, Michigan, Duke / Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown as the 3rd and 4th tiers of the T-14.

No one cares what I think anyway

UVA and Duke maybe, but hard to argue that Berkeley and Michigan are better than Cornell and Northwestern when the latter have better employment outcomes. Also not sure why GULC is still considered a T14.

[Anonymous User]

The loans i took out for UChicago finally worth it

[Anonymous User]

I think this has to do with including graduate debt in the methodology, which hurts HLS because it doesn't offer merit aid, and it doesn't have as rich a student body as YS. HLS is gonna have to do something, because it relies on a lot of people turning down 1/2 scholarships at Chicago and Columbia for nothing at Harvard. This won't be sustainable if it is ranked below Chicago lol.

Are there any stats out there on relative wealth? Or is it just something that people infer from the scholarship/grant stats and the types of jobs (BL vs. PI) that people select into?

[Anonymous User]

I think this has to do with including graduate debt in the methodology, which hurts HLS because it doesn't offer merit aid, and it doesn't have as rich a student body as YS. HLS is gonna have to do something, because it relies on a lot of people turning down 1/2 scholarships at Chicago and Columbia for nothing at Harvard. This won't be sustainable if it is ranked below Chicago lol.

Are there any stats out there on relative wealth? Or is it just something that people infer from the scholarship/grant stats and the types of jobs (BL vs. PI) that people select into?

Also curious about stats (for all schools tbh) but it's pretty easy to extrapolate from just class size.

[nealric]

It's all noise. If the rankings were the same every year, nobody would buy the silly magazine.

With very limited exceptions (such as new schools like UC Irvine), the fundamental status of the schools in the pecking order have not changed in a generation. They would be the same even if US News had never published rankings.

[Saami]

To think I almost turned down the Hamilton to attend Harvard back in 2018.

[Anonymous User]

I think of Virginia, Berkeley, Michigan, Duke / Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown as the 3rd and 4th tiers of the T-14.

No one cares what I think anyway

UVA and Duke maybe, but hard to argue that Berkeley and Michigan are better than Cornell and Northwestern when the latter have better employment outcomes. Also not sure why GULC is still considered a T14.

The arbitrary T14 grouping exists because of Georgetown. Harvard and Georgetown are the bookends of the top schools. Harvard and Georgetown are the two largest law schools in the US and too many of their graduates are in top positions across the legal industry, judiciary, politics, public interest, media, etc. USNWR must shape its ranking criteria to match reality or its rankings will be left in the dustbin of rankings history.

[Anonymous User]

I think of Virginia, Berkeley, Michigan, Duke / Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown as the 3rd and 4th tiers of the T-14.

No one cares what I think anyway

UVA and Duke maybe, but hard to argue that Berkeley and Michigan are better than Cornell and Northwestern when the latter have better employment outcomes. Also not sure why GULC is still considered a T14.

The arbitrary T14 grouping exists because of Georgetown. Harvard and Georgetown are the bookends of the top schools. Harvard and Georgetown are the two largest law schools in the US and too many of their graduates are in top positions across the legal industry, judiciary, politics, public interest, media, etc. USNWR must shape its ranking criteria to match reality or its rankings will be left in the dustbin of rankings history.

As someone who went to Georgetown (that being said, I don't know what it's like at other third/fourth tier T14 schools), I think Georgetown is definitely in its own, bottom tier in the T14. Good school, but their placement is sad in comparison to others.

[Anonymous User]

I think this has to do with including graduate debt in the methodology, which hurts HLS because it doesn't offer merit aid, and it doesn't have as rich a student body as YS. HLS is gonna have to do something, because it relies on a lot of people turning down 1/2 scholarships at Chicago and Columbia for nothing at Harvard. This won't be sustainable if it is ranked below Chicago lol.

Are there any stats out there on relative wealth? Or is it just something that people infer from the scholarship/grant stats and the types of jobs (BL vs. PI) that people select into?

Can’t speak for the other schools, but as an S grad, S is quite generous with need based aid. I did the sums, and only one other school I got into would have cost less than S to attend for me, and that school offered me a full ride.

[Anonymous User]

I think of Virginia, Berkeley, Michigan, Duke / Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown as the 3rd and 4th tiers of the T-14.

No one cares what I think anyway

UVA and Duke maybe, but hard to argue that Berkeley and Michigan are better than Cornell and Northwestern when the latter have better employment outcomes. Also not sure why GULC is still considered a T14.

