Michigan (Darrow) vs. Penn (Levy) vs. Harvard Forum

[Bud_Toker69]

I'm trying to choose between Michigan (Darrow, full ride + stipend), Penn (Levy, full ride), Chicago (30k / year), and Harvard (no aid).

I hope to go into appellate litigation after law school, and potentially academia down the road. I don't have any undergrad debt. I'm trying to decide if going into debt for Harvard is worth it given my career goals. Any advice is much appreciated!

[Delano]

Chicago and Harvard should be off the table.

Hopefully someone else can speak to the relative strengths of Penn and Michigan in more detail. But, as someone who faced a similar choice, I strongly recommend visiting both schools and talking to students and faculty, if you haven't already, and getting a feel for the locations of both schools and where you'd be happiest. Ann Arbor and Philadelphia are very different places. Making an Excel sheet and comparing employment outcomes between the two schools on factors like top firms, most selective firms, academic placement, and anything else important to you is also a good idea - You can use LinkedIn for this. My guess is that Penn is slightly stronger than Michigan in BL placement, but I might be totally wrong.

Michigan makes the most financial sense, but Penn is justifiable if you think you'd be happier there or if it's looking like Penn is a better choice for your goals. Congratulations on the great outcomes!

[lavarman84]

Are you not eligible for aid at Harvard due to your parents' income? Normally, I'd advise going to the place with the least debt, but appellate litigation and academia are both tough nuts to crack (at least the high-stakes, prestigious appellate litigation is). Gonna likely need a federal COA clerkship (and obviously, a SCOTUS clerkship is the crown jewel, but that's a unicorn outcome for anybody).

[The Lsat Airbender]

Your goals are slightly easier from Harvard, but they have more to do with being magna cum laude at a T14, and jumping through a bunch of unrelated hoops, than they do with being at a particular T14. Harvard and Chicago might be worth a quarter-million in a vacuum, but the marginal value of those schools compared to another T14 is nowhere near that much.

Michigan is probably the call here. Penn is slightly better at placing into the tippy-top NYC corporate shops, and it's in a big city as opposed to a college town. For some people, those factors might be worth $30k or whatever the Darrow stipend adds up to. But they're peer schools, by and large.

If you have more articulable academia goals (do you?), you should look into the relative strengths of those programs at Penn and Michigan.

[Sackboy]

Michigan is probably the call here. Penn is slightly better at placing into the tippy-top NYC corporate shops, and it's in a big city as opposed to a college town. For some people, those factors might be worth $30k or whatever the Darrow stipend adds up to. But they're peer schools, by and large.

If you have more articulable academia goals (do you?), you should look into the relative strengths of those programs at Penn and Michigan.

+1.

Chicago and H should both be out of the discussion due to cost. Personally, I'd much prefer Philly and Penn, but the Darrow makes just as much (if not more) sense. I'd visit both schools and see how you feel about them. As, LSA said, they're largely peers for your goals.

For the academia + appellate litigation track, you're going to want to do a COA clerkship (will probably need a District clerkship first), several years of appellate litigation biglaw, and a couple of VAPs. The probability of pulling all of that off is <5% at any school outside of maybe Y. That means there is a big chance that you don't pull it off. If you really want academia, you might need to get a PhD later on, especially if you don't do well enough to land prestigious clerkships/VAPs/get appellate lit experience. That means you'll have to deal with 5-6 years of $30k/yr. That means that you really can't afford to saddle yourself with debt at Chicago or H.

[lavarman84]

Michigan is probably the call here. Penn is slightly better at placing into the tippy-top NYC corporate shops, and it's in a big city as opposed to a college town. For some people, those factors might be worth $30k or whatever the Darrow stipend adds up to. But they're peer schools, by and large.

If you have more articulable academia goals (do you?), you should look into the relative strengths of those programs at Penn and Michigan.

+1.

Chicago and H should both be out of the discussion due to cost. Personally, I'd much prefer Philly and Penn, but the Darrow makes just as much (if not more) sense. I'd visit both schools and see how you feel about them. As, LSA said, they're largely peers for your goals.

For the academia + appellate litigation track, you're going to want to do a COA clerkship (will probably need a District clerkship first), several years of appellate litigation biglaw, and a couple of VAPs. The probability of pulling all of that off is <5% at any school outside of maybe Y. That means there is a big chance that you don't pull it off. If you really want academia, you might need to get a PhD later on, especially if you don't do well enough to land prestigious clerkships/VAPs/get appellate lit experience. That means you'll have to deal with 5-6 years of $30k/yr. That means that you really can't afford to saddle yourself with debt at Chicago or H.

