Can't make a decision; at a dead end

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Uncreative123

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Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by Uncreative123 » Sat May 23, 2020 7:45 pm

I respect the opinions of members here and I'm hoping someone will call attention to an aspect I haven't yet considered while making this decision. I came across some older threads where a few people were debating a few of the same schools for the same reasons I am.

I've already withdrawn apps from a couple of schools that offered me $25k/year scholarships like Michigan State and Creighton. I'm down to two: University of Nebraska and Drake. UNL is offering me around 73% off tuition (28k/year scholarship; out of state) and Drake is offering 81% off (35k/year). I'm aware UNL is the higher ranked school (67-76 vs 105). The UNL scholarship is unconditional, the Drake scholarship however *is* conditional (except for $5k of it).

Drake's 509 shows that roughly 70% of those on conditional scholarships lost them or had them reduced. That is an alarming number and a great example of why you don't want one. A friend of mine and my own attorney both graduated from Drake, both highly intelligent, both turned down better schools, both lost the scholarships they had. I've been speaking with a current 1L Drake student and she said she had no problem keeping her scholarship and doesn't know anyone who lost theirs. Drake does have unconditional scholarships, but they have said they cannot (or will not) make mine unconditional.
Other relevant stats:
3.05 or higher needed to renew the Drake scholarship. Approximately all B's and one B+ min. I have not been able to find any information on class rank/gpa so I really have no idea what that means or how practical that is. (Yes, I'm aware of the bell curve)
UNL uses a 9.0 scale; you only need to maintain a 4.0 (C) average for the scholarship. The top 10% of the last 1L classes were 7.4-7.5 (between A and B+ avg). Top 50% were 5.9+ (B/B-).
Based off those numbers I'm assuming I'd have to be in the top 10-12% at Drake to retain that scholarship.

Drake being the lower ranked school you would assume you could do better class rank wise, but I get the impression that Drake is far more competitive (possibly because of the conditional scholarships). Drake's Moot Court and Mock Trial comp. teams consistently place in the top 5 in the nation for the last 20+ years. I don't know if this is actually a noteworthy accolade or if other higher ranked schools just don't care about these programs/competitions. I do think Drake is very underrated and as others have stated it's *the* law school for Des Moines. I think the strongest argument for Drake, the one my attorney told me to consider and why he turned down Iowa, is that all the law firms/work opportunities in Iowa are in Des Moines. Essentially- the "go to school where you want to practice" argument. Drake seems to have a lot of direct hands-on/real world experience practicums that other schools don't have. I'm mostly interested in criminal law/pub. defender and based off the course offerings/descriptions it looks like Drake beats UNL- but I cannot substantiate that.

Arguments for Nebraska- state school, higher ranked, don't have to worry about losing scholarship, and one of only two schools currently offering a Space Law program lol. That's actually a selling point for me and an interesting prospect. Who wouldn't want to call themselves a space lawyer? Out of pocket expense- roughly $30k total (tuition) vs. Drake which could be as low as $24k all the way up to $83k if I lose my scholarship after the first year. I cannot do that.

* I don't ultimately know where I want to end up, but I suppose in my mind the default setting has been anticipating practicing in Des Moines.
* I suppose I don't really want to stay in Lincoln, NE and I fear if I go to school there I will stay there.
* Most importantly- I have a two year old son living in Des Moines. I share custody with his mom, but he stays with her most of the time. I'm aware that I'll have very little free time while in school so I don't know how to effectively gauge how bad it would be for me to be 2 1/2 hours away vs 10 minutes away. This is actually the main reason I'm considering Drake over UNL, but it's an $83,000 gamble. This is my predicament.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by dvlthndr » Sat May 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Uncreative123 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:45 pm
* Most importantly- I have a two year old son living in Des Moines. I share custody with his mom, but he stays with her most of the time. I'm aware that I'll have very little free time while in school so I don't know how to effectively gauge how bad it would be for me to be 2 1/2 hours away vs 10 minutes away. This is actually the main reason I'm considering Drake over UNL, but it's an $83,000 gamble. This is my predicament.

These are two regional schools. If you go to UNL, you should expect to wind up working in Nebraska; similarly, if you go to Drake, you should expect to wind up working in Iowa. You might be able to buck the trend, but don't be on it. Geography aside, they have pretty similar employment outcomes (i.e., most of the class works for a small firm and makes ~60k). You can confirm this with the ABA/NALP employment reports for both schools. Links are here: UNL ABA report, UNL NALP report, Drake ABA report and Drake NALP report.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that Drake is somehow more prestigious (it's not) or that some placement in a random moot court competition matters (it doesn't). Also, don't assume that you can beat the odds and keep that scholarship (if 70% of them get reduced, you should expect yours to get reduced).

The real question is if you want to risk spending an extra ~$50k for the chance of living (and eventually working) near your son. It that's really what matters to you, you should suck it up and go to Drake. It's a terrible financial choice, but it sets you up to be a presence during your kid's formative years.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by beinghuman » Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm

Why do you want to go to law school? Do you know for sure that you'd like to work as a public defender? Or as a criminal defense attorney? (Also I'm not sure what space law is...)

I wouldn't advise anyone to attend either school, especially in light of the economic recession that's going to befall us.

Can you wait for a year or two? See if/how the economy rebounds and retake the LSAT?

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cavalier1138

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun May 24, 2020 7:02 am

beinghuman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm
Why do you want to go to law school? Do you know for sure that you'd like to work as a public defender? Or as a criminal defense attorney? (Also I'm not sure what space law is...)

I wouldn't advise anyone to attend either school, especially in light of the economic recession that's going to befall us.

Can you wait for a year or two? See if/how the economy rebounds and retake the LSAT?
I second all of this. You would be better off not going to law school than attending either of these options in your given circumstances.

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nealric

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by nealric » Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 am

beinghuman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm
Why do you want to go to law school? Do you know for sure that you'd like to work as a public defender? Or as a criminal defense attorney? (Also I'm not sure what space law is...)

I wouldn't advise anyone to attend either school, especially in light of the economic recession that's going to befall us.

