NYU ($) v. Berk Forum

[AshMeow]

Long time lurker here and wish to thank everyone for valuable discussions and generous sharings！

I have to make a decision next week between the two: NYU with ~ $70k scholly and Berk for now nothing. I really appreciate any advice or thoughts. I don't really have people from legal professions here to talk to in reality, so please feel free to comment on anything that you feel like.

- CoA and financing: For now, CoA and CoL do not count that much.

- Location: In terms of culture and community I prefer the Bay Area a bit more, but still open to where career opportunities take me. No significant ties anywhere in the US.

- Career Goal: I came from a finance background and hated 80+ hrs work per week, so my career goal is 100% NOT big law. That being said, I am torn between some very specific finance-related areas of law (hopefully going into govt) and some very fascinating PI areas, and may have to figure out during law school. I am also interested in pursuing further education before heading back to work again. My impression is that NYU is slightly better in finance-related and PI and also higher-ranked, but Berk has stunning graduate programs to explore.

- GPA and LSAT: international S, 17low, too lazy to retake

Again, looking forward to and deeply appreciate any comments or ideas!

[objctnyrhnr]

If no real geographic preference, it’d be a close call if it was 0 at each. But to me with your goals and that scholly at NYU, seems a no brainer.

That being said, some high level schools are known for lrap and the like. Other posters might be able to add insight as to what UCB can do in this respect versus NYU. Full disclosure I took a huge scholly at a non t14 and got waitlisted at both of these, so I do not claim to be a wealth of knowledge here.

[cavalier1138]

LRAP at NYU isn't reliant on PSLF (or it doesn't have to be--you get to choose which program you enroll in). Between that and the extra scholarship, NYU is the better choice.

Also, this raised a few concerns for me:

Career Goal: I came from a finance background and hated 80+ hrs work per week, so my career goal is 100% NOT big law. That being said, I am torn between some very specific finance-related areas of law (hopefully going into govt) and some very fascinating PI areas, and may have to figure out during law school. I am also interested in pursuing further education before heading back to work again. My impression is that NYU is slightly better in finance-related and PI and also higher-ranked, but Berk has stunning graduate programs to explore.

When you say you're "interested in pursuing further education," what do you mean? Because it sounds like you're talking about getting a master's degree, which is generally going to be a waste of time (and could actually hurt your legal hiring prospects if you don't get a joint degree and take an extra 2-3 years after law school to earn the pointless extra degree). I'd strongly advise against that. Legal education isn't a time for academic exploration; it's professional training. None of your jobs will care about your MA in some obscure field, regardless of whether it's from a good program.

And if you go the finance route, you need to get used to the idea that you will most likely have to spend some time in biglaw. Assuming your goal is to be an attorney at a federal agency with a financial focus (e.g. SEC, FTC), it's extremely difficult to go there straight out of school. It's much more likely that you'll spend a few years at a large firm before you can try to lateral to competitive agencies.

[The Lsat Airbender]

When you say you're "interested in pursuing further education," what do you mean? Because it sounds like you're talking about getting a master's degree, which is generally going to be a waste of time (and could actually hurt your legal hiring prospects if you don't get a joint degree and take an extra 2-3 years after law school to earn the pointless extra degree). I'd strongly advise against that. Legal education isn't a time for academic exploration; it's professional training. None of your jobs will care about your MA in some obscure field, regardless of whether it's from a good program.

Strongly agree with cav here. You need to practice law for a while immediately after law school or you've pretty much wasted the legal education. It's like how if you spend 3 years learning Russian in a classroom setting, and then ... don't actually go speak or listen to any Russian, you'll lose it, and nobody else is going to value your education either.

If you want other grad degrees besides your J.D., your options are:

- grad school before the J.D.
- doing both simultaneously (i.e. a joint-degree program, which have their own drawbacks)
- getting the J.D., practicing law for at least 3-5 years and then going back to school

Outside of a Tax L.L.M., which is really just more law school (and ideally is done part-time while working), I cannot think of a situation where immediately following a J.D. with more education is a good idea.

[LBJ's Hair]

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with doing a PhD in, say, Econ or Statistics after, or even concurrently, with law school. Can see some regulatory work where that's useful, although you're a little over-educated. OP was talking about finance, so maybe that's what s/he's referring to.

But (a) you have to like, get into those programs, and (b) you should only do it with a really specific *plan* in mind. 2 post-graduate degrees on a lark = life-ruining amount of debt, no job at 35... you don't wanna be that person.

