Fordham for $60k or SJU for free? Forum

[Sackboy]

3.6+ and 170 = don't settle for a non-T14 unless it's close to a full ride at a Texas/UCLA/etc.

Fordham's a decent school that places into BigLaw when the economy is good, but its numbers will slip materially if this recession extends into 2022. Which it might.

If you're going to settle for a non-T14 and you want NYC, Fordham at $60k seems very reasonable. I don't know why you'd take Texas/UCLA/etc. over Fordham when Fordham is actually in NYC and has equally high biglaw placement rates. Why would you go to UCLA where a fair number of students want to stay in CA or Texas where a fair amount want to stay in TX?

I don't think any of us should be rubbing the crystal ball predicting what is or is not likely in 2022. That's a long ways off.

All that being said, I'm a big fan of sitting out, retaking (a one or two point bump could be huge in terms of T14 scholarship $$$), reapplying to the full Columbia, NYU, and the lower T13 + Fordham, and seeing where the chips fall.

[cavalier1138]

Otherwise if that doesn't work I'm not going this year. Also I should mention I'm a little frightened about T-14 schools because A) I heard they're ridiculously competitive (lots of gunners) and I don't know how I'd handle that; and B) I was operating under the assumption I might not receive a lot of money from them, though you've said at least some might throw money my way.

There are gunners at every law school. There will be gunners at Fordham and SJU. That's just how many law students are. As for money, it's best to take a shot and find out than not take a shot at all. I'm with the others that it's worth applying to the lower t13 schools too.

Additionally, T13 schools are far less competitive than lower-ranked schools, because you don't need to be at the top of the class to see good outcomes.

[notatourist69]

JW, are you URM? With a 170 you really should be able to get somewhere into the lower T-14 at least and possibly a full ride at a T-20. Also, are you sure Cornell kicked you off the list/did you ever eventually reach out to them when you notice (I know someone that did this and she was able to stay on)?

If by URM you mean "under represented minority", no, I'm not. I'm nominally white. I reached out to Cornell by replying to the email saying I was waitlisted, the email address the waitlist email said to contact initially, and I called the admissions office the day I was withdrawn to make absolutely sure I could get back on. I don't know what else to do.

Ah okay. I'm sorry about the Cornell situation. I still agree with others that with your stats you should be able to get somewhere into the lower T-14 at least and possibly a full ride at a T-20. You're a competitive applicant; good luck!

[LiquoreStoreHero]

As for money, it's best to take a shot and find out than not take a shot at all. I'm with the others that it's worth applying to the lower t13 schools too.

Okay. I now want to reapply next year. The only thing that truly scares me about that prospect is, "if we have a recession, how many other people will apply to law schools next year? How much will that drive up average LSAT scores and GPAs at T-14 schools and up?"

Because of that, a smaller part of me wants to shoot for a full scholarship from Fordham so I can just get started now. To do that, I need to ask for a deposit extension, which I want to do immediately. If I request a deposit extension, but then cannot go, would the Fordham admissions staff hold my extension request against me in the case that I reapplied next year? I hope this isn't a silly question but I don't want to take anything for granted.

Further -- is there any way to tell if my current LSAT and GPA will hold up in the face of competition next year? I've already taken the LSAT three times, and I think I run a real risk of scoring lower than 170 this time around. I'm now wondering which is a safer bet in case of a recession -- a free Fordham JD, or applying to T14 and potentially taking out lots of loans?

[The Lsat Airbender]

The LSAT is normally-distributed. A 170 is going to be competitive in any year. 168s and 169s have more reason to worry about yearly variance because they're within the battleground for lower-T14 medians.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Ah okay. I'm sorry about the Cornell situation. I still agree with others that with your stats you should be able to get somewhere into the lower T-14 at least and possibly a full ride at a T-20. You're a competitive applicant; good luck!

Just checked and I'm back on Cornell's waitlist, fwiw.