Can you wait for a year or two? See if/how the economy rebounds and retake the LSAT?

I actually have a friend who does space law as a civilian for the Air Force Space Command (I guess it’s space force now). It’s mostly government contracting and deal work related to putting stuff in orbit, as well as regulatory. There are a small handful of biglaw types who do space related stuff at least occasionally.

Anyhow, there are precisely zero space law jobs in the areas you want to live, nor are the chances high at all you would get such jobs coming out of regional midwestern law schools. Specialty programs are there to attract students and give professors something to crow about, but generally mean nothing to students in the real world.

I have a relative who went to Drake. No idea about grades, but I think they were decent. He struggled with unemployment and underemployment for around 5 years post grad but has ended up in a decent small firm setting- I believe mostly insurance defense work. Obviously, an anecdote isn’t data, but I get the impression his experience was pretty typical.

Long story short, I’d lean strongly towards Nebraska. A flagship state school is usually a better bet than non-prestigious private, especially given those scholarship conditions. Law school is busy but you can most set your own schedule. You should have time to visit your kid if you make it a priority.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by LSATWiz.com » Sun May 24, 2020 12:15 pm

Don't go to either expecting to have a job that would allow you to pay back your loans. In this economy, your odds of being a working attorney coming out of either will likely be less than 50/50. That's just the reality. It would be somewhat crazy to change your whole life for a 10% chance at a comfortable living that allows you to repay these loans back than a 5% chance. You need to assume in each instance that you will not come out of law school with a job and be liable for any loans you take out so pick the school that will allow you to be the most successful under the pretense you never practice law.

I'd focus on going to the school that will allow you to have the best time for 3-years without stressing about employment. If you were concerned with employment you would not be considering these schools. These are not schools someone attends if they are serious about practicing law and being able to repay their loans. The best choice would be to retake the LSAT. If you absolutely have to go this year, focus on where you'll have the most fun as the odds are so poor from. all of them that you really don't want to stress yourself out about post-grad employment. On the one hand, it will be a terrible career decision. On the other, you will probably not have to pay much in child support if you attend these schools.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by Uncreative123 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:34 pm

beinghuman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm
Why do you want to go to law school? Do you know for sure that you'd like to work as a public defender? Or as a criminal defense attorney? (Also I'm not sure what space law is...)

I wouldn't advise anyone to attend either school, especially in light of the economic recession that's going to befall us.

Can you wait for a year or two? See if/how the economy rebounds and retake the LSAT?
I cannot wait a year or two. I was initially inspired to become a public defender/wrongful convictions, but I am open to some other areas such as labor/employment law, gen. criminal law, litigation, possibly family law. I have already re-taken the LSAT last week (flex) because on my last LSAT I scored 4-5 points below my consistent PT scores. I do not have high expectations on the outcome. Like many others, I too had problems with the functionality of the test and I "lost connection"/was booted halfway through RC and ended up losing between 3-4 minutes which forced me to rush the last two passages- which were the more difficult ones- and RC is my weakest area.

nealric wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 am
Anyhow, there are precisely zero space law jobs in the areas you want to live, nor are the chances high at all you would get such jobs coming out of regional midwestern law schools. Specialty programs are there to attract students and give professors something to crow about, but generally mean nothing to students in the real world.

I have a relative who went to Drake. No idea about grades, but I think they were decent. He struggled with unemployment and underemployment for around 5 years post grad but has ended up in a decent small firm setting- I believe mostly insurance defense work. Obviously, an anecdote isn’t data, but I get the impression his experience was pretty typical.

Long story short, I’d lean strongly towards Nebraska. A flagship state school is usually a better bet than non-prestigious private, especially given those scholarship conditions. Law school is busy but you can most set your own schedule. You should have time to visit your kid if you make it a priority.
I should clarify, I'm aware there are zero job prospects for Space Law in Nebraska; The school has partnerships set up with NASA, Space X, Boeing, others, and government. Any job in the field would take me out of the mid-west.
"The University of Nebraska has received a $250,000 NASA Space Law pilot-program grant to create a nationwide network of students, faculty and practitioners interested in space law and policy.

“NASA understands workforce development is crucial to the United States’ prosperity in space. We hope to foster a great pool of attorneys to pull their legal workforce from,” said Elsbeth Magilton, executive director of the Space, Cyber and Telecommunications Law program in the University of Nebraska College of Law. “The key objective of the Space Law Network is to implement a system to support, educate and provide opportunities to law students across the country interested in space law and policy.


I'm not worried unemployment/underemployment when it comes to Drake. I've been offered two clerkships already and I have a pretty good feel for the area demand after speaking with a dozen or so attorneys.

LSATWiz.com wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:15 pm
Don't go to either expecting to have a job that would allow you to pay back your loans. In this economy, your odds of being a working attorney coming out of either will likely be less than 50/50. That's just the reality. It would be somewhat crazy to change your whole life for a 10% chance at a comfortable living that allows you to repay these loans back than a 5% chance. You need to assume in each instance that you will not come out of law school with a job and be liable for any loans you take out so pick the school that will allow you to be the most successful under the pretense you never practice law.

I'd focus on going to the school that will allow you to have the best time for 3-years without stressing about employment. If you were concerned with employment you would not be considering these schools. These are not schools someone attends if they are serious about practicing law and being able to repay their loans. The best choice would be to retake the LSAT. If you absolutely have to go this year, focus on where you'll have the most fun as the odds are so poor from. all of them that you really don't want to stress yourself out about post-grad employment. On the one hand, it will be a terrible career decision. On the other, you will probably not have to pay much in child support if you attend these schools.
I wasn't going to take the bait, but I guess I have time to respond. "This economy" is this economy- which is not the economy that exists 3 1/2 years from now. If you've got a crystal ball let me know where to park my money.
"If you were concerned about employment you would not be considering these schools." You're right. That was a huge oversight on my part. I really should have more seriously considered those offers I got from Northwestern and Columbia. But I suppose the upside to this would be that the hundreds of students at these schools aren't concerned about employment either so I if I decided to become concerned I would have a leg up on them. I'd still have to compete with all the Yale and Harvard grads who are flocking to Iowa in droves, but I'll take any advantage I can get. Or maybe I won't. I'm not concerned.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun May 24, 2020 7:12 pm

