WashU vs UIUC vs Iowa vs Wisc Forum

[fromthenorth_51]

WashU: 100k COA
UIUC: 10k COA
Iowa: 0k COA
Wisconsin: 10k COA

Goals: From Milwaukee and looking to stay in the Midwest (preferably STL, KC, MKE, or CHI). Open to all types of employment but would like to be able to service my debt. I would prefer to work in a firm but I am not opposed to PI or Gov't work by any means.

I am leaning towards WashU with the intention of starting a career in STL or KC. I am, however, seriously considering UIUC. It seems like I could reach my goals from UIUC but I think I would be much happier in STL at WashU. Just trying to determine if 100k of debt is worth the greater geographic flexibility and slightly better large/midsized firm placement.

Let me know what y'all think.

[JamezPhoenix]

First of all, congrats!
Secondly, it depends on what is more important to you, low debt or highest likelihood of BL job. UIUC serves the first at the expense of the second. If you go to UIUC know that you have to be in the top 25-15% of the class to have a reasonable shot at BL and that it is highly unlikely that you will be. But the school has good employment outcomes overall and with virtually no debt worries you have a lot of B tier options.
If you want to practice in STL, go to WUSTL. If you want a realistic (Top 40%) shot at BL, go to WUSTL.
For government jobs, Chicago and Northwestern are going to dominate the field so you suffer from going to the third best school in the state.

The 2019 graduates from UIUC placed 32/122 in BL, 16/122 in Gov't, and only 2 in public interest. For WUSTL the numbers are 98/235 BL, 28/235 Gov, 11 in public interest. For what it's worth, WUSTL sent 25 people to federal clerkships to UIUC's 10. and State clerkships 10-3.
I would choose WUSTL, but I am not particularly debt averse. I think you have good options overall though so again, congrats!

[crazywafflez]

I would limit this down to U of Wis and WashU. I heavily lean towards Wisconsin- cause you would be happy ending up there (no bar, so that's a cool benefit), and it places really well throughout the state. Obviously, going there would nix STL and KC.
WashU will get you those places, but it may not get you biglaw- and I just wouldn't go into that much debt for washU if I had that option at Wisconsin for a goal I was happy with. WashU is a great choice in a good economy, and I do think this level of debt is acceptable for WashU (albeit, a bit above what I would want); but when you have an option for pretty cheap that is exactly one of the outcomes you'd like, I would take it. I'd also approach Wisconsin and ask for more money- you've got a fullride to Iowa and Illinois- tell them you're from the state and want to be there, but you'd need the price to be equal.
I don't think WashU is a bad choice here, but I think Wisconsin is a great option here.

[CanadianWolf]

Eliminate WUSTL if they are unwilling to offer more scholarship money. Given your career goals, debt free should be priority #1.

[fromthenorth_51]

Eliminate WUSTL if they are unwilling to offer more scholarship money. Given your career goals, debt free should be priority #1.

Thank you for the advice, I think it's sound.

Would you consider any career goals from WashU with 100k debt load reasonable? I could see it argued both ways but I'm not sure that simply saying 'I want big law' changes the equation.

[CanadianWolf]

Eliminate WUSTL if they are unwilling to offer more scholarship money. Given your career goals, debt free should be priority #1.

Thank you for the advice, I think it's sound.

Would you consider any career goals from WashU with 100k debt load reasonable? I could see it argued both ways but I'm not sure that simply saying 'I want big law' changes the equation.

No--because you have other solid, very affordable options.

[Sackboy]

Are these COA numbers including living arrangements? Just want to make sure. Not everyone does, despite it being cost of attendance.

Second question is what kind of legal work do you want to do? I get that you'll take any kind, but if there something you'd really prefer to do? If you're going to say from the start you want to be a local prosecutor, my answer is going to be a lot different than if you say you really want to start at a mid- to large-sized firm.

[fromthenorth_51]

Are these COA numbers including living arrangements? Just want to make sure. Not everyone does, despite it being cost of attendance.

Second question is what kind of legal work do you want to do? I get that you'll take any kind, but if there something you'd really prefer to do? If you're going to say from the start you want to be a local prosecutor, my answer is going to be a lot different than if you say you really want to start at a mid- to large-sized firm.