[Sackboy]

The LSAT is normally-distributed. A 170 is going to be competitive in any year. 168s and 169s have more reason to worry about yearly variance because they're within the battleground for lower-T14 medians.

While the LSAT is normally distributed, you have more people scoring at the 95th percentile when more people take the test. That means that there are more applicants with stellar numbers for a relatively fixed number of seats. OP's concern is very real. Not all cycles are created equal. If I applied during the recession, I probably wouldn't have gotten into any T13 schools, let alone some CCN and lower T13 with $$$.

[QContinuum]

The LSAT is normally-distributed. A 170 is going to be competitive in any year. 168s and 169s have more reason to worry about yearly variance because they're within the battleground for lower-T14 medians.

While the LSAT is normally distributed, you have more people scoring at the 95th percentile when more people take the test. That means that there are more applicants with stellar numbers for a relatively fixed number of seats. OP's concern is very real. Not all cycles are created equal. If I applied during the recession, I probably wouldn't have gotten into any T13 schools, let alone some CCN and lower T13 with $$$.

Do you seriously think a 3.6x/170 is going to get locked out of the entire T13 next cycle?

https://mylsn.info/iwapjo/ - currently these numbers (3.60-3.65/170) show a 86% chance at getting into Michigan, with an 83% chance at getting $100k in scholly $$$. And an 84% chance at getting into UVA, with a 50% chance at $60k in merit aid. Also, a 67% chance at Duke (43% chance at $90k), 69% chance at NW (44% chance at $60k), and a 1 in 3 shot at NYU and Penn (probably at or close to sticker).

While Fordham's a fine school, I could not in good conscience tell OP to pay $60k for Fordham when they're not 100% dedicated to state/local public interest, and their numbers qualify them for Michigan on a $100k scholarship.

[Sackboy]

While the LSAT is normally distributed, you have more people scoring at the 95th percentile when more people take the test. That means that there are more applicants with stellar numbers for a relatively fixed number of seats. OP's concern is very real. Not all cycles are created equal. If I applied during the recession, I probably wouldn't have gotten into any T13 schools, let alone some CCN and lower T13 with $$$.

Do you seriously think a 3.6x/170 is going to get locked out of the entire T13 next cycle?

https://mylsn.info/iwapjo/ - currently these numbers (3.60-3.65/170) show a 86% chance at getting into Michigan, with an 83% chance at getting $100k in scholly $$$. And an 84% chance at getting into UVA, with a 50% chance at $60k in merit aid. Also, a 67% chance at Duke (43% chance at $90k), 69% chance at NW (44% chance at $60k), and a 1 in 3 shot at NYU and Penn (probably at or close to sticker).

While Fordham's a fine school, I could not in good conscience tell OP to pay $60k for Fordham when they're not 100% dedicated to state/local public interest, and their numbers qualify them for Michigan on a $100k scholarship.

Let's cool our jets, here.

I never said OP would get locked out of the T13. I said that I (i.e. me, also known as Sackboy, also known as not the OP in discussion here) would have. My point was to illustrate that cycles can have dramatically different strengths and that OP's concerns are legitimate in that regard.

The whole point of this section of the board is to help people choose schools that make sense for their goals. OP's goals seem to be to work for preferably the federal government or a mid-sized firm (but is open to any kind of employment) and is actively a person who is "willing to take lower pay for lower hours." OP even shows an openness to work in Queens and Westchester, not quite biglaw paradise out there. Recommending OP to take on more debt at a T13 to go to a big law firm that is the exact opposite of OP's desire to work fewer hours for lower pay doesn't really sound like it's a recommendation for OP's goals. OP's goals are very modest and $60k coming out of Fordham sounds like it will easily achieve OP's goals.

I'd personally be pretty disappointed if we told OP to hold off, and then he got into NU with $60k. That'd put OP at $270k in debt (approximated from the LST chart) to land a biglaw job that seems like the opposite of what OP wants. It'd be pretty much the same story with all of the other figures you quoted at those other T13 schools.

