Stanford, Columbia, or Michigan? Forum

[tenpercent]

Hello everyone. I posted something similar awhile back but I got into Stanford and my other $ numbers have been solidified.

Goal is likely FC->BL->In house, but could be open to government positions (AUSA). I’m trying to leave my options open.

I would like to work out west, Colorado being ideal but California being acceptable. I would consider Chicago as well.

I was waitlisted at every T14 but these three. All COA’s include undergrad debt.

Stanford: COA ~150k

Columbia: ~80k

Michigan: +60k (graduate with no debt and around this much in the bank, assuming it doesn’t burn a hole in my pocket).

Thanks for the help!

[cali7802000]

PM sent

[Platopus]

Stanford is fair at that price and does well with FC placement. With the goal of ending up on the West Coast, I think this is a no brainer

[B90]

First, huge disclaimer: I would have given a kidney, lung, and any other donatable organ to attend SLS.
I am extremely biased/partial to Stanford. I am from the area (went to high school across the street).

That said, IMHO SLS would be worth the extra $ and investment in your situation. CA, and Palo Alto in particular are VERY different from MI and NY. If your goal is CO or the west coast, I think SLS is the superior choice. For me, the biggest advantage is you are in the same time zone. I moved to Boston for undergrad and have remained here. Most of my family is in CA, some in the midwest.
I bring that up because the biggest thing I didn't know/wished I had known is that law school and really your legal career is one giant, continuous job search. Starting November1st of 1L, you will constantly be tweaking your resume, writing cover letters, emailing HR departments, trying to line up and (hopefully) go on interviews, networking with people in your intended practice area, etc.
I know from personal experience this is 1,000× more difficult to do in another time zone, let alone the opposite coast.

[B90]

Also, pardon my ignorance but what does FC stand for?

[Platopus]

Also, pardon my ignorance but what does FC stand for?

Federal clerkship

[AdieuCali]

Also, pardon my ignorance but what does FC stand for?

Fed clerkship

[AdieuCali]

Goal is likely FC->BL->In house, but could be open to government positions (AUSA). I’m trying to leave my options open.

I would like to work out west, Colorado being ideal but California being acceptable. I would consider Chicago as well.

I was waitlisted at every T14 but these three. All COA’s include undergrad debt.

Stanford: COA ~150k

Columbia: ~80k

Michigan: +60k (graduate with no debt and around this much in the bank, assuming it doesn’t burn a hole in my pocket).

Thanks for the help!

Congratulations on such an amazing dilemma! I think in a vacuum, 150k is a reasonable amount to pay for SLS, considering its dominance of the West Coast market, higher likelihood of 9th Cir. clerkships, and QOL in Palo Alto.

That being said, you have relatively modest goals (considering the options you have available) and I'm not sure S is worth $210k more than Michigan. If you were gunning for SCOTUS, academia, impact lit boutique, int'l human rights, etc., then SLS would be the obvious choice. But if you just want West Coast clerk -> BL -> in-house, that's achievable from Michigan. Especially with the additional faculty support and networking opportunities from the Darrow. I'm at UVA and I have friends who were able to land Denver BL with minimal connections to the market. I also had multiple California offers though I ultimately decided to stay on the East Coast.

Graduating completely debt free means you can take some lower-paying jobs to break into the Denver market if you aren't able to land BL or FC right away, such as going for Colo. supreme court -> D. Co/9th Cir. -> Colo. BL or Denver AUSA. Denver BL offices tend to pay under NY market, so you'll need to stretch to pay off the 150k.

I don't think Columbia gives you that much of an advantage compared to Michigan IMHO. But I don't think you can go wrong with SLS or the Darrow.

[B90]

Also, pardon my ignorance but what does FC stand for?

Federal clerkship

Thanx. I knew it was probably obvious.

[Sackboy]

I'd pick Stanford here. $150k is a very reasonable price, and the ~30% FC rate + non-numerical grades is something that should give you a very real chance at clerking. If not SLS, I'd pick Michigan, because the money looks great.

[tenpercent]

Graduating completely debt free means you can take some lower-paying jobs to break into the Denver market if you aren't able to land BL or FC right away, such as going for Colo. supreme court -> D. Co/9th Cir. -> Colo. BL or Denver AUSA. Denver BL offices tend to pay under NY market, so you'll need to stretch to pay off the 150k.

I don't think Columbia gives you that much of an advantage compared to Michigan IMHO. But I don't think you can go wrong with SLS or the Darrow.

Just to clarify, I don’t actually have the Darrow so any increased networking that it provides will be unavailable to me. I’m not sure if that changes your calculus or not.

