University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

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palmsprings1

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University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by palmsprings1 » Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm

Hello all,

I was looking for some advice, possibly some that doesn't include "take the LSAT again" if possible :) I got accepted into University of San Francisco and McGeorge School of Law so far. I am waiting to hear back from Santa Clara University.

My goal is to work in the civil side of things in the Bay Area. My LSAT was 151 and GPA 3.42.

I am looking at a pretty big debt hole at both my accepted options: USF is offering me $25,000K first year, nothing second and third years, while McGeorge is offering me $13,500 for all three years given I finish in the top 50% of my class years 1 and 2. Tuition is cheaper at USF, so the difference is about $16,000 cheaper for McGeorge, although cost of living is more expensive in the city.

I have connections and a good-size firm I can probably work at following graduation, so employment prospects isn't the biggest issue.

The bar passage data for all three options shows Santa Clara as a better option, McGeorge second, USF third, although obviously none of them are as good as Stanford or Berkeley.

Are there any real differences between these schools? Santa Clara is ranked 121 I believe, McGeorge 141, and USF somewhere between 147-150.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks for all you do!

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cavalier1138

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu May 27, 2021 9:10 am

palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm
I was looking for some advice, possibly some that doesn't include "take the LSAT again" if possible
My guess is that you started with this because you know full well that you should retake.
palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm
I am looking at a pretty big debt hole at both my accepted options
Then don't go. These are scams, not law schools.
palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm
The bar passage data for all three options shows Santa Clara as a better option, McGeorge second, USF third, although obviously none of them are as good as Stanford or Berkeley.
Bar passage data is really not an important stat for you, but it should be a warning sign that these schools take on so many students they know are statistically unlikely to pass. Job stats are infinitely more important, and these schools offer you less than a coin-flip chance at working as a practicing lawyer after graduation (in a good hiring market).

If you want to be a lawyer, then none of these schools are good choices, period. If you don't care whether you become a lawyer, then don't go to law school at all. But even then, you would still only want to go to one of these places with a full scholarship and the knowledge that you were likely wasting three years of your life.

Fireworks2016

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by Fireworks2016 » Thu May 27, 2021 11:20 am

palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm

[T]ake the LSAT again

palmsprings1

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by palmsprings1 » Thu May 27, 2021 11:56 am

palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm
The bar passage data for all three options shows Santa Clara as a better option, McGeorge second, USF third, although obviously none of them are as good as Stanford or Berkeley.
Bar passage data is really not an important stat for you, but it should be a warning sign that these schools take on so many students they know are statistically unlikely to pass. Job stats are infinitely more important, and these schools offer you less than a coin-flip chance at working as a practicing lawyer after graduation (in a good hiring market).

[/quote]

I'm curious what the general consensus regarding how accurate job stats are? From my understanding, they rely on graduating students who chose to report that data. The last thing I want to do is respond to an email from my undergraduate alma mater.

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cavalier1138

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu May 27, 2021 4:41 pm

palmsprings1 wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 11:56 am
I'm curious what the general consensus regarding how accurate job stats are? From my understanding, they rely on graduating students who chose to report that data. The last thing I want to do is respond to an email from my undergraduate alma mater.
It's considered very accurate. You can also see how many students don't report, and the numbers are usually relatively low. You can also generally assume that students who don't report did not have good outcomes.

You're putting a lot of energy into justifying why bad schools might really be not-quite-as-bad. It's a lot easier to just accept that they're bad and focus on what you need to do to achieve your goals (i.e. not going to a bad school).

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Hakki

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by Hakki » Thu May 27, 2021 4:53 pm

palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm
I have connections and a good-size firm I can probably work at following graduation, so employment prospects isn't the biggest issue.
You need to be 100% sure you can work somewhere before you even think of saying employment prospects aren't a concern. Has someone explicitly told you, "If you go to law school, you can work with me," is that credible enough to gamble your entire career on and not just them being friendly, and is that person 100% going to be in the same position of power to give you that job 3-4+ years from now when you graduate law school?

Having family friends in high places doesn't mean they all want to give you jobs, with no concern for what your law school and grades are. It's a lot easier for Nepotistic Partner to explain to the rest of his firm why they should hire a Berkeley grad than a McGeorge grad at the bottom of their class.

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Prudent_Jurist

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by Prudent_Jurist » Fri May 28, 2021 11:58 am

Even if you want to go to one of these schools, which is not a wrong decision if you know what you're doing, you need to retake and reapply.

Take McGeorge, for example. If you want to practice in Stockton, Modesto, Fresno, Bakersfield, etc., it's actually not a bad choice. Quick anecdote: a mid-size (80-ish attorney) firm I know in one of these places hired a McGeorge grad with geographic ties over a Berkeley grad with no geographic ties. Firms can smell a flight risk from a mile away. Sometimes the better the school you went to, the less viable you'll be in a non-major market comprised of small- and mid-size firms.

If you've got solid geographic ties, you've got a great chance at getting a job. In fact, there's been a shortage of new attorneys in the Central Valley in recent years despite a plethora of jobs to fill https://thebusinessjournal.com/number-o ... ley-state/. But if you want to take your McGeorge degree and work in the Bay Area or LA, it is overwhelmingly likely to not go well for you unless somehow your connection is just that solid.

If you come out of any of these schools with $100-200k in debt, you're going to suffer. The jobs you'll get will lock you into debt for 10-15+ years. That means you need to maximally minimize debt. That means you need the largest scholarship possible which means you need the best LSAT score you can achieve. And at that point, you'll be able to get a much better scholarship at a better school anyway (e.g., a non-contingent full ride).

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by crazywafflez » Fri May 28, 2021 12:13 pm

palmsprings1 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:23 pm
Hello all,

I was looking for some advice, possibly some that doesn't include "take the LSAT again" if possible :) I got accepted into University of San Francisco and McGeorge School of Law so far. I am waiting to hear back from Santa Clara University.

My goal is to work in the civil side of things in the Bay Area. My LSAT was 151 and GPA 3.42.

I am looking at a pretty big debt hole at both my accepted options: USF is offering me $25,000K first year, nothing second and third years, while McGeorge is offering me $13,500 for all three years given I finish in the top 50% of my class years 1 and 2. Tuition is cheaper at USF, so the difference is about $16,000 cheaper for McGeorge, although cost of living is more expensive in the city.

I have connections and a good-size firm I can probably work at following graduation, so employment prospects isn't the biggest issue.

The bar passage data for all three options shows Santa Clara as a better option, McGeorge second, USF third, although obviously none of them are as good as Stanford or Berkeley.

Are there any real differences between these schools? Santa Clara is ranked 121 I believe, McGeorge 141, and USF somewhere between 147-150.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks for all you do!
These schools are all the same caliber (I think), but you really should only go to them if you get a full scholarship. They are not putting enough folks into legal jobs. McGeorge for free isn't the worst thing in the world- but it really needs to be completely free. Same for all the above. If you can, I would really urge you to retake and reapply- I'm not saying you need to go to USC or UCD, but you really should be aiming to get like a 154 on the LSAT so that you can go to McGeorge, USF or Santa Clara free. If you can get a 151 I sincerely think you can get a 154- I think you could pull yourself up to a 158 even- I'm not always in the camp of study and retake, as it is pretty tough for some folks to go from a 158 after studying 3 months full time to a 169, but I absolutely believe you can get your score up a couple points and go to somewhere like McGeorge for free, which isn't the worst thing in the world.

CanadianWolf

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Re: University of San Francisco, McGeorge or Santa Clara?

Post by CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:48 am

Don't do it.

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