The arbitrary T14 grouping exists because of Georgetown. Harvard and Georgetown are the bookends of the top schools. Harvard and Georgetown are the two largest law schools in the US and too many of their graduates are in top positions across the legal industry, judiciary, politics, public interest, media, etc. USNWR must shape its ranking criteria to match reality or its rankings will be left in the dustbin of rankings history.

As someone who went to Georgetown (that being said, I don't know what it's like at other third/fourth tier T14 schools), I think Georgetown is definitely in its own, bottom tier in the T14. Good school, but their placement is sad in comparison to others.

Yeah if there's something called a T14, Georgetown is there. It's better than Texas or UCLA or whoever else is the flavor of the month. If they trimmed the class size it would even be a proper T14

[Anonymous User]

I think this has to do with including graduate debt in the methodology, which hurts HLS because it doesn't offer merit aid, and it doesn't have as rich a student body as YS. HLS is gonna have to do something, because it relies on a lot of people turning down 1/2 scholarships at Chicago and Columbia for nothing at Harvard. This won't be sustainable if it is ranked below Chicago lol.

Are there any stats out there on relative wealth? Or is it just something that people infer from the scholarship/grant stats and the types of jobs (BL vs. PI) that people select into?

Also curious about stats (for all schools tbh) but it's pretty easy to extrapolate from just class size.

https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/t ... pe=schools

I think this data might support the argument? Harvard has a higher percentage of students takings loans than Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

While people are commenting on the merits of designating a "T14," I always viewed it as the list of truly national law schools. You can get to pretty much anywhere from a T14 (GULC included) with little effort and relatively good grades (obviously that threshold varies by school). That's harder to say about even slightly lower ranked schools like UCLA, USC, UT, and Vandy.

[Anonymous User]

Columbia needs to be investigated for their ranking inflation

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/17/us/c ... -rank.html

[Anonymous User]

While people are commenting on the merits of designating a "T14," I always viewed it as the list of truly national law schools. You can get to pretty much anywhere from a T14 (GULC included) with little effort and relatively good grades (obviously that threshold varies by school). That's harder to say about even slightly lower ranked schools like UCLA, USC, UT, and Vandy.

If you define it as "can get biglaw in most major markets, good grades depending on the school threshold" then idk by that metric any school in national. Just adjust the threshold.

Per LST, Vanderbilt placed 14% in NY. Is that so far off from Georgetown 24%?

[T3TON]

I think this has to do with including graduate debt in the methodology, which hurts HLS because it doesn't offer merit aid, and it doesn't have as rich a student body as YS. HLS is gonna have to do something, because it relies on a lot of people turning down 1/2 scholarships at Chicago and Columbia for nothing at Harvard. This won't be sustainable if it is ranked below Chicago lol.

There may be a simpler explanation. A huge part ofUSNWR rankings is expenditures / student (https://www.businessinsider.com/why-doe ... o-1-2016-3). Yale, Stanford, and Chicago have much smaller student bodies. With Harvard's much larger size, it may struggle to keep up.

[cavalier1138]

It's all noise. If the rankings were the same every year, nobody would buy the silly magazine.

With very limited exceptions (such as new schools like UC Irvine), the fundamental status of the schools in the pecking order have not changed in a generation. They would be the same even if US News had never published rankings.

*looks up from burning worthless NYU degree and filing for unemployment*

Say what?

[tlsguy2020]

Has there ever been a meaningful difference between attending Harvard and Columbia for the majority of students that get just graduate and get jobs at New York biglaw firms? I understand there’s a difference for the tippy-top feeder clerk types. Not making a statement, genuinely asking – I didn’t attend either and don’t work in New York. For what it’s worth, I’m not sure that my West Coast firm really distinguishes between the two.

[talons2250]

Has there ever been a meaningful difference between attending Harvard and Columbia for the majority of students that get just graduate and get jobs at New York biglaw firms? I understand there’s a difference for the tippy-top feeder clerk types. Not making a statement, genuinely asking – I didn’t attend either and don’t work in New York. For what it’s worth, I’m not sure that my West Coast firm really distinguishes between the two.

There is no meaningful difference between attending Harvard and Columbia for the majority of students. People say that Harvard could be better for the top 10% and bottom 10% of the Harvard class, although even that might not be true.