UDC Law Question Forum

[chikaboomboom]

Everyone says you won't get a job after UDC, but I personally know about 10 graduates from there who have jobs in non profits, DC government and 1 in federal government? I have no idea how much they are making. I guess I'm confused. The stats don't lie, but what would account for these students who graduated maybe 1 year apart from each other to all be employed? Maybe the hard workers at that school all stick together? What is the truth (insert Oprah gif)?

I am considering the evening program because it's cheap, I work a FT job during the day and I have visited the campus numerous time for a community meeting that is held on campus by one of the graduates (that's how I met this group of friends). Everyone seemed so down to earth and supportive of each other and it has an HBCU feel.

(PS. This is my first post so don't come in here yelling at me. I'm sensitive. )

[nealric]

Nobody will tell you that it's impossible to get a job from UDC and similar schools. Almost any law school can provide a list of distinguished alumni who have had immense career success. But it's a game of risk and playing the odds. What are the chances you will find the result you seek?

Law school transparency is a helpful website that attempts to quantify these odds. The results for UDC are not encouraging:

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/udc/

Based on class of 2019 graduates, it appears that less than half passed the bar exam and only around 30% found jobs as lawyers in their first year. The full sticker price of UDC is about $150,000, which would entail over $200,000 in debt after living expenses are taken into account if you attend full time and borrow the full cost of attendance. Borrowing $200,000 for a 30% chance of becoming a lawyer at any salary, let alone one sufficient to pay back those loans, is a very risky proposition. Perhaps the numbers improve somewhat if you follow grads that take a few years to get started practicing, but there's little question that most graduates have a tough time.

Since you are looking to attend part time and may very well pay nowhere near the sticker price, your risk profile may be slightly different. But the odds are still that you would spend four years of your life without much to show.

The question becomes: why this school specifically? There are other schools in the DC area that offer night programs. If you are looking for an HCBU feel, arguably the best HBCU in the country is in town. Why write those schools off? While you are likely stuck with your undergraduate GPA, LSAT scores can almost always be improved with proper prep. Getting a better LSAT score is almost always the easier path than doing it through a lower-tier school.

[chikaboomboom]

Howard doesn't have a PT/evening program. If it did, I would go there. I work a 9-5 making over 100K a year so I'm not worried about the cost. It's only 8k a semester and I expect to get some $ with my stats. Now with a CU or American, I would be worried about the cost, without that much of an improvement on job prospect stats. I can't wait to spend another year studying for the LSAT and then enter school the next year because I'm a non traditional student with a lot of life responsibilities that will get more complicated as the years go on, so it's kinda now or never.

Idk I have witnessed the job search process in DC for the types of jobs I'm trying to get and I don't see how going to UDC has hurt these students. Alternatively, I know two GW law grads who can't get jobs and no one at the school will help them. I know a couple Howard law grads who got good jobs but I also didn't follow the search process with them because we're not as close. I think a lot of it comes down to connections and alumni. UDC alum/deans seem like they've helped a lot of students get jobs by making direct connections and asking friends to meet with them.

So I guess my question is, why would going to UDC affect someone's chances of trying to get a job in DC when there are alum and deans that are very agressive in helping students get work? I mean I have witnessed this happen. Maybe a lot of grads aren't seeking jobs in DC? Might that have an affect?

[nealric]

Howard doesn't have a PT/evening program. If it did, I would go there. I work a 9-5 making over 100K a year so I'm not worried about the cost. It's only 8k a semester and I expect to get some $ with my stats. Now with a CU or American, I would be worried about the cost, without that much of an improvement on job prospect stats. I can't wait to spend another year studying for the LSAT and then entering school the next year, because I'm a non traditional student with a lot of life responsibilities that will get more complicated as the years go on, so it's kinda now or never.

Idk I have witnessed the job search process in DC for the types of jobs I'm trying to get and I don't see how going to UDC has hurt these students. Alternatively, I know two GW law grads who can't get jobs and no one at the school will help them. I know a couple Howard law grads who got good jobs but I also didn't follow the search process with them because we're not as close. I think a lot of it comes down to connections and alumni. UDC alum/dean seem like they've helped a lot of students get jobs by making direct connections and asking friends to meet with them.

So I guess my question is, why would going to UDC affect someone's chances of trying to get a job in DC when there are alum and deans that are very agressive in helping students get work? I mean I have witnessed this happen. Maybe a lot of grads aren't seeking jobs in DC? Might that have an affect?

A supportive environment is always helpful, but the numbers are the numbers. GW may not be very helpful to its graduates (I have no idea if that is the case), but statistically they are more than twice as likely to find gainful employment as lawyers.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/

At the end of the day, the question is really about what you are trying to accomplish and what are the odds that a UDC degree will get you there. If you intend to use a law degree as an additional credential within your current 9-5 type role, that is a very different proposition than if you dream of being a Supreme Court clerk or top M&A partner.