Uncreative123 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:34 pm
I'm not worried unemployment/underemployment when it comes to Drake. I've been offered two clerkships already and I have a pretty good feel for the area demand after speaking with a dozen or so attorneys.
No, you haven't. I don't know what sort of jobs you've been offered, but you have not been offered a clerkship (not even for the least selective state judge) before being admitted to law school.
Uncreative123 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:34 pm
"If you were concerned about employment you would not be considering these schools." You're right. That was a huge oversight on my part. I really should have more seriously considered those offers I got from Northwestern and Columbia. But I suppose the upside to this would be that the hundreds of students at these schools aren't concerned about employment either so I if I decided to become concerned I would have a leg up on them. I'd still have to compete with all the Yale and Harvard grads who are flocking to Iowa in droves, but I'll take any advantage I can get. Or maybe I won't. I'm not concerned.
Why aren't you concerned about employment? For that matter, why aren't all the other students at Drake? Until last year, over 40% of Drake grads weren't employed as lawyers after graduation. The numbers are only going to get worse in the current economy.

So this all begs the question: Why do you have to go to law school right now? If you think you're going to be an attorney for NASA (or Boeing, or SpaceX) with a UNL JD, you're delusional. If you're focusing on public defense work, that's great, but you need to be clear on where you want to end up, and you clearly haven't made that decision yet. So why now? What happens after this year that prevents you from starting law school, but not from finishing law school or actually practicing law?

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by beinghuman » Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 pm

Alright. I agree with one of the comments above that a state flagship school is probably a better choice than a non-prestigious private school and since you do not risk losing your scholarship at UNL, I'd say that UNL will be less bad of an option than Drake.

This being said, it is still not a good choice.

You are correct that we don't know what the economy will look like in 3.5 years and that you would not be competing with T14 students in the markets you are looking at. But even in a good economy, these schools perform poorly. The danger is that by not doing well in law school, you could make your difficult situation even more difficult. Plus, you might find out that you hate criminal law or public defender work. And you will likely be limited to Nebraska for employment.

Having a clerkship now is no indication of your future success, so I'd urge you not to let that encourage you too much. There's a chance that all you might get after graduation is similar clerkships--and I know someone in that situation.

Those are things to consider when you say that you cannot wait. Because the potential loss could be much worse than simply pursuing a different career. My usual advice to those who cannot wait but feel compelled to take a course of action that has the potential of ruining their lives, is to find another career path unless you know for sure that you'd be fine with the prospects that the school offers.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/nebraska/

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by nealric » Sun May 24, 2020 9:07 pm

You can’t wait a year or two? Did someone put a gun to your head and tell you to matriculate or he’d pull the trigger? I realize it’s very inconvenient, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

As for the retake- how much did you study? If it was not several hundred hours, you sold yourself short. You should be able to recite the types of logic games off the top of your head. If you find doing so tedious... well so is law school.

As far as a $250k space law grant... that’s nice, but that doesn’t mean space law is a remotely realistic possibility for any Nebraska student, regardless of where they want to live.

You have to realize that it will likely be really tough from either school. Someone shooting the breeze and telling you that they’d love to have you for a summer is a far cry from a real full time job offer. That doesn’t mean success isn’t possible, but I just get the impression you aren’t being realistic.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by Uncreative123 » Sun May 24, 2020 11:35 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:12 pm

No, you haven't. I don't know what sort of jobs you've been offered, but you have not been offered a clerkship (not even for the least selective state judge) before being admitted to law school.
Yes, I have.
cavalier1138 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:12 pm
Why aren't you concerned about employment? For that matter, why aren't all the other students at Drake? Until last year, over 40% of Drake grads weren't employed as lawyers after graduation. The numbers are only going to get worse in the current economy.
So this all begs the question: Why do you have to go to law school right now? If you think you're going to be an attorney for NASA (or Boeing, or SpaceX) with a UNL JD, you're delusional. If you're focusing on public defense work, that's great, but you need to be clear on where you want to end up, and you clearly haven't made that decision yet. So why now? What happens after this year that prevents you from starting law school, but not from finishing law school or actually practicing law?
I don't even know where to begin with this. I mean I could start with the fact that you clearly don't understand sarcasm when you read it or I could ask where the hell did you come up with your wildly absurd and completely unsubstantiated claim of 40% of Drake grads not being employed after graduation or I could again call into question your reading comprehension skills because at no point did I ever say that I thought I was going to work for NASA? But what would be the point? You're a moderator for an online forum. If you were even a decent practicing attorney I don't think you'd have the time to pursue your side passion of moderating an online forum. "Those who can't do, [moderate]."

beinghuman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 pm
You are correct that we don't know what the economy will look like in 3.5 years and that you would not be competing with T14 students in the markets you are looking at. But even in a good economy, these schools perform poorly. The danger is that by not doing well in law school, you could make your difficult situation even more difficult. Plus, you might find out that you hate criminal law or public defender work. And you will likely be limited to Nebraska for employment.
That's why I haven't resigned myself to a specific area of law. I understand I could change my mind after the first year of school so I'm leaving it somewhat open.
beinghuman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 pm
Having a clerkship now is no indication of your future success, so I'd urge you not to let that encourage you too much.
Never said it was. Also never said I had one now; I said I was offered one (two).
beinghuman wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 pm
Those are things to consider when you say that you cannot wait. Because the potential loss could be much worse than simply pursuing a different career. My usual advice to those who cannot wait but feel compelled to take a course of action that has the potential of ruining their lives, is to find another career path unless you know for sure that you'd be fine with the prospects that the school offers.
Ruin their lives? You think getting a JD is going to ruin someone's life?

