Michigan $$$$+ vs Columbia Forum

[tenpercent]

I’m still waiting on Stanford, NYU, and Berkely but I don’t have much hope for Stanford/Berk and I’m assuming I wouldn’t get much/any money from NYU.

Michigan total debt upon graduation (including undergrad): +$44k

Columbia total debt (with undergrad): -120k

I have interest in clerking and academia, and I am not opposed to working biglaw for a few years and potentially trying to move in-house. I would also be interested in unicorn government positions. I guess in general I am trying to leave as many doors open for myself as I can.
I know leaving Michigan with 0 debt would be life changing, but I would truly regret having some future door closed to me that Columbia might have opened. I would appreciate any insight.

Is Columbia worth the debt or am I being dumb, take the money and run?

Edit: Would like to eventually move Colorado/west coast

[dvlthndr]

Columbia would only marginally improve your chances of clerkships or academia. Columbia would give you a leg up if you wanted to eventually clerk/work in New York, and there might be some extra options available for the kids at the very top of the class that you can't get at Michigan (e.g., more professors pulling strings to land you with feeder judges), but that's about it.

Given your long term goals, I don't think it's worth the difference in price. The only school you listed that would make enough of a difference to justify a huge jump in price would be Stanford.

[dabigchina]

Are you saying that Columbia is going to cost you an extra 166k? If so, it's Michigan by a country mile. If you're saying Columbia is only going to cost an extra 80k, it's a closer decision, but I would still take Michigan given your goals. Columbia has great placement power, but that gets diluted outside of NYC biglaw, where it's just seen as another good school on par with the rest of the T14.

Also, given Columbia's historically weak clerkship placement numbers, I'm not even sure it would open up any clerkships that you wouldn't be able to get from Michigan (assuming comparable performance).

[The Lsat Airbender]

Columbia's advantage, in terms of outcomes, lies mainly in NYC biglaw (less likely to strike out and more likely to get an offer from an "elite" V5 or whatever). That could matter, depending on what kind of unicorn jobs you're talking about (SEC enforcement?). Outside of a concrete, specific plan, though, I don't think the $164k price delta is even close to worth it.

Stanford would be a different conversation, since it's substantially stronger for clerking/academia and, of course, is the gold standard on the West Coast -- even then I'd be careful about swallowing such a massive debt pill.

edit: ninja'd by others

[Libya]

I’m still waiting on Stanford, NYU, and Berkely but I don’t have much hope for Stanford/Berk and I’m assuming I wouldn’t get much/any money from NYU.

Michigan total debt upon graduation (including undergrad): +$44k

Columbia total debt (with undergrad): -120k

I have interest in clerking and academia, and I am not opposed to working biglaw for a few years and potentially trying to move in-house. I would also be interested in unicorn government positions. I guess in general I am trying to leave as many doors open for myself as I can.
I know leaving Michigan with 0 debt would be life changing, but I would truly regret having some future door closed to me that Columbia might have opened. I would appreciate any insight.

Is Columbia worth the debt or am I being dumb, take the money and run?

Edit: Would like to eventually move Colorado/west coast

I’d say take the $$$$. I made the opposite choice (except for HLS instead of CLS) FWIW. Not really sure if there’s many if any doors CLS will open that Michigan won’t; and if so it’d be on the margins. Sure, you’ll likely end up at a higher ranked NYC law firm coming CLS but this most likely isn’t worth the money and probably won’t matter to you anyway. I don’t see how working your ass of at DPW is worth 150K more than doing the same at Paul Hastings or Milbank. If it was YLS I’d say roll the dice, and possibly even SLS too. CLS seems like a no go to me, however. If I misread the COA numbers, and CLS is only like 70K more expensive, however, I’d at least consider it; would still probably advise to take michigan though

[tenpercent]

Are you saying that Columbia is going to cost you an extra 166k?

Yes Columbia would cost me 166k more. I would graduate Michigan with money in the bank.

[LBJ's Hair]

I'd ask for more money from Columbia and see where the final numbers come down.

Only ~60% Michigan's grads are in: NY/CHI (I assume that's what Illinois is)/CA/DC. 1/4 of their clerkships are state court. <25% of students going to NYC, if that's your goal. This is off their website.

Profile is a little different than Columbia's. Think the people pooh-poohing the difference between the two schools are understating it a little. There are 14 Mich associates at S&C and 60 from Columbia, 13 Mich associates at Cravath and 70 from Columbia...etc

My point isn't "hurrrr durrr prestige" it's more like "you want to be at a law firm with high PPP so that if/when we have a recession you aren't fired immediately, so that the partners don't view you like an 18 month churn and burn monkey" etc

Prob wouldn't pay an extra $200K to go to Columbia, but at equal cost this really isn't a question, so worth seeing how much you can get from them

[Sawtooth]

Michigan 3L here, so obviously biased, but I think looking at the number of associates at "V5" NY offices is a pretty imperfect measure of Michigan's placement power. Self-selection plays a pretty big role, both in students wanting to do public interest and recognizing that NY BigLaw basically means (probably) more work for less pay in comparison to other markets. I have plenty of friends who had offers at places like Cravath/SC who opted to go to other cities.

