Northwestern vs Notre Dame Forum

[CSKLawz]

I think you should go to Notre Dame. I get the sense that while you may enjoy your time with the Northwestern Fed Soc chapter, you would feel completely alienated by the majority of the student body. It’s up to you whether you want to “be that person” in your Con Law class, but I personally wouldn’t.

That being said, the outcomes between the schools are night and day. Not sure how much your connections can help you if you come out below median at ND.

[Morgan Park]

I'm getting Hegewisch vibes.

LOL, very close, but the ND boosters are mostly in DC (have recruiters who've worked at multiple firms tell me ND resumes get more callbacks? But these same people are telling me that Georgetown is better-regarded than UVA in DC and I'm not sure they really have their finger on the pulse) and/or NU alum who want to leave Chicago.

That being said, the outcomes between the schools are night and day.

This is what I'm trying to understand. By the numbers the outcomes at median and higher look really comparable. I get the stock advice not to count on it but what I am really struggling with here is whether being in the top 25% at ND is really objectively worse than being in the bottom 25% at NU. Can we please do a clean assessment here with that assumption? Is median or below at NU better than being in the top of your class at ND if we are talking about Chicago biglaw and federal clerkships?

Arguments about the "quality" of clerkships obtained coming out of ND are seductive, but incredibly slippery and subjective and hard to prove. That said, ND's numbers for 2019 grads are better than NU's, but that's just one year and in the prior years they were consistently lower (not a lot, but lower), so it's hard to say yet whether that will continue or not.

The 2019 numbers are better because there are new appointments to the judiciary that have a very high opinion of and/or connections to Notre Dame. I fully believe that this is an upward trend that will continue.

I just had to laugh at the statement about diversity training. I'm an adjunct faculty member in finance at a school whose law school is a peer to those you are mentioning so I know every employee on campus has to take the "canned" diversity training, plus another one on sexual harassment from the same company that sells a subscription to the schools to meet their compliance needs. (I've actually had to take the exact same one at another school I only taught one course at.)

In any case, these "training" videos were Stalinesque to say the least. The point of departure is that you are a racist, sexist, predator and if you disagree it's only because you don't know it because these traits are institutional and there's nothing you can do other than lube up for the woke squad and bend over. If I do start LS in the fall it will be my first time on the student side of class in over 15 years. I certainly hope this isn't as much the norm as it seems. Nearly every single day I get one of the mass emails from an administrator on campus opining on behalf of the entire (highly ranked state U) system, which is insanely inappropriate.

Yeah. Well, a mentor (NU grad and adjunct) said that these types of "trainings" are unavoidable in the corporate world. They have certainly infected my Fortune 500 company and NU trains lawyers for companies like mine, so I guess it makes sense that they'd be a reflection of the zeitgeist. They're not Chicago, so I guess I shouldn't expect any moral or intellectual stands from the school beyond pandering. So while I might escape them for three more years at Notre Dame, the reality is that I'm going to law school because I have a mind suited for this kind of work and I am at a place in life where I need to maximize my income and earning potential. At least at some companies and schools there are sane people in positions of authority who will admit privately that it's all ridiculous. My concern is with NU giving the dean the boot after making her bend over. What will they do to a student who says something unpopular?

[nixy]

There is still absolutely no evidence that the dean was “given the boot.” Even if she was, how schools handle that kind of internal admin situation isn’t going to affect how they treat a student. To put it bluntly, schools pay deans a lot to handle these issues and deans are permanent hires; you’re paying them to attend and you’ll be gone in three years. They also hope to get alumni donations from you in the future. They’re not going to mistreat a student who disagrees on these issues. They expect students to react to issues of the day (either way); they expect deans to be able to deal with those reactions effectively. Even if she did get booted for how she handled it, that’s because her job is to handle student reactions, not because they’re suppressing particular political views.

(To be clear, you’ll certainly find opposition to your political views, but it will come from other students, not the administration. That will probably be the case at ND, too, though, if to a somewhat lesser extent.)

The big thing is you can’t compare being at the top of ND with being at the bottom of NU. They’re different schools, but their score ranges aren’t so different that you can guarantee doing better at one than at the other. I’d say the top of ND is clearly a better place to be than the bottom of NU, but you can’t guarantee being at the top of either. Stats are imperfect measures of potential to succeed in law school and everyone knows the person with great stats who fumbles through 1L and the person with terrible stats who kills it and transfers up. You can’t predict outcomes at this point. (I’ll concede that with a big enough gap between schools you can start to make these assumptions - someone who gets into a T14 will probably do pretty well at, say, a T3, but NU and ND aren’t far enough apart for to rely on this.) What you need to compare is median at each, because statistically, most students fall into the great big mushy median range.

Re: the upward trend of judicial appointments - that’s probably dependent on who wins in November.