Just my $0.02.

[QContinuum]

The whole point of this section of the board is to help people choose schools that make sense for their goals. ...

I'd personally be pretty disappointed if we told OP to hold off, and then he got into NU with $60k. That'd put OP at $270k in debt (approximated from the LST chart) to land a biglaw job that seems like the opposite of what OP wants. It'd be pretty much the same story with all of the other figures you quoted at those other T13 schools.

I never said OP wanted only BigLaw.

OP wants:

federal government. I want to make high five-figures to low six-figures a year and work 40-50 hours a week or less.

Fed Gov is far more achievable from a T13 than from Fordham. (Putting aside low-paying, noncompetitive Fed Gov gigs like working at Social Security or ICE or the VA, which don't meet OP's salary criteria.)

The kinds of in-house, $100k+ 40-50 hour/week positions that one can land after a stint at BigLaw are also far more achievable from a T13 than from Fordham.

Joining a small firm in Queens or Westchester is eminently achievable from Fordham, but doesn't meet OP's salary criteria. They'd be looking more at $50-60k starting (possibly lower - $40-50k starting isn't uncommon), and pretty slim odds of ever approaching $100k unless they prove to be one of the relatively few lawyers with the skill, looks and personality needed to be a rainmaker.

I also like how you cherry-picked the single worst potential outcome I listed - NW with $60k - and then mischaracterized that as "pretty much the same story with all of the other figures". Why didn't you pick Michigan with $100k or Duke with $90k?

Lastly, OP can retake LSAT. If they retake and get a 167, that doesn't really hurt them - schools will just look to the 170 they already have. If they retake and get a 171, or 172, that could help them bigly. A 172 bumps Michigan up to $120k, and admissions chances at Columbia and NYU to just shy of 60%.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Lastly, OP can retake LSAT. If they retake and get a 167, that doesn't really hurt them - schools will just look to the 170 they already have. If they retake and get a 171, or 172, that could help them bigly. A 172 bumps Michigan up to $120k, and admissions chances at Columbia and NYU to just shy of 60%.

While I appreciate your input, I want to argue against taking the LSAT again in my case.

My score distribution is 166, 167, 170. The best I did on a fresh practice test was a 174. I studied for 8 months straight. I really think I hit my point of greatest performance already. I'm afraid if I land a sub-170 then it looks like the 170 was a fluke. Also, I never want to take the LSAT again if I can help it. Finally, as my last LSAT was July 2019, I would have to spend months getting back into it and I don't know I'd be able to do so. I have also exhausted my LSAT practice tests.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Recommending OP to take on more debt at a T13 to go to a big law firm that is the exact opposite of OP's desire to work fewer hours for lower pay doesn't really sound like it's a recommendation for OP's goals. OP's goals are very modest and $60k coming out of Fordham sounds like it will easily achieve OP's goals.

I'd personally be pretty disappointed if we told OP to hold off, and then he got into NU with $60k. That'd put OP at $270k in debt (approximated from the LST chart) to land a biglaw job that seems like the opposite of what OP wants. It'd be pretty much the same story with all of the other figures you quoted at those other T13 schools.

Just my $0.02.

Thank you for addressing my dilemma from this angle, Sackboy. I do prioritize expediency and name brand recognition in NY. I'm 23 and don't have the money yet to move to Michigan or elsewhere. I believe that *actually* going to a place like that would require me too much time spent, too much debt, too much more potential LSAT work for it to be worth it to me. My only interest in out of state T-14 schools is to bargain against Fordham with. I want to stay local and not have debt hanging over my head. That's my ideal scenario.

[notatourist69]

Ah okay. I'm sorry about the Cornell situation. I still agree with others that with your stats you should be able to get somewhere into the lower T-14 at least and possibly a full ride at a T-20. You're a competitive applicant; good luck!

Just checked and I'm back on Cornell's waitlist, fwiw.

