NYU vs Chicago for Biglaw Forum

[kidkasparov123]

Where can I find info on Chicago and NYU's relative placement power in top biglaw? A lot of ppl make claims without providing sources. thanks

[nixy]

lawschooltransparency.com

look at the job stuff in the school reports and placement in federal clerkships and 500+ firms. it's not going to parse the quality of the different firms, but it's the best proxy we have.

[cavalier1138]

1. "Top biglaw" means a lot of things to a lot of people. What defines a "top" firm is going to differ significantly based on your practice area and region.

2. Aside from looking at how many associates at a given firm are from a school, there's no real way to do this. Schools don't produce this kind of specific data for external use.

But basically, if a firm has a higher-than-median GPA threshold for NYU, it will have a higher-than-median [Dungeons & Dragons character stats] threshold for Chicago.

[LBJ's Hair]

Where can I find info on Chicago and NYU's relative placement power in top biglaw? A lot of ppl make claims without providing sources. thanks

took like ~10 min, just went on websites and filtered by associate and school. draw your own conclusions. (this is the literal v10 + Cleary, I guess that's sort of arbitrary but any list necessarily is)

NYU
WLRK: 17
Cravath: 50
SullCrom: 27
DPW: 66
Cleary: 72
Skadden: 69
Kirkland: 65
PW: 93
Simpson: 43
Latham: 59
Gibson: ? (Search function annoying)

Chicago
WLRK: 5
Cravath: 14
SullCrom: 16
DPW: 12
Cleary: 27
Skadden: 42
Kirkland: 57
PW: 26
Simpson: 23
Latham: 38
Gibson: ? (search function annoying)

[Pennoyer v. Meh]

took like ~10 min, just went on websites and filtered by associate and school. draw your own conclusions

NYU
WLRK: 17
Cravath: 50
SullCrom: 27
DPW: 66
Cleary: 72
Skadden: 69
Kirkland: 65
PW: 93
Simpson: 43
Latham: 59
Gibson: ? (Search function annoying)

Chicago
WLRK: 5
Cravath: 14
SullCrom: 16
DPW: 12
Cleary: 27
Skadden: 42
Kirkland: 57
PW: 26
Simpson: 23
Latham: 38
Gibson: ? (search function annoying)

That's for just NYC, I assume? I'm not gonna run the numbers for D.C. offices, or LA, or Chicago, but it's possible (likely?) that they're different for at least some of the firms, just to add more credence to the idea underlying "draw your own conclusions."

[LBJ's Hair]

took like ~10 min, just went on websites and filtered by associate and school. draw your own conclusions

NYU
WLRK: 17
Cravath: 50
SullCrom: 27
DPW: 66
Cleary: 72
Skadden: 69
Kirkland: 65
PW: 93
Simpson: 43
Latham: 59
Gibson: ? (Search function annoying)

Chicago
WLRK: 5
Cravath: 14
SullCrom: 16
DPW: 12
Cleary: 27
Skadden: 42
Kirkland: 57
PW: 26
Simpson: 23
Latham: 38
Gibson: ? (search function annoying)

That's for just NYC, I assume? I'm not gonna run the numbers for D.C. offices, or LA, or Chicago, but it's possible (likely?) that they're different for at least some of the firms, just to add more credence to the idea underlying "draw your own conclusions."

this includes all offices - just filtered lawyers by school and associate

[Splurgles23]

Some of these numbers are interesting. I wonder for example if WLRK has a (relatively) special affinity for NYU given their history, as 17 seems like a lot for such a small/selective firm.

[LBJ's Hair]

if someone wants to add more firms, would be interesting - my intuition is Sidley would have proportionally more Chicago students bc of the larger Chicago office, etc

[dvlthndr]

Keep in mind the different class sizes (Chicago has ~200, NYU has ~425). Location also matters, hence the sheer number of Chicago kids that wind up working at Kirkland.