This isn't directed solely at you- I've picked up on it from the majority of responses. I don't know how any of you are in law school or made it through when your responses are based entirely on assumptions.
Why do you assume the potential loss would be worse than my current situation?
Why would you assume what I was doing prior to this was better rather than substantially worse?
Why do you assume adding $30k+ of student loan debt is going to be life ruining? Especially if I can't find a job. What if I already have $125k+ in student loan debt? What if that led to nothing? What if it led me to a job I can always fall back on anytime I want?

nealric wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:07 pm
You can’t wait a year or two? Did someone put a gun to your head and tell you to matriculate or he’d pull the trigger? I realize it’s very inconvenient, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

As for the retake- how much did you study? If it was not several hundred hours, you sold yourself short. You should be able to recite the types of logic games off the top of your head. If you find doing so tedious... well so is law school.

As far as a $250k space law grant... that’s nice, but that doesn’t mean space law is a remotely realistic possibility for any Nebraska student, regardless of where they want to live.

You have to realize that it will likely be really tough from either school. Someone shooting the breeze and telling you that they’d love to have you for a summer is a far cry from a real full time job offer. That doesn’t mean success isn’t possible, but I just get the impression you aren’t being realistic.
Ok.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by beinghuman » Mon May 25, 2020 1:00 am

I'll try to address your counter-points and that'll be my last comment to you.

You say regarding choice of speciality:
That's why I haven't resigned myself to a specific area of law. I understand I could change my mind after the first year of school so I'm leaving it somewhat open.

Response: Fine, but the schools you are looking at will not allow you much flexibility. You assume that you will have options, maybe you will but a big maybe you will not.

You say regarding clerkship offers and success:
Never said it was. Also never said I had one now; I said I was offered one (two).

Response: When you say, you already have offers and know the market, that can easily be read as optimism that you would be fine.

You say: Ruin their lives? You think getting a JD is going to ruin someone's life?

Response: Yes and I know several people in that situation. Imagine you have a job that pays 30-40k, you go to law school, leave 50-200k in debt + whatever previous debt, to return to the same job and pay. So many long turn repercussions will flow from that choice...

You say: I don't know how any of you are in law school or made it through when your responses are based entirely on assumptions.

Response: None of the answers are based on assumptions. Speaking for myself, I have been to law school and I enjoyed it and I think a legal career can be very rewarding but I would only advise going for it in some situations, where it is clear that it will not be a regrettable choice.

You say: Why do you assume the potential loss would be worse than my current situation? Why would you assume what I was doing prior to this was better rather than substantially worse?

Response: We made no assumptions but we are saying that it can be depending on how things pan out for you. Similarly, your post-law school situation might very well be worse. No one said, it necessarily will be so.

You say: Why do you assume adding $30k+ of student loan debt is going to be life ruining? Especially if I can't find a job. What if I already have $125k+ in student loan debt? What if that led to nothing? What if it led me to a job I can always fall back on anytime I want?

Response: Again, we are talking about the possibility. You could be jobless and leave law school jobless + extra debt; if you have debt, you will add debt, lose 3 years, and could still have no job; coming out from the schools you are looking at, the likelihood is that you will struggle to get something. If you do very well, things will likely look different but that is no guarantee.

Good luck!

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by nixy » Mon May 25, 2020 1:05 am

So there may be a communication issue re: clerkship - do you mean a summer job working for a law firm, or a post-grad job working for a judge?

As for the Drake stats about employment before last year, he's probably consulting this graphic:
Image

found at this page: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/drake/jobs/. Note he said that before this year, 40% weren't employed *as lawyers,* not that they weren't employed at all.

As for whether getting a JD ruins someone's life - there is a general assumption that taking on significant amounts of student loan debt (especially if you already have lots) isn't a great move. I don't think that's unreasonable. The other problem with getting a JD is that if you try to get work as a non-lawyer after, it's often harder than it was before you got the JD. If you have a job you can fall back on, that's great, but you'll have wasted 3 years and a lot of money. Maybe that's not literally life-ruining, but it sucks pretty badly.

I'm going to buck the trend and say that it sounds much more like you want to be in Des Moines and so if you're going to one of these two, you should pick Drake. UNL will place you best in Nebraska and all those Drake attorneys in Des Moines will wonder why you went out of state. The conditional scholarship is rotten, but overall Drake is still pretty cheap (certainly if $125k undergrad debt doesn't phase you).

Also, FWIW, here's the 1L curve info:
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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon May 25, 2020 7:13 am

I'm just going to repeat nixy's question, because I think you have a very odd idea of what a "clerkship" is.
nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:05 am
So there may be a communication issue re: clerkship - do you mean a summer job working for a law firm, or a post-grad job working for a judge?
Uncreative123 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:35 pm
I mean I could start with the fact that you clearly don't understand sarcasm when you read it or I could ask where the hell did you come up with your wildly absurd and completely unsubstantiated claim of 40% of Drake grads not being employed after graduation or I could again call into question your reading comprehension skills because at no point did I ever say that I thought I was going to work for NASA?
Your sarcasm seemed to imply that you're not at all concerned about your chances at getting employment out of a school like Drake. As nixy already pointed out, Drake's employment stats are a matter of public record (as are the employment stats for every ABA-accredited law school). And you absolutely did imply that you thought NASA would be a real job opportunity from Nebraska: "
Uncreative123 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:34 pm
I should clarify, I'm aware there are zero job prospects for Space Law in Nebraska; The school has partnerships set up with NASA, Space X, Boeing, others, and government. Any job in the field would take me out of the mid-west.
"The University of Nebraska has received a $250,000 NASA Space Law pilot-program grant to create a nationwide network of students, faculty and practitioners interested in space law and policy.