However, if you aren't 100 percent committed to that PhD track, aren't sure you want to practice law, and will be paying $$$ to attend law school, that's a little concerning. Law schools costs you a lot of time, a lot of money, and for most people ... it's not very much fun.

[AshMeow]

Thank you for all!! It's all really helpful and I especially appreciate you guys raising concerns - you are absolutely right; since I quit my job last year, I have been taking school as an escape from professional work. Definitely not wise but have to eat my own choices.

Thank you Cavalier and Airbender for pointing out the BL --> govt route - not sure if the quote works this way, but all of these are super helpful. I'll definitely think hard about the track and the possibilities.

And if you go the finance route, you need to get used to the idea that you will most likely have to spend some time in biglaw. Assuming your goal is to be an attorney at a federal agency with a financial focus (e.g. SEC, FTC), it's extremely difficult to go there straight out of school. It's much more likely that you'll spend a few years at a large firm before you can try to lateral to competitive agencies.

You need to practice law for a while immediately after law school or you've pretty much wasted the legal education. It's like how if you spend 3 years learning Russian in a classroom setting, and then ... don't actually go speak or listen to any Russian, you'll lose it, and nobody else is going to value your education either.

For the further education path, I'm sorry for the vague wording; yes, I'm having in mind a PhD after law school, just as LBJ's Hair mentioned. Thank you so much for your understanding and advice.

This is how the Berk graduate program factor comes into play. I did not have a strong academic record in UG (3.6x GPA), as I basically did not study and only did internships. I jumped into work immediately, which looking backward feels too hasty. I also moved to the US last year. Law school for me is really like opening doors. While I could not assume I would be better than a B student in law school, I was wondering if studying at Boalt could help my chances if I take some relevant courses during 2L/3L and apply. Again, it's probably my terrible guess, but I would love to hear your opinions.

Meanwhile, I really appreciate your advice on the concurrent degrees and Berk has some wonderful ones; but again, I cannot assume I could survive perfectly and prefer taking more time.

This forum is pure treasure; thank you everyone for providing your valuable insights. I also received a very helpful PM but I cannot figure out how to reply and say how grateful I am for sharing. Thank you so much!

[The Lsat Airbender]

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with doing a PhD in, say, Econ or Statistics after, or even concurrently, with law school. Can see some regulatory work where that's useful, although you're a little over-educated. OP was talking about finance, so maybe that's what s/he's referring to.

Sure. But is it ever wise to choose the JD>PhD progression ex ante? I don't see how that's ever going to be preferable to doing the PhD first or enrolling in a dual-degree program.

- Insofar as there are roles where JD+PhD is preferable to "just" a PhD, the JD doesn't really open any additional doors if you did it six years ago and haven't practiced law in the interim. SEC isn't going to be interested in that.
- Basically impossible to deal with law-school debt as a grad student unless you are independently wealthy, got a Darrow-type full ride, or did the JD at Yale specifically. (Pretty sure their LRAP is unique in covering grad school but maybe some of the other T6 do too.)
- I hate to bring up another angle of bad news, but another important consideration for OP is that, if they're not an American citizen, some of the scarce roles where being a double-doctor make sense are going to be cut off. Article III clerkships (and, therefore, the opportunities they create) are mostly off-limits, anything requiring a security clearance is going to be a pain, etc.

This is how the Berk graduate program factor comes into play. I did not have a strong academic record in UG (3.6x GPA), as I basically did not study and only did internships. I jumped into work immediately, which looking backward feels too hasty. I also moved to the US last year. Law school for me is really like opening doors. While I could not assume I would be better than a B student in law school, I was wondering if studying at Boalt could help my chances if I take some relevant courses during 2L/3L and apply. Again, it's probably my terrible guess, but I would love to hear your opinions.

I doubt that doing well at the law school is going to help you at any other graduate program. Being on campus and being able to network with faculty can help but that's a totally unknown quantity and not worthwhile on average, like moving to L.A. to become an actor. The M.A. is a faster, cheaper, and more reliable way of doing all of these things, and it's still risky to start a master's program assuming you'll later get to "level up" to a funded doctoral track.

Also, don't count yourself too short - if you got Superior from LSAC then your grades are probably perfectly fine for PhD programs. The tough part about getting into a good PhD program is everything else—the curriculum vitae, the recommendations, and sheer luck. Law school isn't going to help with any of that, except maybe a recommendation (J.D. classes are big enough that you'd have to really impress somebody).