I wouldn't be so quick to toss Harvard out. I'd like to know more about whether need-based aid will be available to OP. The Darrow is a great outcome, and if we're going to toss out H and C, I'd go with that. Michigan places better with clerkships, and OP would have a lower COA to boot. But for somebody seeking a lofty outcome (not quite unicorn, but it is lofty), I think Harvard is worth considering. Sticker price is always tough, though.

[Sackboy]

I wouldn't be so quick to toss Harvard out. I'd like to know more about whether need-based aid will be available to OP. The Darrow is a great outcome, and if we're going to toss out H and C, I'd go with that. Michigan places better with clerkships, and OP would have a lower COA to boot. But for somebody seeking a lofty outcome (not quite unicorn, but it is lofty), I think Harvard is worth considering. Sticker price is always tough, though.

H at max needs-based aid puts it at $150k in COA (iirc). If that's the case, I still have a hard time justifying it over Levy or Darrow, because I think OP would be paying $120k-$150k to increase the chance of this career path from like 5% to 10%. It's a defensible choice, but I'm not a big fan of it. I'd consider appellate lit to be pretty unicorn, assuming OP wants to be at a high-profile impact litigation shop or big law/boutique appellate lit group. Plenty of people roll out of COA clerkships and can't snag those positions. As for Penn, I don't think it's materially worse than Michigan at placing clerks. I think Penn just has the same culture as Columbia, Northwestern, and Cornell, where the primary focus is big law above all else; otherwise, I don't know how to explain places how places like Texas, Vandy, and WashU can pull up right next to those T13 with 10%, 9%, and 6% FC numbers, respectively.

[lavarman84]

I wouldn't be so quick to toss Harvard out. I'd like to know more about whether need-based aid will be available to OP. The Darrow is a great outcome, and if we're going to toss out H and C, I'd go with that. Michigan places better with clerkships, and OP would have a lower COA to boot. But for somebody seeking a lofty outcome (not quite unicorn, but it is lofty), I think Harvard is worth considering. Sticker price is always tough, though.

H at max needs-based aid puts it at $150k in COA (iirc). If that's the case, I still have a hard time justifying it over Levy or Darrow, because I think OP would be paying $120k-$150k to increase the chance of this career path from like 5% to 10%. It's a defensible choice, but I'm not a big fan of it. I'd consider appellate lit to be pretty unicorn, assuming OP wants to be at a high-profile impact litigation shop or big law/boutique appellate lit group. Plenty of people roll out of COA clerkships and can't snag those positions. As for Penn, I don't think it's materially worse than Michigan at placing clerks. I think Penn just has the same culture as Columbia, Northwestern, and Cornell, where the primary focus is big law above all else; otherwise, I don't know how to explain places how places like Texas, Vandy, and WashU can pull up right next to those T13 with 10%, 9%, and 6% FC numbers, respectively.

Some of it might be culture, but it also might be related to their respective markets and alumni networks. While Pennsylvania has a decent number of clerkships, I would imagine that there's a lot of competition for Penn students in the surrounding areas. NYC, DC, and even NJ and MA are very competitive. On the other hand, Texas is a massive state with a ton of clerkships, and UT dominates that state. Vandy has a lot of pull in the South. As for WashU, I think culture explains it pretty well there. That school goes HAM on trying to get students to clerk. Their students are pretty relentless in applying broadly from my experience.

But you're likely right that culture surely plays a part in Penn's placement. But the thing is that network can matter too. If Michigan has been placing better for years, they're more likely to have the sort of network that can keep that going. Regardless, both outcomes (Penn and Michigan) are stellar. Michigan would have the lower COA and seems as good as Penn for OP's goals, but yeah, if OP wants nothing to do with Ann Arbor, Penn is a defensible choice.

Regardless, as somebody who managed to pull the COA clerkship and appellate litigation outcome, I can tell you that the Harvard name would make life a tad easier. You're right that chances are still low. It's not easy. I did it from a school outside the t13. Let's just say I had extremely long odds to get to where I am and I wouldn't advise others to follow my path with that goal in mind. There were a lot of days where I wished I had that Harvard name on my resume. It would have made life a lot easier. But I also graduated with no debt, and I can say that not having that weight on my shoulders has made my life so much easier. If OP can walk out of a top law school with no or little debt, it's hard to advise against that scenario.

[crazywafflez]

This is a super hard decision. Honestly, I'd take Chicago out. If it were me I'd pick Penn. I can't make any rational sense of it but it is just what I'd do. If Harvard had aid I'd pick them. Honestly, turning down Harvard would be really hard (I'm not smart enough to even look at it hah). I think Michigan is a defensible choice here as well though- and getting a stipend would make a huge difference. I had a stipend offer, at a much much less prestigious school in my area (the south), and did not choose it. But honestly, I probs made the wrong choice. This is an insanely tough decision, cocngrats, and best of luck.