I could have sworn I responded way earlier but now don't see that post. Hmm... Well, I'm so happy to hear this OP! I figured they would since I know someone who had this exact thing happen to them. Wishing us three luck on getting off the waitlist!

[LiquoreStoreHero]

I could have sworn I responded way earlier but now don't see that post. Hmm... Well, I'm so happy to hear this OP! I figured they would since I know someone who had this exact thing happen to them. Wishing us three luck on getting off the waitlist!

Thanks, friend! Best of luck to you and your buddy!

[LiquoreStoreHero]

First off, I did something really dumb, and I recognize that in retrospect. I've been under impossible pressure due to family circumstances, expectations that I'd GO TO LAW SCHOOL THIS YEAR, and COVID paranoia as well as cramped living conditions without a bedroom. So by all means be straight with me, but also try to have a little mercy on me.

I did something that's half-wrong and half-right. I withdrew my app from SJU (good) and enrolled, MATRICULATED, at FLS (questionable). Now I'm really badly doubting that decision but I think it's too risky to withdraw and reapply to other schools at a later date, because the manner in which I enrolled/matriculated at FLS was really abrasive and created extra work the school's AdComm.

Long story short, I was in severe distress when I make this decision, so while it's stupid and self-defeating, I need you to understand why I did it. I didn't check my laptop for about a week because I'm too depressed and catatonic to really get much of anything done. When I did check it, I saw the FLS registration deadline had passed several days prior, and my seat had been canceled. I freak out because I don't know what I'm going to do with my life for the foreseeable future, and I need something to occupy me, as I've been unemployed since April. Further, FLS has enough lay prestige that my friends and family were ecstatic that I got in, so I felt like I'd be a failure if I "didn't at least give it a shot". (They took my talk of "I'm not sure I can beat the curve" to be a lack of self esteem rather than an honest assessment.) So, I asked to enroll late, and did so. The school had to reinstate my fucking seat. A day later I realize, "What the fuck, I should have just sat this cycle out, told them that I might not be able to go this year, left on good terms, and reapplied there and the T13 later, as I had originally planned."

Now I fear FLS will shit the bed with regards to BigLaw placement going forward, and that maybe I want a JD with greater geographical portability, as my life circumstances, as well as the entire world, have changed pretty substantially ever since I started off; I'm not sure I'll be content with living in Manhattan because my family and friends won't all be living here. I'm also a bit afraid my performance is going to be bad this year for a variety of reasons. My parents are getting divorced, and I'm going to be stuck in my current location for maybe a month into the first semester, until I can move in with my Dad. I actually thought that law school would give me something to focus on, because intense LSAT study was how I coped with the emotional pain of being thrown out of my house. FLS said their law library (walkable from my current location) would be open to study in, but I realize that if anything happens with COVID, they will close and I will lose my quiet study space and likely do poorly.

I am thinking of just withdrawing before orientation on Monday, and reapplying to T13 schools 2+ years from now when my life is under control. If I do, some schools ask if you registered at any other law schools, not just attended. I think Duke and Michigan would actually want a letter from my current school's admissions council confirming why I left. If I reapplied a few years from now, I am afraid that FLS would tell these schools that I enrolled late, created extra work for them, and bailed at the last minute, and generally try to blacklist me for behaving poorly. What's worse is, they'd be completely within their rights to do so. Do you think this would happen?

Is applying to other schools a few years from now even a realistic possibility anymore, or is that one just over? Now that I'm *literally* matriculated at FLS, should I just make the best of the situation and thank Christ I didn't enroll at SJU? For reference, between savings and family contributions, my debt load from FLS would be $30k, so if I "gave it a shot" as intended, it would by no means ruin me. But, I think I may have ruined any future applications anyway just by merit of my own neurotic and mentally ill behavior. So maybe I should just pretend I got a 168 and that this was a sensible choice. And honestly, if reapplying later on is impossible, even that would make me somewhat glad, because at least my self-questioning and doubt would finally be over, and I can just get on with my fucking life.

