Brooklyn Law School vs. St Johns Law Forum

[ra568]

I'm getting more money from St Johns than Brooklyn (25K annually from St Johns vs 10K from Brooklyn).
Should the rankings that were released recently (2021 USNWR) have an impact on my decision?

[UVA2B]

No.

[UVA2B]

Let me be more clear:

Depending on your goals and the stipulation placed on the scholarship, it's theoretically possible you could pick one of these schools. But given what is likely the case here...

No.

[LSATWiz.com]

I think it would be foolish to look at current employment stats as a proxy for what to expect when you graduate. The reality is that the economic impact of COVID-19 will be felt for some time. I wouldn't graduate from any school in 2023 that you wouldn't be comfortable graduating from in 2013.

[cavalier1138]

Don't take on that much debt for either school.

[ra568]

Just to clarify and not sound bad or anything but money isnt really an issue for me (i won't be in debt)

[cavalier1138]

Just to clarify and not sound bad or anything but money isnt really an issue for me (i won't be in debt)

If you don't care about your (or your parents') money, then I guess this is as good a way as any to waste six figures.

But what do you want to do with your degree?

[ra568]

LMAOOO damn yall are cynical on here i just wanted to ask for an opinion haha i'm not sure yet but I know I want to work in NY lol

[cavalier1138]

LMAOOO damn yall are cynical on here i just wanted to ask for an opinion haha i'm not sure yet but I know I want to work in NY lol

Ok. Do you have even a vague idea of why you want to go to law school? An expected salary? Anything? The range of legal work in NY is huge, and Brooklyn/SJU only give you a reasonable shot at a portion of that work.

If you don't have some sort of idea of what you want to do with a JD, then you shouldn't be pursuing one.

[ra568]

I'm more interested in public interest law but thank you for telling me i shouldn't pursue a degree! It's been my dream since a while and not everyone scores super high on the LSAT so i should've anticipated that people on here would just tell me its not worth it. Thanks anyway!

[cavalier1138]

I'm more interested in public interest law but thank you for telling me i shouldn't pursue a degree! It's been my dream since a while and not everyone scores super high on the LSAT so i should've anticipated that people on here would just tell me its not worth it. Thanks anyway!

I'm telling you to not pursue a JD right now if you don't have at least a faint idea of what you want to do with that degree. I'd say the same thing if you thought you'd like to be a doctor because it's been your "dream since a while" but you didn't know the first thing about whether you wanted to practice medicine.

But now you're saying that you're leaning towards public interest. Do you have an idea of what kind of public interest law you'd be interested in?

[decimalsanddollars]

Gotta agree with Cav on this one. Law school is not necessarily a bad decision for everyone, but it is an objectively bad investment for most people, and you should only go to law school if you are well-educated about the risks and costs (and how to mitigate them).

Public interest law involves different risks and costs than biglaw, academia, etc. Perhaps the most significant cost is that, basically regardless of the position you secure, you won't make enough money to cover the face-value cost (let alone the opportunity cost) of your JD. One significant risk is that the most prestigious public interest positions and all public interest positions that pay reasonably well are more competitive than biglaw. Even positions like DA/PD/NGOs are quite selective, they have hard-to-navigate recruitment structures, and they pay very little. You should focus your decision on different schools' abilities to control the costs of choosing public interest (e.g. Yale's loan assistance program) and the risks of choosing that field (i.e. the school's success rate in placing PI-focused students in desired positions). Neither of the schools you mentioned are likely to make you competitive for the public interest positions you may think you want. Neither of these schools, as far as I know, has a cost-alleviating program like Ivy League schools do, or like NYU's RTK program. Unless a school has, say, full-ride scholarships for public interest, I don't think it would make economic sense to go.

To answer your initial question, though: No. Schools ranked below 20 fluctuate pretty widely from year to year as to their specific rankings, and these schools are basically peer schools and will almost certainly be basically peer schools in 3-5 years when you graduate.

[ra568]

Thank you for giving me a pretty thorough response, as I understand your perspective and I will definitely weigh my options. And thanks for answering my question about rankings as well.