[LBJ's Hair]

I would do Penn or Mich. It sounds like you don't know what you want ("appellate litigation" and "professor" have little in common other than that they sound prestigious), and you shouldn't pay sticker at HLS when you could go to a T10 for free absent like, a truly compelling reason.

Appellate: Almost no non-gov lawyer in NYC has an exclusively appellate practice, regardless of credentials, firm prestige, etc. There aren't enough appeals, and they don't make much money. The DC shops have small teams, but that's a unicorn thing that the average HLS grad is never sniffing. If you have good (don't have to be fantastic) 1L grades and a year later are still really obsessed with "appellate litigation" you can transfer to HLS for the small prestige bump at OCI and clerkship applications, and you'll have saved a lot of money. And FWIW, you will have plenty of opportunities to write pro bono amicus briefs in an unpreftigious normal firm litigation job. (If you REALLY want to do appellate litigation, you could also join a state AG office a few years out of school -- you'll get plenty of appellate reps. But you know, what's the point of doing appellate litigation if you're not at a big law firm rubbing it in the corporate people's faces)

Academia: I actually think academia (at *a* law school, not necessarily a *good* one) is somewhat attainable if you're genuinely passionate about a specific "law and" topic, get a PhD, etc. There are a lot of hoops, but people do it. There was another poster awhile back who has interested in the intersection of computer science and law, had a master's from an Ivy Plus, etc. For that person, yeah HLS makes sense. But if that's not you -- like you just majored in politics and are "interested in public policy" like every other law student -- yeah, that's a pipe dream.

[QContinuum]

Regardless, as somebody who managed to pull the COA clerkship and appellate litigation outcome, I can tell you that the Harvard name would make life a tad easier. You're right that chances are still low. It's not easy. I did it from a school outside the t13. Let's just say I had extremely long odds to get to where I am and I wouldn't advise others to follow my path with that goal in mind. There were a lot of days where I wished I had that Harvard name on my resume. It would have made life a lot easier. But I also graduated with no debt, and I can say that not having that weight on my shoulders has made my life so much easier. If OP can walk out of a top law school with no or little debt, it's hard to advise against that scenario.

I think there's a world of difference between trying to snag COA/appellate lit from outside the T13, vs. from a very well-regarded school like Michigan or Penn. I don't think the Mich/Penn vs. Harvard difference is anywhere close to being as significant as the non-T13 vs. Harvard difference.

At any of Michigan, Penn or Harvard, you'd need strong grades and profs pulling for you to get the kind of COA clerkship that would position you to go into appellate litigation post-clerkship. You might be able to do it with slightly weaker grades from Harvard vs. from Michigan/Penn, but it's not like you're going to be waltzing into a D.C. Circuit clerkship from median at Harvard.

At equal cost, certainly take Harvard over Michigan/Penn, but we're talking about a tremendous cost differential here. The Harvard advantage is worth good money over Michigan/Penn for someone with appellate litigation ambitions, but I don't think it's worth anything close to $150k.

[lavarman84]

Regardless, as somebody who managed to pull the COA clerkship and appellate litigation outcome, I can tell you that the Harvard name would make life a tad easier. You're right that chances are still low. It's not easy. I did it from a school outside the t13. Let's just say I had extremely long odds to get to where I am and I wouldn't advise others to follow my path with that goal in mind. There were a lot of days where I wished I had that Harvard name on my resume. It would have made life a lot easier. But I also graduated with no debt, and I can say that not having that weight on my shoulders has made my life so much easier. If OP can walk out of a top law school with no or little debt, it's hard to advise against that scenario.

I think there's a world of difference between trying to snag COA/appellate lit from outside the T13, vs. from a very well-regarded school like Michigan or Penn. I don't think the Mich/Penn vs. Harvard difference is anywhere close to being as significant as the non-T13 vs. Harvard difference.

At any of Michigan, Penn or Harvard, you'd need strong grades and profs pulling for you to get the kind of COA clerkship that would position you to go into appellate litigation post-clerkship. You might be able to do it with slightly weaker grades from Harvard vs. from Michigan/Penn, but it's not like you're going to be waltzing into a D.C. Circuit clerkship from median at Harvard.

At equal cost, certainly take Harvard over Michigan/Penn, but we're talking about a tremendous cost differential here. The Harvard advantage is worth good money over Michigan/Penn for someone with appellate litigation ambitions, but I don't think it's worth anything close to $150k.

You just agreed with me in an argumentative tone. Regardless, OP's goals would be easier at Harvard, which is why I asked if aid is a possibility.