[cavalier1138]

The big thing is you can’t compare being at the top of ND with being at the bottom of NU. They’re different schools, but their score ranges aren’t so different that you can guarantee doing better at one than at the other. I’d say the top of ND is clearly a better place to be than the bottom of NU, but you can’t guarantee being at the top of either. Stats are imperfect measures of potential to succeed in law school and everyone knows the person with great stats who fumbles through 1L and the person with terrible stats who kills it and transfers up. You can’t predict outcomes at this point. (I’ll concede that with a big enough gap between schools you can start to make these assumptions - someone who gets into a T14 will probably do pretty well at, say, a T3, but NU and ND aren’t far enough apart for to rely on this.) What you need to compare is median at each, because statistically, most students fall into the great big mushy median range.

All of this.

You cannot count on being at the top of the ND class. And the number of people at the "bottom" of the Northwestern class is likely to be much lower than the bottom of the ND class, given how most T13 curves work.

[CSKLawz]

I really don't want you to take this the wrong way as I am trying to be helpful.

You strike me as a person who wants to share your opinions publicly. NU is never going to silence you. But many members of the student body will hold your views against you. The Fed Soc chapter is strong, so if you want to stay insulated in those 50 students, you'll be fine. But if you don't have the grades, you're going to need to rely on help from other faculty, students, and alumni. It is a small school, so your reputation will precede you.

Then again, I perceive this thread as you looking for validation that ND is the right call. For you, it might be.

[Morgan Park]

The big thing is you can’t compare being at the top of ND with being at the bottom of NU. They’re different schools, but their score ranges aren’t so different that you can guarantee doing better at one than at the other. I’d say the top of ND is clearly a better place to be than the bottom of NU, but you can’t guarantee being at the top of either. Stats are imperfect measures of potential to succeed in law school and everyone knows the person with great stats who fumbles through 1L and the person with terrible stats who kills it and transfers up. You can’t predict outcomes at this point. (I’ll concede that with a big enough gap between schools you can start to make these assumptions - someone who gets into a T14 will probably do pretty well at, say, a T3, but NU and ND aren’t far enough apart for to rely on this.) What you need to compare is median at each, because statistically, most students fall into the great big mushy median range.

All of this.

You cannot count on being at the top of the ND class. And the number of people at the "bottom" of the Northwestern class is likely to be much lower than the bottom of the ND class, given how most T13 curves work.

Is there a primer somewhere on T13 curves? This is new information for me.

I really wish I had better information on all of this. I am now hearing that some firms care about the school even with laterals and this conflicts with information I’d heard before. It also seems that attorneys who have been out of school for awhile are not current with some of this.

[cavalier1138]

Is there a primer somewhere on T13 curves? This is new information for me.

I really wish I had better information on all of this. I am now hearing that some firms care about the school even with laterals and this conflicts with information I’d heard before. It also seems that attorneys who have been out of school for awhile are not current with some of this.

Bingo. Don't ask older attorneys for their opinions. Unless they're on the hiring committee, they're not in touch with current hiring practices, and they will 100% downplay the importance of school pedigree and debt loads.

In terms of grading curves, I think most schools publish their grading policies. But what I was referring to in general was that T13 curves tend to be a very large pack of median to slightly-below median students, and then a top third, quarter, 10%, etc. There are very few students who will fall dramatically below median at these schools, because grades below a B- (or B at most schools, I think) are discretionary and in some cases require administrative sign-off.

[nixy]

How long have these attorneys been out of school? Any who graduated ~2000 or earlier are really not going to be good sources of info for admissions/hiring (for the latter, except maybe for their own firm, if they’re involved in it). Things have have changed a LOT in the last 20 years.

(Scooped by cav.)

Also, check out ND’s curve. It may be less forgiving.

[Anon-non-anon]

The big thing is you can’t compare being at the top of ND with being at the bottom of NU. They’re different schools, but their score ranges aren’t so different that you can guarantee doing better at one than at the other. I’d say the top of ND is clearly a better place to be than the bottom of NU, but you can’t guarantee being at the top of either. Stats are imperfect measures of potential to succeed in law school and everyone knows the person with great stats who fumbles through 1L and the person with terrible stats who kills it and transfers up. You can’t predict outcomes at this point. (I’ll concede that with a big enough gap between schools you can start to make these assumptions - someone who gets into a T14 will probably do pretty well at, say, a T3, but NU and ND aren’t far enough apart for to rely on this.) What you need to compare is median at each, because statistically, most students fall into the great big mushy median range.

All of this.

You cannot count on being at the top of the ND class. And the number of people at the "bottom" of the Northwestern class is likely to be much lower than the bottom of the ND class, given how most T13 curves work.

Is there a primer somewhere on T13 curves? This is new information for me.