I’ve included cost of living in my calculation as well as accrued interest on the loans. The only thing that could change this number is summer employment earnings.

I really think I would prefer to work in a firm but I’m not overly concerned with it being a V100 or prestigious firm. Again, I’d like to add in that if, for some reason, I strike out at landing a firm job in one of my desired cities, I would be very open to local/state gov’t work.

[ChosenOneNow]

Personally, I would recommend Iowa. A free law degree from a strong Midwest regional school is a great accomplishment. The fact that you are not big law or bust, and you must be at the top of their admitted students to receive a scholarship offer of that caliber from them, means that you would be highly competitive there. Moreover, Iowa places well in the Midwest. Depending upon how well you do academically, you should be able to obtain a big law position in Chicago.

I don't think UIUC is better than Iowa. You will still need to be in the top ten to twenty percent of your class there to obtain a big law position. Moreover, Champaign is very similar to Iowa City. It is a college town, and it is not very close to Chicago. The drive from Champaign to Chicago is 135 miles. The drive from Iowa City to Chicago is 222 miles. As others have said, I would rule out WashU. I don't think it's worth $90 to $100k more of student loans and interest than Iowa and UIUC. I don't know very much about Wisconsin. But, to my knowledge both Iowa and UIUC place better than Wisconsin.

[Sackboy]

Personally, I would recommend Iowa. A free law degree from a strong Midwest regional school is a great accomplishment. The fact that you are not big law or bust, and you must be at the top of their admitted students to receive a scholarship offer of that caliber from them, means that you would be highly competitive there. Moreover, Iowa places well in the Midwest. Depending upon how well you do academically, you should be able to obtain a big law position in Chicago.

I don't think UIUC is better than Iowa. You will still need to be in the top ten to twenty percent of your class there to obtain a big law position. Moreover, Champaign is very similar to Iowa City. It is a college town, and it is not very close to Chicago. The drive from Champaign to Chicago is 135 miles. The drive from Iowa City to Chicago is 222 miles. As others have said, I would rule out WashU. I don't think it's worth $90 to $100k more of student loans and interest than Iowa and UIUC. I don't know very much about Wisconsin. But, to my knowledge both Iowa and UIUC place better than Wisconsin.

OP shouldn't be worried about overall placement with this bunch of state schools, assuming we've eliminated WashU due to the debt load. OP is looking to be in a major midwest city, and Iowa has none that interest OP. So, why would OP go to a school that primarily places in a state OP doesn't want to live in? Iowa's placement is great, but it places 10% of grads in Illinois. They're probably all getting Chicago biglaw or maybe on the IL side of the Quad Cities. Meanwhile, Illinois places 60% of its grads in Illinois. A good chunk of those are getting Chicago biglaw, but I bet a lot of them are also getting other Chicago gigs, not landing in Cedar Rapids, IA or Ames, IA. I think the same analysis applies to Wisconsin and MKE. If OP had also said they're really interested in Des Moines, I'd give Iowa some more weight here.

[ChosenOneNow]

Personally, I would recommend Iowa. A free law degree from a strong Midwest regional school is a great accomplishment. The fact that you are not big law or bust, and you must be at the top of their admitted students to receive a scholarship offer of that caliber from them, means that you would be highly competitive there. Moreover, Iowa places well in the Midwest. Depending upon how well you do academically, you should be able to obtain a big law position in Chicago.

I don't think UIUC is better than Iowa. You will still need to be in the top ten to twenty percent of your class there to obtain a big law position. Moreover, Champaign is very similar to Iowa City. It is a college town, and it is not very close to Chicago. The drive from Champaign to Chicago is 135 miles. The drive from Iowa City to Chicago is 222 miles. As others have said, I would rule out WashU. I don't think it's worth $90 to $100k more of student loans and interest than Iowa and UIUC. I don't know very much about Wisconsin. But, to my knowledge both Iowa and UIUC place better than Wisconsin.