[LSATWiz.com]

The reality is these were both bad options in the pre-Coronavirus economy. There's no reality in which the Coronavirus can have a positive impact on the legal economy. At best, the legal economy is back to where it was in three-years from now. At worst, it's closer to it was in 2009. The reality is probably in the middle so these two options are much worse than they were a month ago unless you had a guaranteed job upon graduation. You should be grateful you can still change your frame of reference and make a better investment. Those holding shares of Carnival Cruise Lines and Delta Airlines don't have the option you do

[ra568]

I never asked about anyone’s opinion of whether I should go to law school or not lmao. I understand what you’re saying about the economy that’s a valid point but honestly people before me have gone to these schools and lower ranked schools and ended up with jobs. It’s about the work you put in and the networking you do. If y’all don’t think these schools are worth the investment that’s your opinion but when someone asks a question on a public forum and you don’t have a helpful answer, it’s better to not respond or ignore which is an option you have.

[cavalier1138]

I never asked about anyone’s opinion of whether I should go to law school or not lmao. I understand what you’re saying about the economy that’s a valid point but honestly people before me have gone to these schools and lower ranked schools and ended up with jobs. It’s about the work you put in and the networking you do. If y’all don’t think these schools are worth the investment that’s your opinion but when someone asks a question on a public forum and you don’t have a helpful answer, it’s better to not respond or ignore which is an option you have.

If you ask a bunch of people who have gone through law school about applying to law school, maybe you should take a second to think about whether they might know a little bit more about it than you do.

But follow your dreams! That was a great tactic for everyone who graduated during the last recession.

[ra568]

My main question was whether rankings should have an impact on my decision and only one person responded to that lmao I appreciate that y’all are telling me about the potential costs and how this might not be a good investment but the way you went about it was rude and that just now... lol. You shouldn’t downright discourage someone especially when you don’t know what people go through to get here. But I’m sure you don’t care about how you come off to others so whatever.

[decimalsanddollars]

My main question was whether rankings should have an impact on my decision and only one person responded to that lmao I appreciate that y’all are telling me about the potential costs and how this might not be a good investment but the way you went about it was rude and that just now... lol. You shouldn’t downright discourage someone especially when you don’t know what people go through to get here. But I’m sure you don’t care about how you come off to others so whatever.

As one of the two posters who answered your question directly, I should clarify that I gave a thorough description of one of the many factors that should weigh into your decision because it's clear from your responses that you haven't thought this through. Law school is a tough value proposition for anyone, and it doesn't make sense to focus on a variable difference between two Tier 2 schools in the same city (neither in Manhattan, fwiw) when you are choosing not to think about the costs and benefits of going to law school *at all* and specifically going to a Tier 2 law school for mostly full price without a plan.

[Johnnybgoode92]

My main question was whether rankings should have an impact on my decision and only one person responded to that lmao I appreciate that y’all are telling me about the potential costs and how this might not be a good investment but the way you went about it was rude and that just now... lol. You shouldn’t downright discourage someone especially when you don’t know what people go through to get here. But I’m sure you don’t care about how you come off to others so whatever.

“Is 2 or 8 a prime number? I recall one of them is”
“Actually neither is. A prime number is”
“I didn’t ask that!”

Your assumptions here aren’t helpful for your prospects. You came onto an anonymous chat board for advice and you don’t like it. Tough. Don’t go to law school is my two cents. Your options aren’t great and you seem thin skinned.

[nixy]

But FWIW - no, the rankings shouldn't have an impact on your decision. Your decision should be based on how likely a school is to get you the job you want in the location you want that will allow you to pay back whatever debt you have to take out to attend.

[QContinuum]

I never asked about anyone’s opinion of whether I should go to law school or not lmao. I understand what you’re saying about the economy that’s a valid point but honestly people before me have gone to these schools and lower ranked schools and ended up with jobs. It’s about the work you put in and the networking you do. If y’all don’t think these schools are worth the investment that’s your opinion but when someone asks a question on a public forum and you don’t have a helpful answer, it’s better to not respond or ignore which is an option you have.

If you ask a bunch of people who have gone through law school about applying to law school, maybe you should take a second to think about whether they might know a little bit more about it than you do.

But follow your dreams! That was a great tactic for everyone who graduated during the last recession.

Honestly, cav, people before you have spent their life savings betting on horse races and ended up winning against all odds. It's about the work you put in to investigate each horse and the networking you do with the owners and jockeys. If you don't think horse racing's worth the investment that's your opinion but when someone asks a question on a public forum and you don't have a helpful answer, it's better to not respond or ignore which is an option you have.