[crazywafflez]

Congrats on your outcomes! Normally, I'd pick Mich- however, SLS basically grants you anything, just about anywhere. Plus, with your interest in CO, and the West in general, I think it is the right choice. I don't think you can go wrong with any of your choices though I wouldn't pick Columbia over the other two, I can see it stillbeing a defensible choice. With your interests though, and for the cost, I'd pick SLS.

[QContinuum]

First, CONGRATS! You have three terrific options in hand.

Now, as others ITT have said, you can basically rule Columbia out right off the bat. Columbia's not worth $140k more than Mich.

So we're down to Stanford and Michigan. I think it really comes down to what you want when you say your goals are "FC->BL->maybe AUSA/maybe in-house". If your goals are "clerking somewhere on the West Coast, generic market-paying BigLaw, followed by generic six-figure in-house position with more reasonable hours", then I think Michigan all the way. No need to shell out an extra $210k for Stanford. Repaying $210k in debt - even on a BigLaw salary - won't be fun. Remember, you will be repaying more than $210k when you factor in interest, and you'll also be repaying that money out of your post-tax dollars (i.e., on a $190k starting BigLaw salary in NorCal, you'd probably be taking home $100k after taxes and 401k savings - and your rent, car/utility/phone/Internet/cable bills, personal travel, etc. will all come out of that $100k). $210k in loans will likely require >$300k in post-tax money to repay - in other words, >$500k in total salary dollars once you consider that $200k out of that $500k will vanish to state and federal taxes.

If, on the other hand, your raison d'etre for attending law school is "clerking on the 9th Circuit, a serious try for SCOTUS or a law professorship, followed by working at Munger or Irell, followed by becoming an AUSA in ND Cal or maybe a second try at a law professorship"... then yeah, you basically need Stanford for that. These outcomes are achievable from Michigan, but much much more plausible and realistic (though still far from guaranteed) from Stanford.

So I'd really think things through, in terms of what your desires and priorities are. If the 9th Circuit clerkship/prestigious litigation boutique/prestigious AUSA gig route sounds like your dream career, then absolutely rational and defensible to choose Stanford to maximize your odds at achieving that outcome, subject to your own risk and debt tolerance. But if your goals are more "get a good job, make a good living" with BigLaw/in-house or BigLaw/federal prosecutor, then Michigan's the easy choice here.

Best of luck. Either way you choose, you will have a great career ahead of you, so there's really no "bad choice" here.

[AdieuCali]

Just to clarify, I don’t actually have the Darrow so any increased networking that it provides will be unavailable to me. I’m not sure if that changes your calculus or not.

How are you calculating COA? Spefically how did you get to +$60k at UM. Are you factoring in potential summer associate pay? Did you negotiate a non-Darrow stipend from UM? Parents liquidating a 529 or trust regardless of where you go?

Like I said before, I don't think it's unreasonable to pay $150k for SLS. But I'm going to make the affirmative case for taking the money at UM because: 1) I'm a 3L who just did my federal loan exit counseling and I'm keenly aware of the weight of student loans; 2) others have made a strong case for SLS; and 3) I'm bored.

1) Debt
I encourage you to play around with https://studentaid.gov/loan-simulator/ or other student loan calculators. You'll either have to pay ~$1,750/mo. for 10 years to service that $150k or become a biglaw miser who throws away most of your post-tax income to pay it off quickly.

$1,750/mo is a decent apartment in Denver, the lease on a luxury car (or two), easier international travel, down payment on a house, save & invest until you get f***-you money - IOW not having to pay that each month means you can actually live like you make $190k+.

Additionally, if you decide to go the PI route, SLS's LRAP is nothing spectacular. It's not like NYU's or Yale's where you can afford to live a comfortable life as a public servant while still servicing a massive amount of debt. A good chunk of your income over $55k (for the decade following graduation) will go to pay off your loans.

2) Career outcomes
Like I said before, the $200k difference between SLS and UM might be justified if you were interested in hyper-prestigious outcomes that are possible (though not guaranteed) from SLS - academia, 2/9/DC COA clerkships, impact lit, ACLU, etc.

But your goals - BL in a high-QOL state, clerkship, cush in-house job - are pretty typical and achievable for someone slightly above median at any of the top 10 schools. They would be easier to achieve from SLS, but idk if $200k is worth changing a possible desired outcome to a definite one. Especially considering that your worst-case options out of Michigan are NY, Chi, or SF BL.

To answer your question, I think the Darrow is a nice feather in your cap and a hand-up, but I don't think it changes your overall odds of landing your desired outcomes significantly.

Denver is like other small West Coast high-QOL markets (PDX, SD, Seattle, Austin) where ties/connections are more important than pedigree. Anecdotally, I was a 1L SA at a V30 firm in SD. About half of the 1L & 2L SAs were at East Coast T13 schools and the other half were at Berk, UCLA, and USC (no SLS grads). But all of us had lived in SD for at least 3-4 years.