I really wish I had better information on all of this. I am now hearing that some firms care about the school even with laterals and this conflicts with information I’d heard before. It also seems that attorneys who have been out of school for awhile are not current with some of this.

The importance of school goes down with time, but it will still be a factor for a lot of reasons, not least of which is alumni network and general snootiness of the ppl making hiring decisions.

Also, if things don't work out on the clerkship front from ND, you might start out impossibly behind where a median outcome from NW would have put you. Also, district court clerkships don't seem to be the golden ticket they used to be (if ever?), especially if there's other reasons for a firm to ding you, so if you graduate at median from ND and still get a clerkship, your life afterwards may be worse than slightly below median NW-->starting in big law.

I'm also very curious what these networks are that you're confident you'll get a clerkship before you start law school. Is a close family member or friend a federal judge or senator? If not, I wouldn't be so sure. I know people who go to T5s who fit that profile and still weren't at all confident they'd get a clerkship (of course they did but still).

[ignorantfoot96]

I really don't want you to take this the wrong way as I am trying to be helpful.

You strike me as a person who wants to share your opinions publicly. NU is never going to silence you. But many members of the student body will hold your views against you. The Fed Soc chapter is strong, so if you want to stay insulated in those 50 students, you'll be fine. But if you don't have the grades, you're going to need to rely on help from other faculty, students, and alumni. It is a small school, so your reputation will precede you.

Then again, I perceive this thread as you looking for validation that ND is the right call. For you, it might be.

yup

[Sackboy]

As someone with pretty deep connections with the university, my understanding is that Yuracko was not given the boot. This was a voluntary transition. Yuracko dealt with a lot during her short tenure: the university (and consequently law school) taking non-COVID related austerity measures, fumbling some tenure-related decisions, a trans student incident, half the black faculty leaving the law school in one year and that backlash, and then COVID austerity measures and distance learning, all on top of the normal things that a new Dean has to deal with in the first few years of a tenure. I don't think this is how she imagined her role as the Dean, and I think she just wanted to step away from that and work on the sort of academic projects that she thought she would have more freedom to pursue as a Dean.

As for "woke" student, I don't know how the recent students are, but there has always been a pocket of very socially active students at Northwestern Law. They are generally liberal, but the FedSoc society is also quite active.

As for as NU vs Notre Dame, Northwestern has had no problem producing conservative legal thinkers, politicians, and practitioners. If the difference in cost isn't too terrible (~$50-80k), I'd definitely take NU. At the same class rank at Northwestern as at Notre Dame, you're going to have better firm, clerkship, impact lit, etc. options. You're also going to avoid a much more significant chance of striking out, especially in down economies.

Thanks for the chuckle about Chicago having moral standards.

[ribbit16]

Their star continues to rise in certain circles as the University of Chicago drifts from its previous reputation (they've yet to make a decision but I do not think it's the right fit, whereas Northwestern is a strong "maybe").

I'm very curious why (a) you seem to think Chicago, the favorite school of many of the hardest right judges like Ho, Rao, and Pryor, is slipping in its reputation in hard right circles, and (b) why you would not want to go there when you seem to prefer the South Side. (Though if you think ND > NW on the South Side I'm very skeptical that you have your finger on its pulse).

But you should obviously go to Northwestern regardless and do your best not to become a social pariah. I have good friends clerking for the hardest right judges and they're perfectly socially normal and have lots of liberal friends, which you don't come off as to be brutally honest.

[Morgan Park]

Their star continues to rise in certain circles as the University of Chicago drifts from its previous reputation (they've yet to make a decision but I do not think it's the right fit, whereas Northwestern is a strong "maybe").

I'm very curious why (a) you seem to think Chicago, the favorite school of many of the hardest right judges like Ho, Rao, and Pryor, is slipping in its reputation in hard right circles, and (b) why you would not want to go there when you seem to prefer the South Side. (Though if you think ND > NW on the South Side I'm very skeptical that you have your finger on its pulse).

But you should obviously go to Northwestern regardless and do your best not to become a social pariah. I have good friends clerking for the hardest right judges and they're perfectly socially normal and have lots of liberal friends, which you don't come off as to be brutally honest.

Comments from current professors at U of C who said I should go to Notre Dame.

Lol, I’m totally socially normal a lot of people have just become unhinged in the past few years. I’m sick of environments where you’re a pariah if you’re not a performative leftist.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Their star continues to rise in certain circles as the University of Chicago drifts from its previous reputation (they've yet to make a decision but I do not think it's the right fit, whereas Northwestern is a strong "maybe").

I'm very curious why (a) you seem to think Chicago, the favorite school of many of the hardest right judges like Ho, Rao, and Pryor, is slipping in its reputation in hard right circles, and (b) why you would not want to go there when you seem to prefer the South Side. (Though if you think ND > NW on the South Side I'm very skeptical that you have your finger on its pulse).