Michigan also has a pretty dispersed alumni base, so you would likely find a bigger pool of Michigan grads in Colorado/the West Coast. Denver is a pretty small market, but I can think of three or four classmates who are headed to firms there.

Also, the fact that 1/4 of Michigan's clerkships are with state courts is again at least partially due to self-selection. There is a very dedicated group of students at Michigan who plan on becoming public defenders or doing legal aid, and spending time in a state trial court seems pretty applicable to those paths.

Also, LOL at the idea that high PPP firms are less likely to view associates as being "churn and burn monkeys." Having less than 50k of debt is going to be waayyyy better (especially in a recession, but also like overall) than having a marginally better shot at working for SC.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Michigan 3L here, so obviously biased, but I think looking at the number of associates at "V5" NY offices is a pretty imperfect measure of Michigan's placement power.

I mean, it's a great measurement of placement power at top NYC biglaw, which is something a lot of people (perhaps foolishly) care about.

[dabigchina]

Agree on all points with the Michigan 3l.

Just for refernce, Sullivan and cromwells gpa floor is 3.6 for Columbia and 3.7 for Michigan. At median, you're not waltzing into a v5 from either school.

Also, I'd take a hard look at Columbia's clerkship numbers. When I was there a couple years ago, they seriously lagged hysccn. There has been extensivd turnover in the clerkship office. I've also heard people complain that there isn't a culture of professors going to bat for their students (I wouldn't know or care personally, I'm a corporate drone.)

Columbia is a great school. It's not worth an extra 160k. If you can get the difference down to within 60k or so, it would be defensible. Note that the difference in COL is going to run you at least 10k a year, so CLS would really need to step up to make.it happen.

[LBJ's Hair]

OK, come on people lol some of this is just ridiculous

Agree on all points with the Michigan 3l.

Just for refernce, Sullivan and cromwells gpa floor is 3.6 for Columbia and 3.7 for Michigan. At median, you're not waltzing into a v5 from either school.

Also, I'd take a hard look at Columbia's clerkship numbers. When I was there a couple years ago, they seriously lagged hysccn. There has been extensivd turnover in the clerkship office. I've also heard people complain that there isn't a culture of professors going to bat for their students (I wouldn't know or care personally, I'm a corporate drone.)

I don't know or care what the specific GPA cutoffs are, I'm looking more at the number of spots allocated in the summer class. A firm could have the same GPA cutoff but target 6 offers a year for Michigan and 60 for Columbia. Fact that there's a different cutoff makes this even worse.

Regarding clerkships, if Columbia's is "bad," then Michigan is "very bad"...

"V5" NY offices is a pretty imperfect measure of Michigan's placement power. Self-selection plays a pretty big role, both in students wanting to do public interest and recognizing that NY BigLaw basically means (probably) more work for less pay in comparison to other markets. I have plenty of friends who had offers at places like Cravath/SC who opted to go to other cities.

Michigan also has a pretty dispersed alumni base, so you would likely find a bigger pool of Michigan grads in Colorado/the West Coast. Denver is a pretty small market, but I can think of three or four classmates who are headed to firms there.

Also, the fact that 1/4 of Michigan's clerkships are with state courts is again at least partially due to self-selection. There is a very dedicated group of students at Michigan who plan on becoming public defenders or doing legal aid, and spending time in a state trial court seems pretty applicable to those paths.

1. V5 placement is a good measure of ability to get to a top job in NY BigLaw.
2. 10% of Mich graduates go to CA, ~25-30 people a year. Same # as Columbia. Neither of them send a lot. If you want a dispersed alumni base with truly national brand name power, that's Harvard/Yale.
3. No one does a state court clerkship because it's "better for being a public defender," that's like preposterous. "Being a public defender" gets you a job as a public defender. You do a state court clerkship because you didn't get a federal court clerkship.

[LBJ's Hair]

To be clear I think Michigan is a great law school -- it's top 10! Leaning Michigan at the cost delta being quoted, although Columbia would probably come down if you negotiate.

But we don't to pretend that Michigan students have some idiosyncratic reason for choosing state court clerkships, or that Michigan has some large public interest contingent (5-6% do it, just like Columbia) skewing the numbers.

[dabigchina]

OK, come on people lol some of this is just ridiculous

Agree on all points with the Michigan 3l.

Just for refernce, Sullivan and cromwells gpa floor is 3.6 for Columbia and 3.7 for Michigan. At median, you're not waltzing into a v5 from either school.