[LSATWiz.com]

My main question was whether rankings should have an impact on my decision and only one person responded to that lmao I appreciate that y’all are telling me about the potential costs and how this might not be a good investment but the way you went about it was rude and that just now... lol. You shouldn’t downright discourage someone especially when you don’t know what people go through to get here. But I’m sure you don’t care about how you come off to others so whatever.

In Jack London's Call to the Wild, the protagonist tells us that only one in seven men returns alive from Alaska during the gold rush and that he'll be that one in seven. We admire his drive because he wants wealth and will do anything to get it, but we'd admire him less if he turned down taking a private jet to walk across Alaska.

Yes, people have gone to both schools and even unaccredited law schools and succeeded, but the reality is that if you're in a major city like NYC you're going to be dependent on getting work out of school to succeed so the job placement of schools matter and they matter a lot. Now many people can succeed without starting off with a high salary in law, but you need to get a job that enables you to learn marketable skills so you can grow as an attorney.

Law is structured such that if you don't have a certain type of job coming out of law school, it is impossible to ever get it. There are expected benchmarks you need to reach. A much higher percentage of people from the schools you mention got those jobs over the last 2-3 years than who got them 5-6 years ago. In 10 years, their careers will probably be further along than those who graduated before them. Were these new grads smarter or better in any meaningful way? No, the economy was just such that it could support a surplus of lawyers.

Not taking the economy into account when choosing a law school would be like the equivalent of investing in airlines or cruise ships without taking into account worldwide travel bans. The reality is these would both be very risky choices at those prices if the economy was golden, but we are now at least temporarily in 2008 territory.

Working and experienced attorneys are worried about their futures because of the COVID-19 pandemic. Lawyers depend on economic movement for legal work, and even if they are busy now, the existing work will be completed. The reality is that most employers will be operating at a loss for at least 6 months and potentially more. They won't be able to support the same growth structure they previously had in place so we're likely going to be looking at a temporary return to 2008 levels that will impact some classes. It might impact your graduating class. It might not. Nobody really knows, but you should consider whether you'd be comfortable graduating from Brooklyn or St. John's with that debt if it was 2008.

You say that you don't really want to hear about retaking the LSAT to get into schools with better placement, but the fact you care about rank indicates that you value prestige to at least some extent. You want to go to the school that seems better. People are telling you that nobody cares about that, and you should only think about job placement. That's practical advice. The idea is why settle for a school that gives you a 50% shot of getting a job you'd be happy with when you could attend one that gives you a 90% shot? In light of the pandemic, those odds may be more like 65-20. Schools like Brooklyn and St. John's, those that aren't terrible but are no where near elite, tend to be the ones hit hardest by recessions.

I'm saying to just think about it. I'd be weary of expecting to get gainful employment in NYC in 3 years coming from anything below Fordham. The $45k difference only matters in light of total cost, which you can't muster up from scholarship alone. Law schools and scholarships are like Jos-A Bank and suits. They take a $99 suit and sticker it for $499 but always have crazy sales that make it $99 so you feel like you're getting a bargain on this great suit.

If you do go to one of these, I'd make sure that others don't receive scholarships contingent on a certain class rank and that the school doesn't have any accusations of section stacking. The LSAT is somewhat predictive of 1L performance, and section stacking is a process by which schools put those with contingent scholarships in a specific section to ensure a certain percentage lose their scholarships. This allows schools to boost profits while inflating their admission numbers by attracting students who would not have attended but for the scholarship offer.

Many people say that you should negotiate away the stipulations. I don't buy into that because if you can't crack the top forty percent or so at St. John's and Brooklyn, and don't look like a character on Baywatch your odds of getting good employment coming out are next to nil. In that situation, you should almost always drop out regardless. The reason I'd strongly urge you against schools where section stacking is a possibility is because unless you're at the very top or bottom of every class, your grades will be lower because of it.

At schools like Brooklyn and St. John's you can anticipate that at least 25% of your class is going to be naturally weak at law school exams and about 25% will be naturally good at them. Roughly half of every class gets a grade at or very close to the median. If you're good at taking the exams and treat it like a 9-5 job, it's pretty easy to do well because you're unlikely to ever get below median at these schools and you only need to shine on a few exams to wind up with a nice class standing. At schools with section stacking, many scholarship students who would likely have wound up in the top 10% in a random distribution do not wind up in the top 10%, and those slots are taken by non-scholarship students.