“NASA understands workforce development is crucial to the United States’ prosperity in space. We hope to foster a great pool of attorneys to pull their legal workforce from,” said Elsbeth Magilton, executive director of the Space, Cyber and Telecommunications Law program in the University of Nebraska College of Law. “The key objective of the Space Law Network is to implement a system to support, educate and provide opportunities to law students across the country interested in space law and policy.”
Uncreative123 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:35 pm
But what would be the point? You're a moderator for an online forum. If you were even a decent practicing attorney I don't think you'd have the time to pursue your side passion of moderating an online forum. "Those who can't do, [moderate]."
Oh. Oh, kiddo. Pretty much every attorney offering you advice on this thread works in a position that you literally cannot get an interview for from either of these schools. The reason no one else is starting a pissing contest over job pedigree is that we're (mostly) not interested in dunking on people who are in a bad situation. You've been given solid advice throughout the thread. If you choose not to listen to it, don't delude yourself into thinking that it's because the attorneys here have less understanding of law school and legal hiring than you do.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by crazywafflez » Mon May 25, 2020 9:51 am

I'll only add that you should not plan on being in the top of your class. I chose my current T1 on the assumption I'd be top of the my class and save money compared to going to a higher ranked school. I'm median. I'm happy my debt load won't be too high, but do not plan on being the top of your class. I'd try and wait one more year and retake & get rid of that conditional scholarship. Best of luck and hope you are able to make a decision that works for you.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by nealric » Mon May 25, 2020 10:21 am

I understand it’s difficult to tell a bunch of strangers about your difficult choice and receive negative feedback. But the people replying to this thread aren’t saying these things because they are trying to make you feel bad.

Choosing one of these schools isn’t necessarily a bad decision, but it is one that carries a significant degree of risk. What the posters here are doing is trying to make sure you understand the risks. Simply ignoring them to feel better about your choice doesn’t help anything.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by Uncreative123 » Mon May 25, 2020 3:28 pm

nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:05 am
So there may be a communication issue re: clerkship - do you mean a summer job working for a law firm, or a post-grad job working for a judge?
Law firm(s), summer continuing into 2L & 3L.
nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:05 am
As for whether getting a JD ruins someone's life - there is a general assumption that taking on significant amounts of student loan debt (especially if you already have lots) isn't a great move. I don't think that's unreasonable. The other problem with getting a JD is that if you try to get work as a non-lawyer after, it's often harder than it was before you got the JD. If you have a job you can fall back on, that's great, but you'll have wasted 3 years and a lot of money. Maybe that's not literally life-ruining, but it sucks pretty badly.

I'm going to buck the trend and say that it sounds much more like you want to be in Des Moines and so if you're going to one of these two, you should pick Drake. UNL will place you best in Nebraska and all those Drake attorneys in Des Moines will wonder why you went out of state. The conditional scholarship is rotten, but overall Drake is still pretty cheap (certainly if $125k undergrad debt doesn't phase you).

Also, FWIW, here's the 1L curve info:
First-year courses, except legal research, must have a mean grade between 2.90 and 3.10, with a median grade of B.

Professors may vary from the above grade distribution, with approval of the
associate dean, by showing raw point distribution or other evidence that
demonstrates that a different distribution is more appropriate.

Where did you find that curve info? That's a little better than I thought. I need a 3.05 to renew in full; 2.95 renews at 1/2; 2.85 @ 10%.
$125k phases me, which is why $30-40k does not. Honestly, even if I wasn't offered any scholarships I would still go to law school because it's something I'm passionate about. How much money I can make with a JD is of little consequence to me. Anyone who lets income dictate their life direction is ultimately not going to have a happy life. If all you care about is how much money you can make then there are much better professions than lawyer.
I went to the #1 music school in the country for my UG because I wanted to. Not because of how much money I thought I could make afterwards. And trust me, I was well aware of how much (or how little) I could end up making before I ever set there. It didn't matter. And it didn't matter if it put me in debt for the rest of my life. How do you put a value cap on your dream? If I was going to do the "smart thing", I would've gone to Iowa State, got a degree in Business/Accounting, landed some safe 9-5 job with an average salary, been completely miserable, and probably (hopefully) dead by 40.

Anticipating the "If you don't care how much it costs then why are you here?" question: Read the OP again. I didn't ask which is the better value; I know which is the better value. Of course I'm still going to try to get the absolute best deal I can, but it's not my primary concern.
crazywafflez wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:51 am
I'll only add that you should not plan on being in the top of your class. I chose my current T1 on the assumption I'd be top of the my class and save money compared to going to a higher ranked school. I'm median. I'm happy my debt load won't be too high, but do not plan on being the top of your class. I'd try and wait one more year and retake & get rid of that conditional scholarship. Best of luck and hope you are able to make a decision that works for you.
I don't and never have anticipated that I'd be at the top of my class. I don't know what it's going to be like. I'm a pessimist so I certainly don't have any delusions of going in there thinking I'll be on top- if I did, I certainly wouldn't have concerned myself with the criteria required to keep a conditional scholarship. And like I said previously, I get the feeling that Drake is far more competitive in part because of the conditional scholarships. Also, again, I've already retaken the LSAT and will have the results on 6/5.
cavalier1138 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:13 am

Oh. Oh, kiddo. Pretty much every attorney offering you advice on this thread works in a position that you literally cannot get an interview for from either of these schools. The reason no one else is starting a pissing contest over job pedigree is that we're (mostly) not interested in dunking on people who are in a bad situation. You've been given solid advice throughout the thread. If you choose not to listen to it, don't delude yourself into thinking that it's because the attorneys here have less understanding of law school and legal hiring than you do.
yOu LiTeRaLLy CaNnoT gEt An InTeRvIeW fOr FrOm EiThEr Of ThEsE sChOoLs.