Also, I'd take a hard look at Columbia's clerkship numbers. When I was there a couple years ago, they seriously lagged hysccn. There has been extensivd turnover in the clerkship office. I've also heard people complain that there isn't a culture of professors going to bat for their students (I wouldn't know or care personally, I'm a corporate drone.)

I don't know or care what the specific GPA cutoffs are, I'm looking more at the number of spots allocated in the summer class. A firm could have the same GPA cutoff but target 6 offers a year for Michigan and 60 for Columbia. Fact that there's a different cutoff makes this even worse.

Regarding clerkships, if Columbia's is "bad," then Michigan is "very bad"...

"V5" NY offices is a pretty imperfect measure of Michigan's placement power. Self-selection plays a pretty big role, both in students wanting to do public interest and recognizing that NY BigLaw basically means (probably) more work for less pay in comparison to other markets. I have plenty of friends who had offers at places like Cravath/SC who opted to go to other cities.

Michigan also has a pretty dispersed alumni base, so you would likely find a bigger pool of Michigan grads in Colorado/the West Coast. Denver is a pretty small market, but I can think of three or four classmates who are headed to firms there.

Also, the fact that 1/4 of Michigan's clerkships are with state courts is again at least partially due to self-selection. There is a very dedicated group of students at Michigan who plan on becoming public defenders or doing legal aid, and spending time in a state trial court seems pretty applicable to those paths.

1. V5 placement is a good measure of ability to get to a top job in NY BigLaw.
2. 10% of Mich graduates go to CA, ~25-30 people a year. Same # as Columbia. Neither of them send a lot. If you want a dispersed alumni base with truly national brand name power, that's Harvard/Yale.
3. No one does a state court clerkship because it's "better for being a public defender," that's like preposterous. "Being a public defender" gets you a job as a public defender. You do a state court clerkship because you didn't get a federal court clerkship.

Ok, but if law students should care about working at a PREFTIGIOUS firm like s&c, then they should look at how attainable it is from the school they are going to. I specifically cited s&c because they are known to base hiring decisions especially heavily on grades.

If we just look at total number of spots allocated, u would get conclusions like Columbia having better placement power than Yale and Stanford.

As for clerkships - per LST, 13% of Michigan's class of 2018 got fed clerkships. 5% of Columbia's did. At least look up the numbers before making sweeping generalizations.

To be clear, I'm not some Stan for Michigan. I went to CLS. My problem is that CLS's value proposition is weak, given OP's goals, and I'd be shocked if CLS budged on their scholarship offer because of OP's scholarship (at least they refused to do so for me).

[The Lsat Airbender]

Classic TLS thread, with pretty much everyone concurring (Michigan preferable here, would be closer if CLS were only about $60 more expensive) and yet finding intense disagreement.

[decimalsanddollars]

Michigan, take the money and run. I won't wade into the current disagreement as to why, but this should be a pretty easy decision.

[tenpercent]

To be clear I think Michigan is a great law school -- it's top 10! Leaning Michigan at the cost delta being quoted, although Columbia would probably come down if you negotiate.

But we don't to pretend that Michigan students have some idiosyncratic reason for choosing state court clerkships, or that Michigan has some large public interest contingent (5-6% do it, just like Columbia) skewing the numbers.

Unfortunately I can’t get any aid money at Columbia, so that COA is likely as good as it gets. There is the potentiality that I can get it down to around 60k total debt but that is far from certain.

[Sawtooth]

To be clear I think Michigan is a great law school -- it's top 10! Leaning Michigan at the cost delta being quoted, although Columbia would probably come down if you negotiate.

But we don't to pretend that Michigan students have some idiosyncratic reason for choosing state court clerkships, or that Michigan has some large public interest contingent (5-6% do it, just like Columbia) skewing the numbers.

Michigan definitely has a public interest contingent that is larger than 5-6%.

Also, imo I think these board often over-emphasize the relatively marginal difference in BigLaw opportunities within the T13 (especially non-HYS schools). Students who end up doing really well will have their pick of firms, students materially below median will have limited options and risk striking out. Within the T13, how you perform will matter a lot more than if you picked NYU instead of Cornell. So take the money.

[trebekismyhero]

Michigan, take the money and run. I won't wade into the current disagreement as to why, but this should be a pretty easy decision.

+1. If you get into Stanford then maybe worth a discussion, but Michigan here by a mile

[Bonzeye]

I have to say, ending up more than 40k ahead with a prestigious law degree seems like a great place to be with the possibility of a recession looming in the next decade. Letting one or two doors stay closed may be the best option when you find yourself 32 with (family, a portfolio) to care for and law school is in the past. As has been said in this thread, your performance in law school matters significantly more than the relative advantages a school can offer.