OP shouldn't be worried about overall placement with this bunch of state schools, assuming we've eliminated WashU due to the debt load. OP is looking to be in a major midwest city, and Iowa has none that interest OP. So, why would OP go to a school that primarily places in a state OP doesn't want to live in? Iowa's placement is great, but it places 10% of grads in Illinois. They're probably all getting Chicago biglaw or maybe on the IL side of the Quad Cities. Meanwhile, Illinois places 60% of its grads in Illinois. A good chunk of those are getting Chicago biglaw, but I bet a lot of them are also getting other Chicago gigs, not landing in Cedar Rapids, IA or Ames, IA. I think the same analysis applies to Wisconsin and MKE. If OP had also said they're really interested in Des Moines, I'd give Iowa some more weight here.

I think Iowa's 10% placement in Illinois is partially due to self selection. UIUC may place 60% in Illinois, but it definitely does not place 60% in Chicago big law. It's less than 20%. Whereas, the 10% coming from Iowa are almost all Chicago big law. I just recommend that OP go to whichever of the two schools he liked the best. Either suit his goals. Iowa would be free, UIUC would come with debt that would not be overly burdensome to pay off even without a big law position.

[Sackboy]

OP shouldn't be worried about overall placement with this bunch of state schools, assuming we've eliminated WashU due to the debt load. OP is looking to be in a major midwest city, and Iowa has none that interest OP. So, why would OP go to a school that primarily places in a state OP doesn't want to live in? Iowa's placement is great, but it places 10% of grads in Illinois. They're probably all getting Chicago biglaw or maybe on the IL side of the Quad Cities. Meanwhile, Illinois places 60% of its grads in Illinois. A good chunk of those are getting Chicago biglaw, but I bet a lot of them are also getting other Chicago gigs, not landing in Cedar Rapids, IA or Ames, IA. I think the same analysis applies to Wisconsin and MKE. If OP had also said they're really interested in Des Moines, I'd give Iowa some more weight here.

I think Iowa's 10% placement in Illinois is partially due to self selection. UIUC may place 60% in Illinois, but it definitely does not place 60% in Chicago big law. It's less than 20%. Whereas, the 10% coming from Iowa are almost all Chicago big law. I just recommend that OP go to whichever of the two schools he liked the best. Either suit his goals. Iowa would be free, UIUC would come with debt that would not be overly burdensome to pay off even without a big law position.

I think the important thing to remember here is that OP is very flexible in terms of employment. OP just really wants to be in a a major midwestern city. OP would prefer a firm job but can live without it, and it doesn't need to be biglaw. I think that makes it important to emphasize that while Iowa/Illinois might place a similar number in Chicago biglaw (they don't based on my experience, probably 10-15 kids from Iowa a year and 25-30 from Illinois) that Illinois is going to be a much better school for all other Chicago jobs. Iowa City is technically not much further away from Chicago, but it's just a different dynamic to be interviewing for Illinois gigs with a degree from a school in a neighboring state when they know you could have gone to Illinois for roughly whatever you paid for Iowa. Just my $0.02. Iowa/Wisconsin/UIUC are all great law schools with solid employment prospects, so OP can't go too terribly wrong.

[Dcc617]

Definitely Wisconsin or UIUC. The marginal benefit of WUSTL over Wisconsin or UIUC is not worth 90K in debt. And it will be MUCH easier to pay off 10K if you strike out of biglaw and take a local government job.

[crazywafflez]

Wisconsin shouldn't be off the table- these 3 schools are effectively peer schools and the OP wants Milwaukee and is from there- see if Wisconsin will give you a fullride and show them your Iowa scholarship. Biglaw in chi or STL are going to be tough from any of these schools (albeit, easier from WashU). I'll also send a slight warning to the OP as well, STL is really insular, and sometimes even WashU grads not from the area struggle. I think it'll be really hard to get STL from Iowa, Wisconsin, UIUC, unless you've got a really good connection/reason. From what I've heard, KC is more open though.

[fromthenorth_51]

Wisconsin shouldn't be off the table- these 3 schools are effectively peer schools and the OP wants Milwaukee and is from there- see if Wisconsin will give you a fullride and show them your Iowa scholarship. Biglaw in chi or STL are going to be tough from any of these schools (albeit, easier from WashU). I'll also send a slight warning to the OP as well, STL is really insular, and sometimes even WashU grads not from the area struggle. I think it'll be really hard to get STL from Iowa, Wisconsin, UIUC, unless you've got a really good connection/reason. From what I've heard, KC is more open though.