Nobody gives a shit where you went to school except for you. This isn't just my opinion, this is the rest of the world's opinion- sans a few people on this board I suppose. Kathleen Zellner went to NIU. They're not even RANKED. Do you think anyone gives a shit? Does that somehow lessen her credentials or effectiveness as a lawyer or take millions of dollars out of her account? LOL you're so unaware of how green you are. You're talking to an elitist who went to an elitist school with the most competitive and shitty people on the planet. You're not going to convince me that anyone outside of your frat bros who circle-jerk each other give a shit about what adult day-care center you graduated from. I don't need to have already gone through law school or entered the legal profession to know that your patronizing and nose-thumbing comments equate to absolutely nothing. I've been you before. It's tiring.
Going to law school is like my third? passion in life and I'm basically doing it for my own convenience. Imagine if it was my main focus or goal in life. This is mid-level effort borne out of spite. I just want you to know how little I value your opinion in regards to where I go to school and what you think of said school.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by beepboopbeep » Mon May 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Uncreative123 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:28 pm
Nobody gives a shit where you went to school except for you. This isn't just my opinion, this is the rest of the world's opinion- sans a few people on this board I suppose. Kathleen Zellner went to NIU. They're not even RANKED. Do you think anyone gives a shit? Does that somehow lessen her credentials or effectiveness as a lawyer or take millions of dollars out of her account? LOL you're so unaware of how green you are. You're talking to an elitist who went to an elitist school with the most competitive and shitty people on the planet. You're not going to convince me that anyone outside of your frat bros who circle-jerk each other give a shit about what adult day-care center you graduated from. I don't need to have already gone through law school or entered the legal profession to know that your patronizing and nose-thumbing comments equate to absolutely nothing. I've been you before. It's tiring.
Going to law school is like my third? passion in life and I'm basically doing it for my own convenience. Imagine if it was my main focus or goal in life. This is mid-level effort borne out of spite. I just want you to know how little I value your opinion in regards to where I go to school and what you think of said school.
qfp, hilarious thread op

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by nealric » Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm

Op, the problem is that for better or worse, prospective employers care quite a bit where you went to school. That’s not always an argument in favor of going to an elite school. If you will really be happy as a public defender is Des Moines, then that goal is probably much more obtainable from Drake than Harvard because the folks making those hiring decisions are more likely to be Drake than Harvard alumni.

The question then is what the plan for the debt with a small salary, and the contingency plan if you struggle to find employment. A lot of people in your will be gunning for those jobs, and they will be just as motivated as you.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon May 25, 2020 4:45 pm

Uncreative123 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:28 pm
yOu LiTeRaLLy CaNnoT gEt An InTeRvIeW fOr FrOm EiThEr Of ThEsE sChOoLs.

Nobody gives a shit where you went to school except for you. This isn't just my opinion, this is the rest of the world's opinion- sans a few people on this board I suppose. Kathleen Zellner went to NIU. They're not even RANKED. Do you think anyone gives a shit? Does that somehow lessen her credentials or effectiveness as a lawyer or take millions of dollars out of her account? LOL you're so unaware of how green you are. You're talking to an elitist who went to an elitist school with the most competitive and shitty people on the planet. You're not going to convince me that anyone outside of your frat bros who circle-jerk each other give a shit about what adult day-care center you graduated from. I don't need to have already gone through law school or entered the legal profession to know that your patronizing and nose-thumbing comments equate to absolutely nothing. I've been you before. It's tiring.
Going to law school is like my third? passion in life and I'm basically doing it for my own convenience. Imagine if it was my main focus or goal in life. This is mid-level effort borne out of spite. I just want you to know how little I value your opinion in regards to where I go to school and what you think of said school.
I'm not sure you quite understand. I'm not trying to throw credentials around. I'm not trying to brag. My firm (and based on the other people who are posting here, I am not uniquely situated) has no attorneys who graduated from either of these schools. We don't interview 2Ls from either school. I'm sure it would be possible to lateral after having worked elsewhere, but that's rare.

Like it or not, legal employers care deeply about where you went to school and how you did there (in that order). A median student from UVA will get offers from firms that a student in the top 10% at Drake will struggle to land an interview at. This isn't bragging or some sort of "bro off." It's a sad fact about legal hiring.

Again, you go ahead and throw your money away on this. But please don't enter under the illusion that >40% of your classmates will fail to land jobs after graduation due to their own lack of hustle.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon May 25, 2020 5:03 pm

Uncreative123 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:28 pm
$125k phases me, which is why $30-40k does not. Honestly, even if I wasn't offered any scholarships I would still go to law school because it's something I'm passionate about. How much money I can make with a JD is of little consequence to me. Anyone who lets income dictate their life direction is ultimately not going to have a happy life. If all you care about is how much money you can make then there are much better professions than lawyer.
I went to the #1 music school in the country for my UG because I wanted to. Not because of how much money I thought I could make afterwards. And trust me, I was well aware of how much (or how little) I could end up making before I ever set there. It didn't matter. And it didn't matter if it put me in debt for the rest of my life. How do you put a value cap on your dream? If I was going to do the "smart thing", I would've gone to Iowa State, got a degree in Business/Accounting, landed some safe 9-5 job with an average salary, been completely miserable, and probably (hopefully) dead by 40.
Nobody is saying that more money will make you happy. You need to contend with the obverse: Having negative net worth with no means of escaping that debt will make you unhappy. Tens of thousands in law-school debt will hang on you like a millstone around your neck, constraining your options in life and making any other economic decision feel like swimming in quicksand. You will struggle to provide for your son and for your own retirement.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by omgomghi » Mon May 25, 2020 5:18 pm

This thread is either top-notch trolling or an example of someone’s mind melting down in real time.

OP, if you’re not trolling, you need to take a deep breath and listen to the other posters. You say you don’t like people flashing credentials, but then you turn around and flash (undistinguished) life experience (which is honestly a pretty pathetic move and a symptom of the meltdown). You may have life experience, but you evidently have no experience with law school. That’s fine. That’s why you asked this forum. Now absorb what you’re being told — that’s a pretty basic lawyering skill TBH.

I’ll leave aside the harsh things I could say, but trust me that there are several other red flags in your posts that I and others see, and which inform my response here.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by nixy » Mon May 25, 2020 6:00 pm

Kathleen Zellner graduated from NIU in 1981, when law school cost like $5 a semester and during a completely different employment universe than today. You can’t use her career as a model.

As people have pointed out, you absolutely can get a criminal defense job out of Drake. But it isn’t about how much money you make, it’s how much it costs you to get there. Criminal defense isn’t a high paying field for servicing debt. If you work as a public defender you can work toward loan forgiveness, assuming it doesn’t go away. You’re the only person who can decide what kind of risks you want to take; people here are generally risk averse (comes with being a lawyer).