[tenpercent]

I have to say, ending up more than 40k ahead with a prestigious law degree seems like a great place to be with the possibility of a recession looming in the next decade. Letting one or two doors stay closed may be the best option when you find yourself 32 with (family, a portfolio) to care for and law school is in the past. As has been said in this thread, your performance in law school matters significantly more than the relative advantages a school can offer.

I will be graduating around 32 so this speaks to me even more.

[Wild Card]

As for clerkships - per LST, 13% of Michigan's class of 2018 got fed clerkships. 5% of Columbia's did. At least look up the numbers before making sweeping generalizations.

To be clear, I'm not some Stan for Michigan. I went to CLS. My problem is that CLS's value proposition is weak, given OP's goals, and I'd be shocked if CLS budged on their scholarship offer because of OP's scholarship (at least they refused to do so for me).

Well, be careful about interpreting those figures. CLS and NYU both appear to be struggling at 5% Fed Clerk because graduates of those schools tend to target only major metropolitan areas and therefore are forced to compete with YLS and HLS grads, as well as magna+PBK grads from other top law schools.

If you look at Berkeley, for instance, its figure is high because its graduates prefer the West Coast--but its only real competition there is Stanford, and West Coasters who attend other top law schools. Likewise, Michigan's only real competition in the Midwest is Chicago and Northwestern, and Midwesterners who attend other top law schools.
--

To answer OP's question, I don't think a CLS degree is worth $200k more than a Michigan degree. YLS, yes. SLS and HLS, strong maybes. But CLS, definitely not.

[tenpercent]

As for clerkships - per LST, 13% of Michigan's class of 2018 got fed clerkships. 5% of Columbia's did. At least look up the numbers before making sweeping generalizations.

To be clear, I'm not some Stan for Michigan. I went to CLS. My problem is that CLS's value proposition is weak, given OP's goals, and I'd be shocked if CLS budged on their scholarship offer because of OP's scholarship (at least they refused to do so for me).

To answer OP's question, I don't think a CLS degree is worth $200k more than a Michigan degree. YLS, yes. SLS and HLS, strong maybes. But CLS, definitely not.

Thank you for the response. What about 120k more? 60k?

[dvlthndr]

Well, be careful about interpreting those figures. CLS and NYU both appear to be struggling at 5% Fed Clerk because graduates of those schools tend to target only major metropolitan areas and therefore are forced to compete with YLS and HLS grads, as well as magna+PBK grads from other top law schools.

The bigger issue is the ABA only report people getting clerkships directly out of school. It doesn't capture people that land a clerkship starting 1-2 years after graduation (which is a common hiring practice in competitive districts like EDNY, SDNY, 2nd, etc.). Columbia self-reports here: https://www.law.columbia.edu/judicial-clerkships. The number of people clerking in a given year is closer to ~100 or so (compared to a class size of 400).

[Wild Card]

Thank you for the response. What about 120k more? 60k?

I don't think there's a bright line. I chose NYU ($60,000 scholarship) over Michigan ($90,000) and Georgetown ($120,000).

I didn't get into Columbia, but I would have preferred Columbia (say, $30,000) to NYU ($60,000).

So . . . I guess 60k.

But I'm a native New Yorker, I intend to stay in NY for the rest of my life, my family and friends are in NY, etc.

I don't think Columbia is that much better than Michigan. It doesn't carry any magical power in the way that Yale does. I think Yale is worth any amount of money, and Stanford and Harvard are roughly equivalent to named full scholarships at the top law schools. (Although I had a classmate at NYU who turned down the Dillard at UVA, which I thought was profoundly insane. This classmate was a K-JD who ended up below median and is now at a V100 firm.)

Think about it this way: $30,000 is equal to one year of biglaw, biglaw is an extremely painful job, and many biglaw associates don't last more than two years.

[dabigchina]

Well, be careful about interpreting those figures. CLS and NYU both appear to be struggling at 5% Fed Clerk because graduates of those schools tend to target only major metropolitan areas and therefore are forced to compete with YLS and HLS grads, as well as magna+PBK grads from other top law schools.

The bigger issue is the ABA only report people getting clerkships directly out of school. It doesn't capture people that land a clerkship starting 1-2 years after graduation (which is a common hiring practice in competitive districts like EDNY, SDNY, 2nd, etc.). Columbia self-reports here: https://www.law.columbia.edu/judicial-clerkships. The number of people clerking in a given year is closer to ~100 or so (compared to a class size of 400).

We should compare apples to apples. I'd be curious what the total number of michigan grads clerking in any given year is.

Regardless, the question is not whether Michigan is a better school than CLS (they are about equal, with a slight edge to CLS because of biglaw placement). The question is whether (i) CLS is worth the extra cost and (ii) whether it would open any doors that michigan would not . I believe the answer to both are no.

For the record, I paid an extra 60k a year to go to CLS. Personally, I felt like this was not really worth it, but to each his own.