Sorry for the rant.

[nealric]

I think withdrawing will probably eliminate your chances at Fordham in the future, but I don’t think it will foreclose applying at a later date to T14 schools (or any other law school). You created work for some admins, but nobody at other schools is going to know or care. You can always use COVID as an excuse for deferring and reapplying if needed.

From my perspective, it seems like the best argument for not attending this semester is that it doesn’t sound like you are in a great mental place to reach your full potential in law school right now. I think it makes a lot of sense to clear your head first.

[Golradaer]

First of all, there's no need to freak out. Nobody will care that you made things difficult for Fordham admissions staff (other than Fordham admissions staff, obviously).

It sounds like you're in a really difficult place in life right now, emotionally and physically, which suggests that this is a terrible time to begin 1L. As you know, your 1L grades will entirely dictate your ability to get a big law job, so you want to do everything you can to ensure you're in a stable position before embarking on this path.

Withdrawing from Fordham, stabilizing your life, and reapplying to T14/T20 schools sounds like a great idea. Nobody is going to care that you withdrew from Fordham before school even starts, especially this year (COVID is such an easy excuse). It won't be a black mark at all. The thing schools worry about is if you attend one law school and perform poorly, drop out, then try to reapply somewhere else. Don't put yourself in that situation by forcing yourself to go through with attending this year.

[LiquoreStoreHero]

Sorry guys. I don't even dislike FLS; in fact, I was extremely impressed when I visited! I'm mad at myself for putting myself here. I should have just left it alone. I hope some day I look back and laugh at this.

Nealric -- how could I defer and reapply? As I understand it, FLS deferrals are BINDING. While I'm not anti-FLS, I'm just not confident it's what I want because I don't KNOW what I want. I've been stagnant so long that I'm just confused. I know that RIGHT NOW, I'm too chicken to take on lots of debt, and frankly I've never even had to find my own apartment before, so I can't even get excited about other schools. In short, I am deeply confused about what my goals even are. I think I want BigLaw but there's so much stuff out there that I don't know about that I don't know where to even start. I'm also seriously worried (sick) that I won't perform my best this year.

And I'm fairly confident that even if I wanted FLS, distance learning will ruin my performance in my current state. I tried keeping up with the pre-orientation reading and I just can't get anything DONE. I need to see people and interact with them to do well. I've been stuck inside too long and with all this other shit going on I am *not* confident I'm bringing my A-game. I need camaraderie and classmates to commiserate with in difficult times; I'm not an automaton. I don't think I can do distance learning for POTENTIALLY the next year. I knew Zoom classes were a risk for this year! What was I thinking???

I have to find a job. This will suck. I'll live. I wish I'd just kept cool.

[nixy]

(I think Nealric meant "defer and reapply" in a generic "don't go this year" way rather than the technical "defer your acceptance and go the following year" way?)

OP, withdrawing now and trying again in the future sounds the most reasonable route at this point. I agree with everyone who says that covid makes everything unusual about this year make sense; it's a built-in reason for almost anything.

Also, I wouldn't freak out so much about your treatment of Fordham adcoms. You asked if you could enroll late and they said yes; under the current circumstances where everything is so crazy, I doubt they had to do you an enormous favor to do so. They were probably happy to have another student commit (and if they weren't, they wouldn't have let you enroll late). Yeah, you may have burned bridges with them for future years, in that they may not trust that you'll attend after this, but this is nothing that anyone else could ever hold against you. It's not personal; Fordham doesn't have feelings that will be hurt. It's a business. If you need a letter from Fordham it's going to say that you were admitted, you enrolled late, then chose to withdraw before classes started. That's all.

(Also: when did you find out your parents were divorcing and your housing would be changing? I'm not suggesting you lie about this to anyone, but if it was after you enrolled at Fordham, it's another completely reasonable reason for not wanting to start right now, and one you could easily give.)