[kidkasparov123]

Thanks guys

[Wild Card]

NYU publishes summer associate class lists. If Chicago does the same, I'd be happy to pull 3 years of data or something.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Some of these numbers are interesting. I wonder for example if WLRK has a (relatively) special affinity for NYU given their history, as 17 seems like a lot for such a small/selective firm.

WLRK has about 130-140 associates per NALP and overwhelmingly recruits T6+Penn. So NYU's 17 (about 13%) is merely respectable IMO.

Chicago's 5 seems weak but like Stanford (which only has three associates, per website) that probably has a lot to do with geography and class size.

[QContinuum]

As pointed out above, don't compare raw placement numbers. Factor in the fact that NYU's class size is 2.1x Chicago's. Also, factor in (though hard to do quantitatively) the selection factor of many Chicago students wanting to stay in Chicago (even at the "expense" of working for a "lower" Vault firm).

All in all, Chicago's a stronger school than NYU (except NYU RTK for public interest). Chicago also has the advantage of an idiosyncratic numeric grading scale*, whereas NYU has the disadvantage of having B-s on the curve (unlike the rest of the T6, including Columbia). At equal cost, certainly attend Chicago.

(*The V50 etc. are certainly familiar with Chicago's numeric grading scale, but there are many other employers, particularly outside of BigLaw, that will be less familiar with the scale, in which case a "bad" Chicago GPA will be less of a hindrance than a "bad" NYU GPA.)

[rk42]

As pointed out above, don't compare raw placement numbers. Factor in the fact that NYU's class size is 2.1x Chicago's. Also, factor in (though hard to do quantitatively) the selection factor of many Chicago students wanting to stay in Chicago (even at the "expense" of working for a "lower" Vault firm).

All in all, Chicago's a stronger school than NYU (except NYU RTK for public interest). Chicago also has the advantage of an idiosyncratic numeric grading scale*, whereas NYU has the disadvantage of having B-s on the curve (unlike the rest of the T6, including Columbia). At equal cost, certainly attend Chicago.

(*The V50 etc. are certainly familiar with Chicago's numeric grading scale, but there are many other employers, particularly outside of BigLaw, that will be less familiar with the scale, in which case a "bad" Chicago GPA will be less of a hindrance than a "bad" NYU GPA.)

NYU is eliminating B-'s on the curve.

[QContinuum]

NYU is eliminating B-'s on the curve.

Good news for NYU students! Having B-s on the curve didn't make sense for a T6. When will this change happen? What was the impetus behind it - was it driven by students, career services, the faculty...?

[rk42]

NYU is eliminating B-'s on the curve.

Good news for NYU students! Having B-s on the curve didn't make sense for a T6. When will this change happen? What was the impetus behind it - was it driven by students, career services, the faculty...?

They announced it at ASW so I'm assuming next year. Think it was driven largely by students (SBA).

[logan3000]

NYU is also apparently cutting their class size down this year to ~375 (per somebody’s reddit post about the ASW).

Personally had also been a bit leery of the grading scale + class size etc but those changes should definitely help reduce a bit of the worst-case scenario employment risk.

[LBJ's Hair]

As pointed out above, don't compare raw placement numbers. Factor in the fact that NYU's class size is 2.1x Chicago's. Also, factor in (though hard to do quantitatively) the selection factor of many Chicago students wanting to stay in Chicago (even at the "expense" of working for a "lower" Vault firm).

All in all, Chicago's a stronger school than NYU (except NYU RTK for public interest). Chicago also has the advantage of an idiosyncratic numeric grading scale*, whereas NYU has the disadvantage of having B-s on the curve (unlike the rest of the T6, including Columbia). At equal cost, certainly attend Chicago.

(*The V50 etc. are certainly familiar with Chicago's numeric grading scale, but there are many other employers, particularly outside of BigLaw, that will be less familiar with the scale, in which case a "bad" Chicago GPA will be less of a hindrance than a "bad" NYU GPA.)