I looked up some of the Denver BL offices on NALP and SLS does not appear to have a definite advantage. Here are the number of attorneys per office from each school:
Bryan Cave - 0 SLS, 5 UM
Perkins Coie - 1 SLS, 0 UM
Dorsey & Whitney - 0 SLS, 1 UM
Nelson Mullins - 0 SLS, 1 UM
H&K - 0 SLS, 1 UM
MoFo - 1 SLS, 1 UM
Hogan Lovells - 2 SLS, 2 UM

If you have good ties to CO (grew up there, lived there for a few years, went to school there), then you probably have some pretty good "ins" to Denver biglaw or D. Col. clerkships from UM. If you don't have the connections now, you can start building connections in the region. Get a PI internship with Denver US Atty or SEC branch office during for your 1L summer. Don't land Denver at OCI? After graduation, consider that state courts and flyover federal districts are desperate for T13 grads. There are worse ways to spend a year than fed clerking in Billings or Boise or clerking at the Colorado state supreme court. And with no debt, you'll have plenty of income left over to afford lift tickets.

I don't think you can go wrong choosing between SLS and UM. (CLS should be thrown out of the equation) I think your job search will definitely be easier at SLS and you will get a prestige boost throughout your career, but your goals are perfectly achievable from Michigan and your wallet will thank you later.

[tenpercent]

Just to clarify, I don’t actually have the Darrow so any increased networking that it provides will be unavailable to me. I’m not sure if that changes your calculus or not.

How are you calculating COA? Spefically how did you get to +$60k at UM. Are you factoring in potential summer associate pay? Did you negotiate a non-Darrow stipend from UM? Parents liquidating a 529 or trust regardless of where you go?

Like I said before, I don't think it's unreasonable to pay $150k for SLS. But I'm going to make the affirmative case for taking the money at UM because: 1) I'm a 3L who just did my federal loan exit counseling and I'm keenly aware of the weight of student loans; 2) others have made a strong case for SLS; and 3) I'm bored.

1) Debt
I encourage you to play around with https://studentaid.gov/loan-simulator/ or other student loan calculators. You'll either have to pay ~$1,750/mo. for 10 years to service that $150k or become a biglaw miser who throws away most of your post-tax income to pay it off quickly.

$1,750/mo is a decent apartment in Denver, the lease on a luxury car (or two), easier international travel, down payment on a house, save & invest until you get f***-you money - IOW not having to pay that each month means you can actually live like you make $190k+.

Additionally, if you decide to go the PI route, SLS's LRAP is nothing spectacular. It's not like NYU's or Yale's where you can afford to live a comfortable life as a public servant while still servicing a massive amount of debt. A good chunk of your income over $55k (for the decade following graduation) will go to pay off your loans.

2) Career outcomes
Like I said before, the $200k difference between SLS and UM might be justified if you were interested in hyper-prestigious outcomes that are possible (though not guaranteed) from SLS - academia, 2/9/DC COA clerkships, impact lit, ACLU, etc.

But your goals - BL in a high-QOL state, clerkship, cush in-house job - are pretty typical and achievable for someone slightly above median at any of the top 10 schools. They would be easier to achieve from SLS, but idk if $200k is worth changing a possible desired outcome to a definite one. Especially considering that your worst-case options out of Michigan are NY, Chi, or SF BL.

To answer your question, I think the Darrow is a nice feather in your cap and a hand-up, but I don't think it changes your overall odds of landing your desired outcomes significantly.

Denver is like other small West Coast high-QOL markets (PDX, SD, Seattle, Austin) where ties/connections are more important than pedigree. Anecdotally, I was a 1L SA at a V30 firm in SD. About half of the 1L & 2L SAs were at East Coast T13 schools and the other half were at Berk, UCLA, and USC (no SLS grads). But all of us had lived in SD for at least 3-4 years.

I looked up some of the Denver BL offices on NALP and SLS does not appear to have a definite advantage. Here are the number of attorneys per office from each school:
Bryan Cave - 0 SLS, 5 UM
Perkins Coie - 1 SLS, 0 UM
Dorsey & Whitney - 0 SLS, 1 UM
Nelson Mullins - 0 SLS, 1 UM
H&K - 0 SLS, 1 UM
MoFo - 1 SLS, 1 UM
Hogan Lovells - 2 SLS, 2 UM

If you have good ties to CO (grew up there, lived there for a few years, went to school there), then you probably have some pretty good "ins" to Denver biglaw or D. Col. clerkships from UM. If you don't have the connections now, you can start building connections in the region. Get a PI internship with Denver US Atty or SEC branch office during for your 1L summer. Don't land Denver at OCI? After graduation, consider that state courts and flyover federal districts are desperate for T13 grads. There are worse ways to spend a year than fed clerking in Billings or Boise or clerking at the Colorado state supreme court. And with no debt, you'll have plenty of income left over to afford lift tickets.