For transparency, it should be known that UIUC/Wisc/Iowa all offered me full tuition and I will be covering the cost of living through savings and my income as a National Guard officer. I have not seen any instances where these schools offer money above full tuition. I've also discovered an additional 10k in funds that I'm eligible for in Federal Tuition Assistance. I'm going to attempt to renegotiate with WashU and see if they can lower the price another 10k.

For the reasons you mentioned about STL being insular, I have to say I'm leaning towards WashU for ~85k (75k if I can successfully renegotiate - but probably not). While I would be happy in MKE and CHI, I would like to take a crack at STL and KC if at all possible. The only school that gives me this option is WashU. While 85k of debt and no 'big law' job is not an ideal situation it seems manageable.

[fromthenorth_51]

Wisconsin shouldn't be off the table- these 3 schools are effectively peer schools and the OP wants Milwaukee and is from there- see if Wisconsin will give you a fullride and show them your Iowa scholarship. Biglaw in chi or STL are going to be tough from any of these schools (albeit, easier from WashU). I'll also send a slight warning to the OP as well, STL is really insular, and sometimes even WashU grads not from the area struggle. I think it'll be really hard to get STL from Iowa, Wisconsin, UIUC, unless you've got a really good connection/reason. From what I've heard, KC is more open though.

For transparency, it should be known that UIUC/Wisc/Iowa all offered me full tuition and I will be covering the cost of living through savings and my income as a National Guard officer. I have not seen any instances where these schools offer money above full tuition. I've also discovered an additional 10k in funds that I'm eligible for in Federal Tuition Assistance. I'm going to attempt to renegotiate with WashU and see if they can lower the price another 10k.

For the reasons you mentioned about STL being insular, I have to say I'm leaning towards WashU for ~85k (75k if I can successfully renegotiate - but probably not). While I would be happy in MKE and CHI, I would like to take a crack at STL and KC if at all possible. The only school that gives me this option is WashU. While 85k of debt and no 'big law' job is not an ideal situation it seems manageable.

Interested to see what input @CanadianWolf would have here

[Dcc617]

If you really want St. Louis, then go to Illinois or Wisconsin and network into it. $90K in debt is no joke.

What do you perceive the marginal benefit of WUSTL over Wisconsin/Illinois to be?

[Dcc617]

Here’s the employment comparison. Point out where you think there’s 90K in additional value.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/illi ... /wisconsin

[ChosenOneNow]

If you really want St. Louis, then go to Illinois or Wisconsin and network into it. $90K in debt is no joke.

What do you perceive the marginal benefit of WUSTL over Wisconsin/Illinois to be?

I fully agree with this. People who minimize $90k of student loan debt clearly never had to make a student loan payment before.

[fromthenorth_51]

If you really want St. Louis, then go to Illinois or Wisconsin and network into it. $90K in debt is no joke.

What do you perceive the marginal benefit of WUSTL over Wisconsin/Illinois to be?

Fair point. The only differences I see are WashU's increased geographic flexibility and potential increased employment resiliency during an economic downturn. Wisconsin seems to place substantially worse than both UIUC and WashU with the exception of probably Milwaukee/Madison. I guess the practical benefit of a larger market reach would be realized if I had to go into a 3L employment scramble. I could cast a net into STL/KC/MKE/+more semi-major markets whereas doing that from UIUC/Wisc/Iowa may be more challenging.

I could be wrong and I'm not sure if that is, in fact, worth 90k. But it certainly has some value.

I don't have enough knowledge or experience to comment on 'networking' into a different market like that, but I would imagine it's a rather unreliable plan.

[fromthenorth_51]

If you really want St. Louis, then go to Illinois or Wisconsin and network into it. $90K in debt is no joke.

What do you perceive the marginal benefit of WUSTL over Wisconsin/Illinois to be?

I fully agree with this. People who minimize $90k of student loan debt clearly never had to make a student loan payment before.

You're not wrong -- I appreciate this take.