But you should obviously go to Northwestern regardless and do your best not to become a social pariah. I have good friends clerking for the hardest right judges and they're perfectly socially normal and have lots of liberal friends, which you don't come off as to be brutally honest.

Comments from current professors at U of C who said I should go to Notre Dame.

LOL

I’m sick of environments where you’re a pariah if you’re not a performative leftist.

No elite law school has an environment like this.

[Morgan Park]

No elite law school has an environment like this.

Not sure if my post got caught in moderation, but the NYU "law journal strike" is an example of what I'm talking about. A bunch of students jump on a bandwagon and then ones who are not into it for whatever reason get dragged. I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned that people that are this way online might be that way in person.

I just want to go to school, learn the law, and be able to basically ignore SJW antics without being brigaded because "silence is violence."

[decimalsanddollars]

lol just go to ND or like George Mason or whatever, you'll be fine

[cavalier1138]

I just want to go to school, learn the law, and be able to basically ignore SJW antics without being brigaded because "silence is violence."

I went to NYU. Not sure what you think happens to students who don't join in with "SJW antics," but I assure you that I wasn't put in the stocks for failing to attend a protest or for holding the opinion that prosecutors aren't literally the devil.

I have it on good authority that Berkeley exiles students who refuse to get high and listen to the most senior lecturers explain why Woodstock was the peak of American civilization, but that's it.

[nixy]

You can ignore these things at school just as easily as you can ignore them in real life. There are no purity tests or HUACs.

[Morgan Park]

You can ignore these things at school just as easily as you can ignore them in real life. There are no purity tests or HUACs.

There totally are in real life, it's been very disturbing. I was blacklisted in a previous career. I have very real trauma around this but I discussed it with an administrator and other students at Northwestern and I think it will be fine.

[lawdog97]

It sounds like you want validation to go to ND. So, go.

Both are great schools with a good reputation, so choose whichever is less expensive.

[Morgan Park]

It sounds like you want validation to go to ND. So, go.

Both are great schools with a good reputation, so choose whichever is less expensive.

They’re the same price now, it was a tough call but people are objectively correct that the downside risk at ND is higher so it cannot be justified. My next post will be about Chicago vs NU if I make it off the waitlist

[Sackboy]

They’re the same price now, it was a tough call but people are objectively correct that the downside risk at ND is higher so it cannot be justified. My next post will be about Chicago vs NU if I make it off the waitlist

If you make it off the waitlist and even ponder paying sticker at Chicago, then may God save your soul for spending $300,000 on a law school degree.

[AaronCarter]

Their star continues to rise in certain circles as the University of Chicago drifts from its previous reputation (they've yet to make a decision but I do not think it's the right fit, whereas Northwestern is a strong "maybe").

I'm very curious why (a) you seem to think Chicago, the favorite school of many of the hardest right judges like Ho, Rao, and Pryor, is slipping in its reputation in hard right circles, and (b) why you would not want to go there when you seem to prefer the South Side. (Though if you think ND > NW on the South Side I'm very skeptical that you have your finger on its pulse).

But you should obviously go to Northwestern regardless and do your best not to become a social pariah. I have good friends clerking for the hardest right judges and they're perfectly socially normal and have lots of liberal friends, which you don't come off as to be brutally honest.

Comments from current professors at U of C who said I should go to Notre Dame.

Lol, I’m totally socially normal a lot of people have just become unhinged in the past few years. I’m sick of environments where you’re a pariah if you’re not a performative leftist.

LOL

Please just got to ND

[The Lsat Airbender]

Their star continues to rise in certain circles as the University of Chicago drifts from its previous reputation (they've yet to make a decision but I do not think it's the right fit, whereas Northwestern is a strong "maybe").

I'm very curious why (a) you seem to think Chicago, the favorite school of many of the hardest right judges like Ho, Rao, and Pryor, is slipping in its reputation in hard right circles, and (b) why you would not want to go there when you seem to prefer the South Side. (Though if you think ND > NW on the South Side I'm very skeptical that you have your finger on its pulse).

But you should obviously go to Northwestern regardless and do your best not to become a social pariah. I have good friends clerking for the hardest right judges and they're perfectly socially normal and have lots of liberal friends, which you don't come off as to be brutally honest.

Comments from current professors at U of C who said I should go to Notre Dame.

Lol, I’m totally socially normal a lot of people have just become unhinged in the past few years. I’m sick of environments where you’re a pariah if you’re not a performative leftist.

LOL

Please just got to ND

Imagine what reading this thread must feel like for people on the UChicago waitlist

[laanngo]

I went to NYU.

Not UVA? I thought those were the cavaliers.