As for why going to UDC will affect the chances of employment: the short answer is that the legal profession is snobby. Most assume that if you didn't go to a higher ranked school, it's because you couldn't. A firm that will hire a median student from Georgetown may only look at the top 1-2 students at UDC. Lobbying and connections do you no good if the firm deems you unqualified. Smaller firms can be more relaxed and less snobby, but smaller firms almost uniformly pay less than you are currently making to new graduates, and have far fewer (and less regular) openings. Federal government can be less snobby (although prestige units like the DOJ more so), but can be very difficult to get in for new graduates. Non-profits jobs can be just as competitive as those at law firms.

One can debate the origins and merits of the snobbiness, but I think bar passage has at least something to do with it. Large law firms typically extend offers prior to graduation. They are likely to be wary of accepting an offer to a student from a school where less than half pass the bar (as opposed to one where 90%+ do).

I doubt UDC's employment statistics can be explained away by regional bias. There's no reason why more students would try to find employment outside the region than any other school.

[nixy]

How many UDC grads do you know, and what percentage of all UDC grads do they make up? You said 10 people - that is really NOT a lot of grads. Connections are really important in getting jobs, but if it were only about the Dean being connected, many more UDC students would be employed. You probably just happen to know a small cluster of successful students who also know each other. The other thing is connections are usually in specific areas. So the usefulness of going to UDC will depend on what kind of job you want. If you want a job in local government that’s a different prospect than wanting a job at a national private firm.

[cavalier1138]

If you want a job in local government that’s a different prospect than wanting a job at a national private firm.

This. And beware survivor bias; if you're only speaking to UDC grads who got jobs, you're naturally going to have an inflated sense of how easy it is to get hired from that school.

I can't wait to spend another year studying for the LSAT and then enter school the next year because I'm a non traditional student with a lot of life responsibilities that will get more complicated as the years go on, so it's kinda now or never.

I'm always going to take issue with this claim. If your busy/complicated life won't allow you to start law school next year, then it's not going to allow you to be in your second year of law school next year. Contrary to popular belief, the workload doesn't get easier; it just gets different.

[chikaboomboom]

I'm always going to take issue with this claim. If your busy/complicated life won't allow you to start law school next year, then it's not going to allow you to be in your second year of law school next year. Contrary to popular belief, the workload doesn't get easier; it just gets different.

I won't get into details because it's personal, but no starting the following year is not an option. I will leave it there and ask that you respect that.

[chikaboomboom]

How many UDC grads do you know, and what percentage of all UDC grads do they make up? You said 10 people - that is really NOT a lot of grads. Connections are really important in getting jobs, but if it were only about the Dean being connected, many more UDC students would be employed. You probably just happen to know a small cluster of successful students who also know each other. The other thing is connections are usually in specific areas. So the usefulness of going to UDC will depend on what kind of job you want. If you want a job in local government that’s a different prospect than wanting a job at a national private firm.

I know 10 and yes I think they may have been the cluster of successful students. I of course have no interest in a national private firm. I would like to work for a couple years and then open a solo practice - and before you guys ask, yes I have run a business and yes I have substantive experience with client acquisition. lol

[nealric]

I'm always going to take issue with this claim. If your busy/complicated life won't allow you to start law school next year, then it's not going to allow you to be in your second year of law school next year. Contrary to popular belief, the workload doesn't get easier; it just gets different.

I won't get into details because it's personal, but no starting the following year is not an option. I will leave it there and ask that you respect that.

Not asking for your personal details, but the only legitimate reason I can think of why you absolutely cannot wait another year is a terminal illness. I went to law school with someone in their 50s who did just fine on the job market.

[cavalier1138]

I would like to work for a couple years and then open a solo practice - and before you guys ask, yes I have run a business and yes I have substantive experience with client acquisition.

Where would you like to work before opening your solo practice?

[chikaboomboom]

I would like to work for a couple years and then open a solo practice - and before you guys ask, yes I have run a business and yes I have substantive experience with client acquisition.

Where would you like to work before opening your solo practice?

I don't know. I'll figure that out in school after participating in clinics, experential learning opportunities and getting a better idea of the different options available. I think it wouldn't make sense for me to say I want to work in the DAs office for two years, right now when I have no real idea of what working in a DAs office would entail.

[nixy]

I get that, and it’s a reasonable stance, but what makes you think then that you want to be a lawyer, assuming that you don’t know what that entails either?

[chikaboomboom]

I get that, and it’s a reasonable stance, but what makes you think then that you want to be a lawyer, assuming that you don’t know what that entails either?

I know what a being a lawyer entails, just not every possible direction one could take. I worked in midsize law firms for about 4 years, which is why I know I would never want to work in big law, since midsize law was horrifying and nearly every lawyer was miserable and the young associates were treated like shit. The couple of smaller firms I've worked in were much better but I still don't want to do that type of work (corporate law). I've had internships at circuit courts, small civil litigation firms, etc since I was about 15, and that type of work seemed more my speed, but again I was 15, so who knows. I'm gonna go into it open, knowing where I have some interests but also not making a declaration that I will be working in IP when I graduate, like many people do. That would be silly since very few non-lawyers know what IP law is all about prior to going to law school.