I don't think you can go wrong choosing between SLS and UM. (CLS should be thrown out of the equation) I think your job search will definitely be easier at SLS and you will get a prestige boost throughout your career, but your goals are perfectly achievable from Michigan and your wallet will thank you later.

Thanks again for taking the time. I’m a veteran and I have the GI Bill. That coupled with a generous merit scholarship that Michigan offered leads me to my COA.

[AdieuCali]

Thanks again for taking the time. I’m a veteran and I have the GI Bill. That coupled with a generous merit scholarship that Michigan offered leads me to my COA.

PM'd

[$$$$$$]

Michigan without a doubt. Stanford is obviously one of the best schools in the world, and if you were 100% on breaking into the VC/EC scene and working in SF or SV, I'd say that its probably worth the extra money, but otherwise, Michigan is a top school with national appeal and having no debt gives you SUBSTANTIAL freedom after you graduate to really pursue whatever you enjoy regardless of pay. I'm pretty sure that Michigan can get you everything you are looking for if you do it right and you'd do it essentially risk-free.

As someone that paid back $200,000+ in law school loans, it isn't fun at all and you are totally at the whim of your employer and the economy. Definitely not worth turning down Michigan, where you graduate debt free, for Stanford, no matter how fancy and prestigious it sounds. Plus, Michigan Law is actually really beautiful and Michigan is a big, world-class university with a diverse and interesting student body. You'll like it there despite the shitty winters.

[rgwen]

Are your COAs just anticipated cost of living or do you not have the full GI Bill? SLS has 100 percent yellow ribbon coverage. Total cost of attendance plus E5 w/ dependents BAH is provided.

Edit - I see you included undergrad debt and UM is actually banking money so I suppose that accounts for most of this, but still seems high for SLS considering full tuition and stipend even with the UG debt.

[tenpercent]

Are your COAs just anticipated cost of living or do you not have the full GI Bill? SLS has 100 percent yellow ribbon coverage. Total cost of attendance plus E5 w/ dependents BAH is provided.

Edit - I see you included undergrad debt and UM is actually banking money so I suppose that accounts for most of this, but still seems high for SLS considering full tuition and stipend even with the UG debt.

Hello there, thanks for responding. I don’t have a full 3 years left as I used my gi bill for part of undergrad.

[dabigchina]

SLS is really not worth an extra 210k.

Think about it this way, 210k invested today would net you $900k at retirement 30 years from now. (assuming a conservative 5% annual return).

Now, think about what you would rather have - an extra million bucks in the bank at retirement or a slightly fancier piece of paper on your wall.

[cali7802000]

If you simply wanted to do BigLaw, it could be a closer call. But with a stated interest in a federal clerkship and working out West, SLS is the easy call here. Throw in your interest in potentially working in-house, which SLS has a very strong network in, then you should definitely do SLS.

The money is, of course, a factor to consider. But SLS will give you an increased chance at federal clerkships and has stronger connections in the West. With the smallest class size of any T14, your ability to make meaningful connections with professors (including RA or TA), take substantive responsibility in clinics, and establish relationships with classmates is something you cannot put a price tag on.

[dabigchina]

Stanford definitely has the edge when it comes to clerkships, but I absolutely challenge whether going to SLS will make it materially easier to go in house. I have literally never heard of anybody caring about where you went to law school when going in house. It's all about what firm you worked at and what practice area you were in.

You can make an argument about clerks for prestigious judges getting better firms and better assignments, but if in house is really the end game, OP should just do corporate or TTG for 2-5 years at a generic V50 (which wouldn't require him to do a clerkship). He'll have better exit ops than 90% of litigation associates with "sexy" clerkships.

[TrynaLaw]

This is a great choice to have. I think Columbia should be out but Stanford vs. Michigan is a tough call.

Michigan can definitely get you Biglaw out west, SF/SV will be pretty easy, Colorado will be harder because the market is so much smaller, but I know multiple people who are doing it. Clerking from Michigan is very doable. That said, I would bet these outcomes are even easier out of Stanford.

I would honestly pick based on where you would rather spend 3 years.

[trebekismyhero]

Stanford at that price is very tempting and normally I'd say go for it. But to end up +60k with a law degree from a top 10 school seems like the right choice. But I am more debt-averse, especially in this economic climate

[The Lsat Airbender]

$210k is too much money to pass up. With $60k in the bank out of law school you can buy a house and start making mortgage payments while you have the biglaw salary. With -$150k you're making debt payments for 3-5 years just to get out of the red, and around then you'll take another income cut to go in-house.