Columbia vs GULC Aid Forum

[pianolesspianist]

Hey all

Just got my acceptance email from Columbia, but haven't received a merit award from them. Few questions about this:

1) Does not receiving an email with a merit scholarship offer mean I am unlikely to receive it in the future? All my other acceptances came with an offer, or at least a notice that an offer would be coming....anyone know if CLS' procedure is different?

2) Even without aid, could I use acceptance at CLS to leverage scholarship $$$ at GULC or Cornell or GW? (I will likely get some need-baser aid from CLS either way, if it matters)

3) Given that I am PI-oriented and Biglaw averse, how much $$$ do you think I'd need from GULC to justify attending Georgetown over Columbia?

Thanks!!

[QContinuum]

Congrats on your acceptances and scholarship offers!

Given that you're PI-oriented, the obvious question is, what did you get from NYU and Michigan?

Also, when did you apply?

[BrainsyK]

1. No. Only Butler and Hamilton come with the acceptance letter, but something like 50% of the class has some kind of financial aid. There's no way that 50% of the class gets Butler or Hamliton so there's probably more waves of financial aid coming. What will probably happen is that you'll fill out the financial aid application, and they will send out an letter with a certain amount that you receive. That amount can be minimal, or it can be more than Butler in some cases. That doesn't happen until late April though.

2. Yes. No one knows how well it'll work, but you can definitely try.

[pianolesspianist]

Thanks for the replies!

I got NYU's "hang tight" email, but haven't heard back since.
I never applied to Michigan.

So, for now at least, GULC and CLS are my main options. To be honest, I will probably end up at GULC since (presumably) they'll end up offering more aid than any of my other top choices, but I'm wondering how much more they would need to offer to justify attending GULC over CLS

[The Lsat Airbender]

Thanks for the replies!

I got NYU's "hang tight" email, but haven't heard back since.
I never applied to Michigan.

So, for now at least, GULC and CLS are my main options. To be honest, I will probably end up at GULC since (presumably) they'll end up offering more aid than any of my other top choices, but I'm wondering how much more they would need to offer to justify attending GULC over CLS

If you are truly committed to PI, and your impression of PI includes things like being a public defender in your home state, then GULC doesn't need to be vastly cheaper to justify taking it over CLS. Maybe $50k. Columbia excels Georgetown for biglaw, of course, and certain prestigious outcomes, especially those where clerking or biglaw is a de facto pre-req. People who want that firepower can justify paying a bigger premium.

The caveat to this is that if you're spending over $100k either way I'd go with Columbia 10 times out of 10 because it has a better LRAP and a stronger endowment with which to fund it.

eta: to future 0Ls reading this, not applying to Michigan (and presumably other T14s besides) here will constrain OP's options and was therefore a big mistake

[dabigchina]

If you are really PI or bust, Columbia supposedly has one of the best PSLF programs. Note you have to really sure, because you'll be doing PI for a pretty long time (10 years?) after graduation to make PSLF work.

[pianolesspianist]

Thanks for the replies!

I got NYU's "hang tight" email, but haven't heard back since.
I never applied to Michigan.

So, for now at least, GULC and CLS are my main options. To be honest, I will probably end up at GULC since (presumably) they'll end up offering more aid than any of my other top choices, but I'm wondering how much more they would need to offer to justify attending GULC over CLS

If you are truly committed to PI, and your impression of PI includes things like being a public defender in your home state, then GULC doesn't need to be vastly cheaper to justify taking it over CLS. Maybe $50k. Columbia excels Georgetown for biglaw, of course, and certain prestigious outcomes, especially those where clerking or biglaw is a de facto pre-req. People who want that firepower can justify paying a bigger premium.

The caveat to this is that if you're spending over $100k either way I'd go with Columbia 10 times out of 10 because it has a better LRAP and a stronger endowment with which to fund it.

eta: to future 0Ls reading this, not applying to Michigan (and presumably other T14s besides) here will constrain OP's options and was therefore a big mistake

Thanks for the reply.

Columbia is appealing specifically because of those 'prestigious outcomes,' though I have to wonder if they'll really be completely out of reach at GULC.....
Given that I'm pretty debt averse, your comment regarding choosing CLS 10/10 times if the pricetag is over 100k interests me.
300k for CLS over 110k for GULC, say, seems counterintuitive to me - could you elaborate further?

And actually, i covered 9 of the T14. I don't regret not applying to Michigan personally, but it's definitely a good idea for most people.

[pianolesspianist]

If you are really PI or bust, Columbia supposedly has one of the best PSLF programs. Note you have to really sure, because you'll be doing PI for a pretty long time (10 years?) after graduation to make PSLF work.

