U of Dayton?

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iseah100

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U of Dayton?

Post by iseah100 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:25 am

Hi All,

I have wanted to go to Law School for a long time. I currently live in NE Indiana and I can’t quit my job because I need it, obviously. I don’t really want to leave my family here in Indiana either, we are really close and leaving does not appeal to me. Dayton’s online program really intrigues me because of cost, proximity, etc. I want to practice in here in Indiana and live here. Would you all recommend going here for my long term goals? Want to be in public interest or patent law or become part of the counsel for the company I currently work for.

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cavalier1138

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:01 am

iseah100 wrote:Want to be in public interest or patent law or become part of the counsel for the company I currently work for.
Unless you'd be doing patent work for your current company, those are all radically different goals. And patent work usually requires some kind of prior experience and/or a graduate degree in a relevant STEM field, so you'll need that. But realistically, the only realistic career if you go to an online program is going to be returning to your company as in-house counsel. And that's something you should discuss with your company before you start law school.

Almost half of Dayton graduates can't even get jobs as lawyers after graduation. It's unlikely that their online program fares better. If you don't have the proper background for patents, that won't be an option at all. And if you don't actually give yourself the opportunity to attend networking events, internships, etc., you're unlikely to be a serious contender for PI jobs. So that leaves working for your company, and you need a promise from them (in writing) that you'd be able to return before I'd consider that to be a legitimate option.

That said, your post starts with an incorrect premise:
iseah100 wrote:I currently live in NE Indiana and I can’t quit my job because I need it, obviously.
Why do you assume you need to keep your job? Lots of people leave their work to go to law school full-time, and doing so would allow you to attend a reputable institution that gives you a reasonable shot at working as a lawyer (i.e. not Dayton).

decimalsanddollars

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by decimalsanddollars » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:09 am

Like Cav, I wouldn't recommend going unless your company wants you to take this specific route. I second his advice generally, as well as his skepticism about how you're approaching the law school decision. Assuming you want proximity to, say, Fort Wayne, I strongly encourage at least considering full-time programs at University of Michigan, Notre Dame, Chicago, Northwestern, and IU-Bloomington. If you must go part-time, there are options in Lansing (Michigan State), Indianapolis (IU-McKinney), and other cities in the area that would place better than Dayton's hybrid program for real legal jobs. If you're going to a regional school, particularly if you "need" your current job or another full-time job while you attend, you need to make sure you go for free, most likely by increasing your LSAT to the range where the school would give a full-tuition merit scholarship.

I happen to have a friend who's in the middle of UDayton's hybrid program, which has some online and some in-person attendance. I assume that's what you're referring to. PM me if you want their perspective/contact.

iseah100

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by iseah100 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:27 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
iseah100 wrote:Want to be in public interest or patent law or become part of the counsel for the company I currently work for.
Unless you'd be doing patent work for your current company, those are all radically different goals. And patent work usually requires some kind of prior experience and/or a graduate degree in a relevant STEM field, so you'll need that. But realistically, the only realistic career if you go to an online program is going to be returning to your company as in-house counsel. And that's something you should discuss with your company before you start law school.

Almost half of Dayton graduates can't even get jobs as lawyers after graduation. It's unlikely that their online program fares better. If you don't have the proper background for patents, that won't be an option at all. And if you don't actually give yourself the opportunity to attend networking events, internships, etc., you're unlikely to be a serious contender for PI jobs. So that leaves working for your company, and you need a promise from them (in writing) that you'd be able to return before I'd consider that to be a legitimate option.

That said, your post starts with an incorrect premise:
iseah100 wrote:I currently live in NE Indiana and I can’t quit my job because I need it, obviously.
Why do you assume you need to keep your job? Lots of people leave their work to go to law school full-time, and doing so would allow you to attend a reputable institution that gives you a reasonable shot at working as a lawyer (i.e. not Dayton).

Sorry I didn't mean patent, I meant public interest law. I don't want to do patent. I understand that i CAN leave my job, but my family is going through a lot and I don't really want to leave. I live in Fort Wayne and IU McKinney has classes every day. I can't afford to leave. I don't have parents or family who can support me so it's a unique situation. My LSAT score was 158 and I went to a local college, not a big uni.