[Iowahawk]

For KC, Iowa > Illinois or Wisconsin, but the benefit probably isn't big enough unless you're also interested in Des Moines and/or Omaha. All of these markets (minus Chicago) are insular so you'd benefit from going to a closer school. For example, Wisconsin didn't send any students to Missouri last year from LST. I wouldn't necessarily rule out Wash U but that is a lot of money for someone targeting regional markets that don't pay the biglaw scale.

[fromthenorth_51]

Here is an update for any future TLS 0Ls who are attempting to make a similar decision:

I went with WashU for around 100k COA. I followed some legendary TLS 1L guides (Arrow/Talon/JCC) and dedicated almost every ounce of effort I had to law school. I did extremely well and secured a 1L SA in a great market outside of the midwest. I likely would not have had this outcome from any other school I was considering.

Despite this outcome, I am certain that I made the wrong decision. I should not have picked any of these schools. I should have retaken the LSAT and applied again. I had a 4.0 UG GPA and did not apply with my best possible score. I was saved by having some unique experiences on my resume and getting very very lucky. These are not things you can count on. Not for 100k of debt.

And who knows... the world may fall apart and my 1L SA may not turn into a 2L SA or an offer. If you are a 0L reading this PLEASE consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT. There is no downside. The opportunity cost is not as high as you think and you are probably just being impatient.

If you are reading this anecdote and thinking, "it worked for them, it can work for me!"

Good luck. Study hard.

[laanngo]

Here is an update for any future TLS 0Ls who are attempting to make a similar decision:

I went with WashU for around 100k COA. I followed some legendary TLS 1L guides (Arrow/Talon/JCC) and dedicated almost every ounce of effort I had to law school. I did extremely well and secured a 1L SA in a great market outside of the midwest. I likely would not have had this outcome from any other school I was considering.

Despite this outcome, I am certain that I made the wrong decision. I should not have picked any of these schools. I should have retaken the LSAT and applied again. I had a 4.0 UG GPA and did not apply with my best possible score. I was saved by having some unique experiences on my resume and getting very very lucky. These are not things you can count on. Not for 100k of debt.

And who knows... the world may fall apart and my 1L SA may not turn into a 2L SA or an offer. If you are a 0L reading this PLEASE consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT. There is no downside. The opportunity cost is not as high as you think and you are probably just being impatient.

If you are reading this anecdote and thinking, "it worked for them, it can work for me!"

Good luck. Study hard.

Congratulations! If anyone was wondering how Wash U shot up to #16, this guy/gal/nb-pal is your answer.

[screwtapeletters]

Here is an update for any future TLS 0Ls who are attempting to make a similar decision:

I went with WashU for around 100k COA. I followed some legendary TLS 1L guides (Arrow/Talon/JCC) and dedicated almost every ounce of effort I had to law school. I did extremely well and secured a 1L SA in a great market outside of the midwest. I likely would not have had this outcome from any other school I was considering.

Despite this outcome, I am certain that I made the wrong decision. I should not have picked any of these schools. I should have retaken the LSAT and applied again. I had a 4.0 UG GPA and did not apply with my best possible score. I was saved by having some unique experiences on my resume and getting very very lucky. These are not things you can count on. Not for 100k of debt.

And who knows... the world may fall apart and my 1L SA may not turn into a 2L SA or an offer. If you are a 0L reading this PLEASE consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT. There is no downside. The opportunity cost is not as high as you think and you are probably just being impatient.

If you are reading this anecdote and thinking, "it worked for them, it can work for me!"

Good luck. Study hard.

This would generally be correct, except the OP is actually aiming to stay in the midwest, in which case any of these schools can make sense.

Wonder if you gave ND a shot? Prob has the best outcome in the midwest outside of T14 and if you got $$$ from WashU, you presumably have the numbers for that school too.

In any event, I’d recommend UIUC based on your goals. I had 100k in loans and it took me ~5 years to pay it off on biglaw money with frugal living (cause NYC is expensive, and life happens such that you can’t always spend all your money on student loans). If I had invested that money over ~5 years I prob couldve gone inhouse, but now I need to grind it out more cause I’m back to square one. 100k is a lot of money, and the difference isn’t worth it for WashU (it couldve been worth it if Northwestern or above; GTown is debatable even at 100k).

Edited for typo.