This is getting to be a long post. OP, to be clear: your goals are perfectly reasonable and attainable. But there is a substantial chance that you miss out on them, in which case you'll be pretty much railroaded into biglaw for at least 3 years or so. If you burnt out quickly from finance, you should be especially wary about that possibility, because biglaw is roughly as miserable.

[LBJ's Hair]

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with doing a PhD in, say, Econ or Statistics after, or even concurrently, with law school. Can see some regulatory work where that's useful, although you're a little over-educated. OP was talking about finance, so maybe that's what s/he's referring to.

Sure. But is it ever wise to choose the JD>PhD progression ex ante? I don't see how that's ever going to be preferable to doing the PhD first or enrolling in a dual-degree program.

- Insofar as there are roles where JD+PhD is preferable to "just" a PhD, the JD doesn't really open any additional doors if you did it six years ago and haven't practiced law in the interim. SEC isn't going to be interested in that.
- Basically impossible to deal with law-school debt as a grad student unless you are independently wealthy, got a Darrow-type full ride, or did the JD at Yale specifically. (Pretty sure their LRAP is unique in covering grad school but maybe some of the other T6 do too.)
- I hate to bring up another angle of bad news, but another important consideration for OP is that, if they're not an American citizen, some of the scarce roles where being a double-doctor make sense are going to be cut off. Article III clerkships (and, therefore, the opportunities they create) are mostly off-limits, anything requiring a security clearance is going to be a pain, etc.

Totally, I agree with those concerns. I just meant a JD-PhD is like, defensible if you have a very specific reason, i.e. the person posting knows more than I do about the need for a JD-PhD. Regarding timing - I have no opinion on how best to do it. Don't know much, and my young profs were all over the place, so can't even speak anecdotally. (If JD debt payments aren't delayed til after leaving grad school that is hugely important; I had assumed they were.)

Obvi JD-PhD is a catastrophically bad decision if done on a lark. OP might be in that camp.

[AshMeow]

Thank you so much for so patiently explaining everything! The graduate program part is super helpful - after pulling myself both ways for another two days I just made up my mind and committed to NYU.

- Insofar as there are roles where JD+PhD is preferable to "just" a PhD, the JD doesn't really open any additional doors if you did it six years ago and haven't practiced law in the interim. SEC isn't going to be interested in that.
- Basically impossible to deal with law-school debt as a grad student unless you are independently wealthy, got a Darrow-type full ride, or did the JD at Yale specifically. (Pretty sure their LRAP is unique in covering grad school but maybe some of the other T6 do too.)
- I hate to bring up another angle of bad news, but another important consideration for OP is that, if they're not an American citizen, some of the scarce roles where being a double-doctor make sense are going to be cut off. Article III clerkships (and, therefore, the opportunities they create) are mostly off-limits, anything requiring a security clearance is going to be a pain, etc.
... But there is a substantial chance that you miss out on them, in which case you'll be pretty much railroaded into biglaw for at least 3 years or so. If you burnt out quickly from finance, you should be especially wary about that possibility, because biglaw is roughly as miserable.

I also wish to especially thank you for raising red flags and pointing out what I have been overseeing in my all-very-preliminary, sketchy career plans. All of them are valuable insights and I hope you wouldn't mind sharing some more! I have been fortunate to have my parents who are not really wealthy but are obsessed with paying for education, and I will probably naturalize in two or three years, though not 100% sure if that solves the citizenship issue completely. But you are absolutely right - it's always better to have that cost-benefit analysis early in mind, and really calculate what higher education yields as the JD part gets diluted over time. And as you mentioned the biglaw --> regulator path, I should prepare for some biglaw experience either way, which, I guess, would change what my law school years look like.

Again, I'm so grateful for all your kindest suggestions; otherwise I would never be able to decide with such peace of mind. If you feel like commenting on anything, please, definitely let me know.

[AshMeow]

Totally, I agree with those concerns. I just meant a JD-PhD is like, defensible if you have a very specific reason, i.e. the person posting knows more than I do about the need for a JD-PhD. Regarding timing - I have no opinion on how best to do it. Don't know much, and my young profs were all over the place, so can't even speak anecdotally. (If JD debt payments aren't delayed til after leaving grad school that is hugely important; I had assumed they were.)

Obvi JD-PhD is a catastrophically bad decision if done on a lark. OP might be in that camp.

Thank you so much!!! I really know nothing LOL and I feel so fortunate to learn from you before I go down that route blindly. All your suggestions are really informative and inspiring; as just posted, I made up my mind and really look forward to the fall. Would love to hear young prof stories, if you might have the mood to share one day!