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cavalier1138

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:04 pm

iseah100 wrote:Sorry I didn't mean patent, I meant public interest law. I don't want to do patent. I understand that i CAN leave my job, but my family is going through a lot and I don't really want to leave. I live in Fort Wayne and IU McKinney has classes every day. I can't afford to leave. I don't have parents or family who can support me so it's a unique situation. My LSAT score was 158 and I went to a local college, not a big uni.
So this is still confusing me. Lots of people go to law school without family to support them. You just have to take out loans (something you'll probably have to do for a part-time program anyway, unless you have a significantly better salary than you've implied). Where you went to college is irrelevant; only your GPA matters in that regard. And your LSAT can be improved if you need to improve it.

But this post mainly makes me wonder what you actually want to do with your law degree. It sounds like you want a JD, but not enough to move, take out loans, or leave your current job for. And assuming you get the degree, it's not clear to me how you'll start your practice if your current job won't take you on as counsel. Do you have any specific plans for that?

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iseah100

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by iseah100 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:35 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
iseah100 wrote:Sorry I didn't mean patent, I meant public interest law. I don't want to do patent. I understand that i CAN leave my job, but my family is going through a lot and I don't really want to leave. I live in Fort Wayne and IU McKinney has classes every day. I can't afford to leave. I don't have parents or family who can support me so it's a unique situation. My LSAT score was 158 and I went to a local college, not a big uni.
So this is still confusing me. Lots of people go to law school without family to support them. You just have to take out loans (something you'll probably have to do for a part-time program anyway, unless you have a significantly better salary than you've implied). Where you went to college is irrelevant; only your GPA matters in that regard. And your LSAT can be improved if you need to improve it.

But this post mainly makes me wonder what you actually want to do with your law degree. It sounds like you want a JD, but not enough to move, take out loans, or leave your current job for. And assuming you get the degree, it's not clear to me how you'll start your practice if your current job won't take you on as counsel. Do you have any specific plans for that?

I don't want to take out loans and go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I want to live and be in my hometown with my family. They are all getting older and I want to stay, I don't think that should keep me from practicing. I have a good enough salary where I can start preparing to buy a house.

I want to practice law. I want to help under served communities and make sure minorities do not receive the short end of the stick. I want to do that on the side, but understand I need to do something else to make a living. There are quite a few people in my area who went to Dayton Law. I'm not trying to argue, I just wanted to know what everyone's thoughts were on U of Dayton.

decimalsanddollars

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by decimalsanddollars » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:36 pm

Going back to your original post, you asked if we'd recommend U Dayton online/hybrid for your "long term goals," but you didn't say what they were, other than continuing to live and work in Indiana, which you can do without a law degree. If your goal was to *practice law* in Indiana, I would say that U Dayton online/hybrid would not help you achieve your long-term goals in that it wouldn't really enable you to get legal employment, especially outside of Dayton (which is not in Indiana).

iseah100

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by iseah100 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:45 pm

decimalsanddollars wrote:Going back to your original post, you asked if we'd recommend U Dayton online/hybrid for your "long term goals," but you didn't say what they were, other than continuing to live and work in Indiana, which you can do without a law degree. If your goal was to *practice law* in Indiana, I would say that U Dayton online/hybrid would not help you achieve your long-term goals in that it wouldn't really enable you to get legal employment, especially outside of Dayton (which is not in Indiana).
You don't think I can get legal employment in Indiana with a degree from Dayton? Why is that if you do not mind me asking?

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cavalier1138

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:26 pm

iseah100 wrote:
decimalsanddollars wrote:Going back to your original post, you asked if we'd recommend U Dayton online/hybrid for your "long term goals," but you didn't say what they were, other than continuing to live and work in Indiana, which you can do without a law degree. If your goal was to *practice law* in Indiana, I would say that U Dayton online/hybrid would not help you achieve your long-term goals in that it wouldn't really enable you to get legal employment, especially outside of Dayton (which is not in Indiana).
You don't think I can get legal employment in Indiana with a degree from Dayton? Why is that if you do not mind me asking?
Because, as mentioned earlier, almost half of full-time Dayton students can't get jobs as lawyers after graduation. And Dayton's network (unsurprisingly) isn't in Indiana. If that's the case for the full-time program, you can generally assume that it's even worse for students in the hybrid program who don't already have jobs waiting for them after graduation.
iseah100 wrote:I don't want to take out loans and go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I want to live and be in my hometown with my family. They are all getting older and I want to stay, I don't think that should keep me from practicing. I have a good enough salary where I can start preparing to buy a house.