The curve info came from the Drake student handbook.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by Uncreative123 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:37 pm

nealric wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
Op, the problem is that for better or worse, prospective employers care quite a bit where you went to school.
Do they? You really believe that a middle of the pack Harvard graduate fresh out of school has better job prospects, let's just say in whistleblower law, over an attorney who went to some unranked school but has won multiple cases, some with awards in excess of $150 million? And you're committing to that statement? *This is a real example by the way, which I can answer for you if you want.
nealric wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
The question then is what the plan for the debt with a small salary, and the contingency plan if you struggle to find employment. A lot of people in your will be gunning for those jobs, and they will be just as motivated as you.
You (and others) have to read posts in their entirety, my man. If I'm already struggling with a six-figure student loan debt, then how much of a difference is another $30k really going to make? What- I have to get Great Value brand ramen now instead of top-shelf name brand ramen? And if I'm not struggling with a six-figure student loan debt, somehow all of a sudden $30k is going to leave me poverty stricken?

cavalier1138 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:45 pm
I'm not sure you quite understand. I'm not trying to throw credentials around. I'm not trying to brag. My firm (and based on the other people who are posting here, I am not uniquely situated) has no attorneys who graduated from either of these schools. We don't interview 2Ls from either school. I'm sure it would be possible to lateral after having worked elsewhere, but that's rare.

Like it or not, legal employers care deeply about where you went to school and how you did there (in that order). A median student from UVA will get offers from firms that a student in the top 10% at Drake will struggle to land an interview at. This isn't bragging or some sort of "bro off." It's a sad fact about legal hiring.

Again, you go ahead and throw your money away on this. But please don't enter under the illusion that >40% of your classmates will fail to land jobs after graduation due to their own lack of hustle.
Well which is it? Is it their lack of hustle or that they went to a low-tier school? Or are you making a false equivalency that they are one in the same?

You are throwing credentials around. Your entire premise is based on the importance of a singular credential (two, if you're counting class rank now). Of what importance is it that "your firm" hasn't hired anyone that graduated from these schools? (Please- if you answer nothing else, make it that question.) Did you think I was interested or would want a position at your firm? ::Insert predictable remark about how you'd never hire me anyway::
I'm just curious, not being facetious or anything, can you explain the difference in the educated subject material from Yale vs. Drake without referencing alumni as part of your explanation? Does their law library have hidden books with secret proprietary information that can't be obtained anywhere else or something? Do they teach you how to become a sommelier of your own farts? What is it exactly? Dumb it down for me. Talk to me as if I'm completely clueless. You know, basically the same way you have been so far.

Here's a real brain teaser for you: Do you think Harvard/Columbia/Yale/Circle-jerk U produce so many successfully lawyers because they're such great institutions? Or do you think the people who gained admission are of such skill and intellect that they could have succeeded even if they went to Cal- Hastings?
From everything I've ever seen, aside from Legally Blonde, it seems like those top tier schools only take really smart, capable people. I think it would be more of a testament to the greatness of these institutions if they could take a dummy like me and turn them into someone (or something) that would be worthy of an interview at your prestigious firm.
Also- what do you in the event that you have two prospective job seekers- one graduated from Harvard, one graduated from Stanford- But at the time the Harvard graduate was admitted Harvard was ranked #3 while Stanford was ranked #2, but by the time each had graduated, Harvard was ranked #2 again pushing Stanford back to #3, *but also* now in current year, Stanford is back to #2 and Harvard is #3. What do you do? Do you like try to gauge their intellect individually or something? Look on their resume for something besides the school they went to? Do their resumes even have anything aside from the rank and school they went to?


The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:03 pm

Nobody is saying that more money will make you happy. You need to contend with the obverse: Having negative net worth with no means of escaping that debt will make you unhappy. Tens of thousands in law-school debt will hang on you like a millstone around your neck, constraining your options in life and making any other economic decision feel like swimming in quicksand. You will struggle to provide for your son and for your own retirement.
I dunno. I may have negative net worth right now with no way out and currently be pretty happy. I feel like if you go back and read what I wrote about my current student loan status you could more accurately gauge how I perceive the threat of additional tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

omgomghi wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:18 pm
This thread is either top-notch trolling or an example of someone’s mind melting down in real time.

OP, if you’re not trolling, you need to take a deep breath and listen to the other posters. You say you don’t like people flashing credentials, but then you turn around and flash (undistinguished) life experience (which is honestly a pretty pathetic move and a symptom of the meltdown). You may have life experience, but you evidently have no experience with law school. That’s fine. That’s why you asked this forum. Now absorb what you’re being told — that’s a pretty basic lawyering skill TBH.

I’ll leave aside the harsh things I could say, but trust me that there are several other red flags in your posts that I and others see, and which inform my response here.
It's interesting that you find my comments about not giving a shit about where someone went to school as being symptomatic of a meltdown. As long as you're playing psychologist you should consider what that reveals about you. That, in conjunction with the fact that you felt it necessary to mention that others (not just yourself) see it too.
I don't know what the rest of your post is about or if it's some random incoherent thought or was meant for a different thread.
nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:00 pm
Kathleen Zellner graduated from NIU in 1981, when law school cost like $5 a semester and during a completely different employment universe than today. You can’t use her career as a model.
Sorry, did NIU use to be a T14 school or something? What does the cost of law school in 1981 have to do with its ranking amongst other schools? Same question but for "employment universe".

I used her as an example of a successful high-profile attorney coming from a low-ranked/unranked school. I don't know what you're doing.
nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:00 pm
As people have pointed out, you absolutely can get a criminal defense job out of Drake. But it isn’t about how much money you make, it’s how much it costs you to get there. Criminal defense isn’t a high paying field for servicing debt. If you work as a public defender you can work toward loan forgiveness, assuming it doesn’t go away. You’re the only person who can decide what kind of risks you want to take; people here are generally risk averse (comes with being a lawyer).
Yeah, you've definitely missed the point.
That's what "it" is for you- not me.