[nixy]

The problem is that having some idea of goals is pretty important for picking a school, because some schools are reasonable for one kind of goal but not another, and you want to weigh cost against the options that the school will give you. It's a little concerning that most of the legal jobs you *have* seen, you don't want, though.

[chikaboomboom]

The problem is that having some idea of goals is pretty important for picking a school, because some schools are reasonable for one kind of goal but not another, and you want to weigh cost against the options that the school will give you. It's a little concerning that most of the legal jobs you *have* seen, you don't want, though.

There is one type of legal job I have seen that I don't want - corporate law. I actually stated that the other types I enjoyed but I would be a fool to assume that my interest interning in a court at 15 would necessarily translate to me wanting to do that now.

I think you can have an idea of your goal but you really won't know for sure until you go to school. I'm not worried about that so much though. I have had a long career and have always done fine for myself. That's one reason why I'm considering a lower ranked school like UDC for a PT program. If I get a full ride, I don't really see any downsides to it.

[cavalier1138]

I think you can have an idea of your goal but you really won't know for sure until you go to school.

That's true. But there's a wide gulf between "I want to do patent litigation for a life sciences firm" (actually, a lot of people with science backgrounds know exactly what they're getting into with IP law) and "I'm good at doing stuff, and being a lawyer seems neat."

So I guess the better question is why are you drawn to the law? Do you want to help disadvantaged communities? Rake in tons of cash so you can buy a yacht? Work on cutting-edge cases? Defend people accused of crimes?

[chikaboomboom]

I think you can have an idea of your goal but you really won't know for sure until you go to school.

That's true. But there's a wide gulf between "I want to do patent litigation for a life sciences firm" (actually, a lot of people with science backgrounds know exactly what they're getting into with IP law) and "I'm good at doing stuff, and being a lawyer seems neat."

So I guess the better question is why are you drawn to the law? Do you want to help disadvantaged communities? Rake in tons of cash so you can buy a yacht? Work on cutting-edge cases? Defend people accused of crimes?

I guess, I'm a little confused about why you are asking me this. This seems beyond the scope of my initial question, which is why job stats may show something different that what I am seeing.

With all due respect to you as a mod, this board seems very hostile, like you all are trying to haze anyone who wants to join your sorority. It may explain why there is very little activity on here of late.

I think you all have helped in answering my question above. You're both welcome to continue commenting but I am exiting this conversation now. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[nixy]

In case you do come back to see this - posters here tend to grill people a bit about what they want to do and why they want to go to law school because it’s often an extremely expensive commitment in both time and money, and a lot of applicants still think it leads to a more interesting and lucrative, and less demanding career than is often the case. Too many people regret it after the fact, so posters here try to ensure people don’t end up in that position.

[cavalier1138]

With all due respect to you as a mod, this board seems very hostile, like you all are trying to haze anyone who wants to join your sorority. It may explain why there is very little activity on here of late.

In addition to what nixy said, it's a little wild that you think "Why do you want to practice law?" is a "hostile" question for someone applying to law school. It's your money/time, but it seems odd to be confused by the question when you're literally asking about dropping at least three years of your life (and a significant chunk of change) on professional training.

[nealric]

I think you can have an idea of your goal but you really won't know for sure until you go to school.

That's true. But there's a wide gulf between "I want to do patent litigation for a life sciences firm" (actually, a lot of people with science backgrounds know exactly what they're getting into with IP law) and "I'm good at doing stuff, and being a lawyer seems neat."

So I guess the better question is why are you drawn to the law? Do you want to help disadvantaged communities? Rake in tons of cash so you can buy a yacht? Work on cutting-edge cases? Defend people accused of crimes?

I guess, I'm a little confused about why you are asking me this. This seems beyond the scope of my initial question, which is why job stats may show something different that what I am seeing.

With all due respect to you as a mod, this board seems very hostile, like you all are trying to haze anyone who wants to join your sorority. It may explain why there is very little activity on here of late.

I think you all have helped in answering my question above. You're both welcome to continue commenting but I am exiting this conversation now. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

There’s a difference between hostility and providing an answer you don’t want to hear. Most of the long-term folks are used to this sort of reaction. I’ve been in threads of this nature for over a decade in this and predecessor forums. You’ll even find a few threads of folks who ignored the advice and later came to regret it. Nothing for us to gain by dissuading you. It’s about honest advice.

Again, it’s an odds game. You can bet against the house and win, but it’s probably not something to count on. We aren’t saying this to keep you out of our “sorority.” We are telling you that choosing a school like UDC is a difficult path that shouldn’t be taken without loads of careful consideration.