I want to practice law. I want to help under served communities and make sure minorities do not receive the short end of the stick. I want to do that on the side, but understand I need to do something else to make a living. There are quite a few people in my area who went to Dayton Law. I'm not trying to argue, I just wanted to know what everyone's thoughts were on U of Dayton.
I've been trying to be tactful about this, but to be clear: You aren't getting it. You don't need to take out $100k in loans to go to law school. There's nothing wrong with wanting to end up practicing law where you currently live, but that doesn't mean you're locked into a program like Dayton's. You can practice locally by going to a decent program on a full scholarship (easily achievable if you bump up your LSAT a few points) and using your time in school to build up a local network to return and practice.

Additionally, you need to be clear on the time commitment required for practice. Legal practice isn't a side-hustle. You can't keep your current job and occasionally do some public interest work on the side. If you want to be a lawyer, you need to commit to being a lawyer. And if you're not willing to give up your current job to be a lawyer, then I'd strongly suggest not going to law school. There are other ways to help underserved communities that don't involve switching careers.

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iseah100

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by iseah100 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:55 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
iseah100 wrote:
decimalsanddollars wrote:Going back to your original post, you asked if we'd recommend U Dayton online/hybrid for your "long term goals," but you didn't say what they were, other than continuing to live and work in Indiana, which you can do without a law degree. If your goal was to *practice law* in Indiana, I would say that U Dayton online/hybrid would not help you achieve your long-term goals in that it wouldn't really enable you to get legal employment, especially outside of Dayton (which is not in Indiana).
You don't think I can get legal employment in Indiana with a degree from Dayton? Why is that if you do not mind me asking?
Because, as mentioned earlier, almost half of full-time Dayton students can't get jobs as lawyers after graduation. And Dayton's network (unsurprisingly) isn't in Indiana. If that's the case for the full-time program, you can generally assume that it's even worse for students in the hybrid program who don't already have jobs waiting for them after graduation.
iseah100 wrote:I don't want to take out loans and go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I want to live and be in my hometown with my family. They are all getting older and I want to stay, I don't think that should keep me from practicing. I have a good enough salary where I can start preparing to buy a house.

I want to practice law. I want to help under served communities and make sure minorities do not receive the short end of the stick. I want to do that on the side, but understand I need to do something else to make a living. There are quite a few people in my area who went to Dayton Law. I'm not trying to argue, I just wanted to know what everyone's thoughts were on U of Dayton.
I've been trying to be tactful about this, but to be clear: You aren't getting it. You don't need to take out $100k in loans to go to law school. There's nothing wrong with wanting to end up practicing law where you currently live, but that doesn't mean you're locked into a program like Dayton's. You can practice locally by going to a decent program on a full scholarship (easily achievable if you bump up your LSAT a few points) and using your time in school to build up a local network to return and practice.

Additionally, you need to be clear on the time commitment required for practice. Legal practice isn't a side-hustle. You can't keep your current job and occasionally do some public interest work on the side. If you want to be a lawyer, you need to commit to being a lawyer. And if you're not willing to give up your current job to be a lawyer, then I'd strongly suggest not going to law school. There are other ways to help underserved communities that don't involve switching careers.

Okay, thank you for all your help. I will reach out to the chief legal counsel at the company I am currently employed and unless he can assure me of a position in the future I will likely not attend Dayton. Thank you. And again, I did not mean to get argumentative.

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cavalier1138

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Re: U of Dayton?

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:18 pm

iseah100 wrote:Okay, thank you for all your help. I will reach out to the chief legal counsel at the company I am currently employed and unless he can assure me of a position in the future I will likely not attend Dayton. Thank you. And again, I did not mean to get argumentative.
Nothing wrong with getting argumentative. That's what a large chunk of us get paid to do.

I think you're making the right decision. Again, this doesn't mean you should never go to law school. You just need to have a realistic picture of your career goals and what you can realistically expect from any given program.

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