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Re: Can't make a decision; at a dead end

Post by muskman » Mon May 25, 2020 10:55 pm

Uncreative123 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:37 pm
nealric wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
Op, the problem is that for better or worse, prospective employers care quite a bit where you went to school.
Do they? You really believe that a middle of the pack Harvard graduate fresh out of school has better job prospects, let's just say in whistleblower law, over an attorney who went to some unranked school but has won multiple cases, some with awards in excess of $150 million? And you're committing to that statement? *This is a real example by the way, which I can answer for you if you want.
nealric wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:01 pm
The question then is what the plan for the debt with a small salary, and the contingency plan if you struggle to find employment. A lot of people in your will be gunning for those jobs, and they will be just as motivated as you.
You (and others) have to read posts in their entirety, my man. If I'm already struggling with a six-figure student loan debt, then how much of a difference is another $30k really going to make? What- I have to get Great Value brand ramen now instead of top-shelf name brand ramen? And if I'm not struggling with a six-figure student loan debt, somehow all of a sudden $30k is going to leave me poverty stricken?

cavalier1138 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:45 pm
I'm not sure you quite understand. I'm not trying to throw credentials around. I'm not trying to brag. My firm (and based on the other people who are posting here, I am not uniquely situated) has no attorneys who graduated from either of these schools. We don't interview 2Ls from either school. I'm sure it would be possible to lateral after having worked elsewhere, but that's rare.

Like it or not, legal employers care deeply about where you went to school and how you did there (in that order). A median student from UVA will get offers from firms that a student in the top 10% at Drake will struggle to land an interview at. This isn't bragging or some sort of "bro off." It's a sad fact about legal hiring.

Again, you go ahead and throw your money away on this. But please don't enter under the illusion that >40% of your classmates will fail to land jobs after graduation due to their own lack of hustle.
Well which is it? Is it their lack of hustle or that they went to a low-tier school? Or are you making a false equivalency that they are one in the same?

You are throwing credentials around. Your entire premise is based on the importance of a singular credential (two, if you're counting class rank now). Of what importance is it that "your firm" hasn't hired anyone that graduated from these schools? (Please- if you answer nothing else, make it that question.) Did you think I was interested or would want a position at your firm? ::Insert predictable remark about how you'd never hire me anyway::
I'm just curious, not being facetious or anything, can you explain the difference in the educated subject material from Yale vs. Drake without referencing alumni as part of your explanation? Does their law library have hidden books with secret proprietary information that can't be obtained anywhere else or something? Do they teach you how to become a sommelier of your own farts? What is it exactly? Dumb it down for me. Talk to me as if I'm completely clueless. You know, basically the same way you have been so far.

Here's a real brain teaser for you: Do you think Harvard/Columbia/Yale/Circle-jerk U produce so many successfully lawyers because they're such great institutions? Or do you think the people who gained admission are of such skill and intellect that they could have succeeded even if they went to Cal- Hastings?
From everything I've ever seen, aside from Legally Blonde, it seems like those top tier schools only take really smart, capable people. I think it would be more of a testament to the greatness of these institutions if they could take a dummy like me and turn them into someone (or something) that would be worthy of an interview at your prestigious firm.
Also- what do you in the event that you have two prospective job seekers- one graduated from Harvard, one graduated from Stanford- But at the time the Harvard graduate was admitted Harvard was ranked #3 while Stanford was ranked #2, but by the time each had graduated, Harvard was ranked #2 again pushing Stanford back to #3, *but also* now in current year, Stanford is back to #2 and Harvard is #3. What do you do? Do you like try to gauge their intellect individually or something? Look on their resume for something besides the school they went to? Do their resumes even have anything aside from the rank and school they went to?


The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:03 pm

Nobody is saying that more money will make you happy. You need to contend with the obverse: Having negative net worth with no means of escaping that debt will make you unhappy. Tens of thousands in law-school debt will hang on you like a millstone around your neck, constraining your options in life and making any other economic decision feel like swimming in quicksand. You will struggle to provide for your son and for your own retirement.
I dunno. I may have negative net worth right now with no way out and currently be pretty happy. I feel like if you go back and read what I wrote about my current student loan status you could more accurately gauge how I perceive the threat of additional tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

omgomghi wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:18 pm
This thread is either top-notch trolling or an example of someone’s mind melting down in real time.

OP, if you’re not trolling, you need to take a deep breath and listen to the other posters. You say you don’t like people flashing credentials, but then you turn around and flash (undistinguished) life experience (which is honestly a pretty pathetic move and a symptom of the meltdown). You may have life experience, but you evidently have no experience with law school. That’s fine. That’s why you asked this forum. Now absorb what you’re being told — that’s a pretty basic lawyering skill TBH.

I’ll leave aside the harsh things I could say, but trust me that there are several other red flags in your posts that I and others see, and which inform my response here.
It's interesting that you find my comments about not giving a shit about where someone went to school as being symptomatic of a meltdown. As long as you're playing psychologist you should consider what that reveals about you. That, in conjunction with the fact that you felt it necessary to mention that others (not just yourself) see it too.
I don't know what the rest of your post is about or if it's some random incoherent thought or was meant for a different thread.
nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:00 pm
Kathleen Zellner graduated from NIU in 1981, when law school cost like $5 a semester and during a completely different employment universe than today. You can’t use her career as a model.
Sorry, did NIU use to be a T14 school or something? What does the cost of law school in 1981 have to do with its ranking amongst other schools? Same question but for "employment universe".

I used her as an example of a successful high-profile attorney coming from a low-ranked/unranked school. I don't know what you're doing.
nixy wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:00 pm
As people have pointed out, you absolutely can get a criminal defense job out of Drake. But it isn’t about how much money you make, it’s how much it costs you to get there. Criminal defense isn’t a high paying field for servicing debt. If you work as a public defender you can work toward loan forgiveness, assuming it doesn’t go away. You’re the only person who can decide what kind of risks you want to take; people here are generally risk averse (comes with being a lawyer).
Yeah, you've definitely missed the point.
That's what "it" is for you- not me.
If you have all the answers down pat, why did you decide to query strangers anonymously? You seem to have it all figured out so don’t listen to anyone in the legal industry, follow your dreams wherever they may lead (to the moon with NASA or unemployment and debt....)!

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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