The reason this matter is because while you may have say a 40% shot at a certain outcome going in, after 1L exams, that 40 becomes more like 70/10. You should know that it is not elitism that is dictating the feedback you're getting. There's no "you're not smart enough because you didn't get into this school" so don't do it even if that's how it may seem to you right now. Nobody knows you, and it's certainly possible that you can be the 1:7 like Jack Wild's character aspires to be. Because none of us know you, we are coming about this in a non-personal objective way and treating you like a # we apply against the statistics. That's what is dictating the advice.

As for your exact question, Brooklyn does place somewhat better in Manhattan and Brooklyn and St. Johns places somewhat better in Queens and Long Island. And just to sum up why people seem to stress job placement so much, if you come out of law school and wind up doing doc review like many graduates at these schools do, many legal employers will never even look at you. It's different than it was 30-years ago when there wasn't a saturation of lawyers and opportunities were available to everyone who could pass the bar such that grit and determination won out, meaning you're more likely to see more St. John's grads doing better than Harvard grads from the baby boomer generation than in subsequent ones. Further, many of those really successful grads you seem to be referencing started their own practice and struggled for their first few years. Law school was much cheaper back then so if you could live off of peanut butter and jelly and don't mind living with a roommate into your early 30s, you could go a few years with little to no income. The debt load simply makes that option unavailable for young attorneys so they wind up taking any job offer that comes their way.

I know this post is long but I hope it clears up both why you're getting the feedback you're getting, and explains why you can't use the 1970's and 1980's as a proxy for the legal world today.

[antelope]

Rankings don't matter, those can change drastically from year to year. Just go to 7sage law school rankings and see for yourself how they've changed for those 2 schools, they have a graph for every school. Rankings change a lot outside the first 19 schools, which are usually the same group. If a school suddenly moves up 10 spots but drops 5 the next year, it doesn't mean that the quality/outcomes drastically changed from one year to another, outcomes/quality tends to be consistent at most schools.

What should matter are the outcomes, employment numbers, and places where students go to work. Look at salaries, percentage of students not employed full-time after 9 months in bar passage required positions, and ask if you're comfortable with those numbers. Some students do get great outcomes from these schools but, when you look at statistics, they're less than 20% of each class.

What other posters have brought up in this thread isn't ill-advised, they have a point, you should think about opportunity cost. For a lot of people, law school's not a good financial decision and they go in without proper research.

In the end, it's up to you, just make sure you're making an informed decision

[cavalier1138]

I never asked about anyone’s opinion of whether I should go to law school or not lmao. I understand what you’re saying about the economy that’s a valid point but honestly people before me have gone to these schools and lower ranked schools and ended up with jobs. It’s about the work you put in and the networking you do. If y’all don’t think these schools are worth the investment that’s your opinion but when someone asks a question on a public forum and you don’t have a helpful answer, it’s better to not respond or ignore which is an option you have.

If you ask a bunch of people who have gone through law school about applying to law school, maybe you should take a second to think about whether they might know a little bit more about it than you do.

But follow your dreams! That was a great tactic for everyone who graduated during the last recession.

Honestly, cav, people before you have spent their life savings betting on horse races and ended up winning against all odds. It's about the work you put in to investigate each horse and the networking you do with the owners and jockeys. If you don't think horse racing's worth the investment that's your opinion but when someone asks a question on a public forum and you don't have a helpful answer, it's better to not respond or ignore which is an option you have.

I feel like the OP isn't going to understand the sarcasm...

[ra568]

My main question was whether rankings should have an impact on my decision and only one person responded to that lmao I appreciate that y’all are telling me about the potential costs and how this might not be a good investment but the way you went about it was rude and that just now... lol. You shouldn’t downright discourage someone especially when you don’t know what people go through to get here. But I’m sure you don’t care about how you come off to others so whatever.

“Is 2 or 8 a prime number? I recall one of them is”
“Actually neither is. A prime number is”
“I didn’t ask that!”

Your assumptions here aren’t helpful for your prospects. You came onto an anonymous chat board for advice and you don’t like it. Tough. Don’t go to law school is my two cents. Your options aren’t great and you seem thin skinned.

You literally don’t know me and you say I’m thin skinned lmao. It’s an anonymous forum and yet you’ve already made an assumption about me haha