And there's the rub. I'm pretty sure, but not completely certain.

I like to keep options open where possible. I don't see myself in Biglaw because the hours seem downright ungodly, but I hesitate to rule it out completely given that I've never seen if firsthand.

So i'm not PI or bust, but as i know myself and based on my current knowledge of the profession, I'd say there's like an 88% chance i'll end up in a PI role.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Columbia is appealing specifically because of those 'prestigious outcomes,' though I have to wonder if they'll really be completely out of reach at GULC.....

To reiterate, CLS mainly has an edge because clerking/biglaw for a few years is the easiest path to a lot of fancy PI roles (e.g., certain fedgov roles, such as federal prosecution). If you are biglaw-allergic, which is perfectly reasonable, you won't enjoy as much of that advantage. CLS is also marginally less competitive because it has a smaller class and less of its class is interested in PI, but that doesn't really mean there's anything which is attainable from CLS but not from GULC. It's just easier at the smaller, higher-ranked school.

Given that I'm pretty debt averse, your comment regarding choosing CLS 10/10 times if the pricetag is over 100k interests me.
300k for CLS over 110k for GULC, say, seems counterintuitive to me - could you elaborate further?.

Once the debt load gets to a certain size, you're not servicing it on your public-defender salary anyway, so it makes more sense to look at gestalt LRAP quality than at the gross amount of loans. Columbia, along with HYS, is special in that their program actually pays down your loans over time ("negative amortization"). Most other schools's programs pay the minimum on your loans and then rely on PSLF to nuke the whole pile after 10 years. This works, hopefully, but is undesirable for three reasons:

1) if you have to leave PSLF-eligible employment for whatever reason, you'll end up with even more debt than you started with

2) PSLF forgiving that much debt means a huge "tax bomb" because you'll have to pay income taxes in the year your debt is forgiven

3) PSLF is a government program and could theoretically get yanked out from under your feet for political reasons. I believe, and I think most people believe, that a well-endowed Ivy League university is more likely to honor their loan forgiveness commitments.

Columbia's LRAP is also just better in general. You should do your own research on why (read the entire program for both schools cover-to-cover, ask alums who are using the programs, etc.) because it's such a big decision and also because LRAP restrictions will constrain a lot of your life choices for the next decade if you plow your loans into one.

[QContinuum]

2) PSLF forgiving that much debt means a huge "tax bomb" because you'll have to pay income taxes in the year your debt is forgiven

There's no PSLF tax bomb. That's the best part of PSLF, or second-best after the loan forgiveness.

And actually, i covered 9 of the T14. I don't regret not applying to Michigan personally

Whatever happened to wanting to keep your options open?

I like to keep options open where possible.

Ruling out over a third of the T14 ex ante doesn't seem like "keeping options open where possible," doubly so when you profess to be interested in PI and you decide not to apply to one of the strongest PI schools in the country (that also happens to be one of the most generous T14s in offering merit aid).

If by "9 of the T14" you mean you applied to USNWR 1-8, plus Georgetown as a "safety", your best move is going to be to reapply next cycle, this time including USNWR 9-13.

[pianolesspianist]

2) PSLF forgiving that much debt means a huge "tax bomb" because you'll have to pay income taxes in the year your debt is forgiven

There's no PSLF tax bomb. That's the best part of PSLF, or second-best after the loan forgiveness.

And actually, i covered 9 of the T14. I don't regret not applying to Michigan personally

Whatever happened to wanting to keep your options open?

I like to keep options open where possible.

Ruling out over a third of the T14 ex ante doesn't seem like "keeping options open where possible," doubly so when you profess to be interested in PI and you decide not to apply to one of the strongest PI schools in the country (that also happens to be one of the most generous T14s in offering merit aid).

If by "9 of the T14" you mean you applied to USNWR 1-8, plus Georgetown as a "safety", your best move is going to be to reapply next cycle, this time including USNWR 9-13.

Actually, GW and WUSTL were my safeties. GULC was not a safety, but a genuine prospect (and still is).

I didn't apply to Michigan because I don't want to go there (personal reasons), and applying to a school i know i won't attend solely for leverage seems a bit unfair. Plus - and this is obviously not a reason on its own - but those CAS report fees add up quick when you're poor X_x

In any case, I'd appreciate if we stuck to the actual OP discussion instead of questioning my life choices

Given my current situation - and regardless of how i got to it - would y'all agree with Airbender's assertion (thanks for clarifying btw) that CLS' LRAP can justify 200k more debt than GULC if both COAs are over 100k?