What is the argument for that, other than UChicago's USNWR ranking? Possible, but not sure I follow.

After looking at this, my sense is if your goal is to work in BigLaw (particularly corporate) and don't have a Chicago geographic preference, you should go to NYU. UChicago is underrepresented (even adjusting for class size) at most of the highest-PPP firms, sometimes dramatically so---see Cravath/PW.

If you're a high-end clerkship/professorship gunner, there are very strong arguments for Chicago. It's sort of discount-YLS: Smaller classes, some young star professors, conservative-friendly environment, good COA clerkship placement, a great academic fellowship that favors UChicago Law applicants.

But it seems to me that there are some tradeoffs (unlike with HLS/YLS), discussed above.

[QContinuum]

All in all, Chicago's a stronger school than NYU (except NYU RTK for public interest). Chicago also has the advantage of an idiosyncratic numeric grading scale*, whereas NYU has the disadvantage of having B-s on the curve (unlike the rest of the T6, including Columbia). At equal cost, certainly attend Chicago.

What is the argument for that, other than UChicago's USNWR ranking? Possible, but not sure I follow.

After looking at this, my sense is if your goal is to work in BigLaw (particularly corporate) and don't have a Chicago geographic preference, you should go to NYU. UChicago is underrepresented (even adjusting for class size) at most of the highest-PPP firms, sometimes dramatically so---see Cravath/PW.

If you're a high-end clerkship/professorship gunner, there are very strong arguments for Chicago. It's sort of discount-YLS: Smaller classes, some young star professors, conservative-friendly environment, good COA clerkship placement, a great academic fellowship that favors UChicago Law applicants.

I don't consider Chicago's USNWR ranking at all in considering it to be generally superior to NYU (or Columbia, for that matter) at an equal price point.

In my view, Chicago is superior because of its small class size, its outsize clerkship placement (which is important not only for clerkship "gunners", but also for folks with more modest BigLaw litigation ambitions), its prowess for academic positions, and its idiosyncratic grading scale. The difference isn't huge, and can be overcome, e.g., by a strong desire to attend law school in NYC, or a primary interest in transactional BigLaw (which would favor Columbia), or a primary interest in PI (which would generally favor NYU, except for impact lit, but NYU RTK would swing the balance back toward NYU even for impact lit).

Chicago's underrepresentation in NY BigLaw is due in part to Chicago's much smaller class size, and in part to a selection effect. As a result, Chicago students targeting NYC overperform at OCI relative to their similarly-qualified Columbia/NYU counterparts. NY BigLaw firms are swimming in Columbia/NYU/even Harvard candidates, but Chicago candidates are comparatively rarer, and thus particularly likely to get extra consideration (firms like to have a certain number of folks from all of the top schools).

tl;dr Chicago is better, but the difference is modest enough that it's entirely defensible to pick NYU, even at an equal COA.

[LBJ's Hair]

Chicago's underrepresentation in NY BigLaw is due in part to Chicago's much smaller class size, and in part to a selection effect. As a result, Chicago students targeting NYC overperform at OCI relative to their similarly-qualified Columbia/NYU counterparts. NY BigLaw firms are swimming in Columbia/NYU/even Harvard candidates, but Chicago candidates are comparatively rarer, and thus particularly likely to get extra consideration (firms like to have a certain number of folks from all of the top schools).

I've heard this claim before, and I guess it's possible it's true, but I'm not sure what evidence there is to support it. wouldn't some of these overperformers be at say, Cravath?

one could say the same thing about NYU students applying to CA6 or the Chicago office---"you'll be special and treated better"---but I think the Chicago person would respond that it's better to be the rule than the exception to it.

[QContinuum]

I've heard this claim before, and I guess it's possible it's true, but I'm not sure what evidence there is to support it. wouldn't some of these overperformers be at say, Cravath?

one could say the same thing about NYU students applying to CA6 or the Chicago office---"you'll be special and treated better"---but I think the Chicago person would respond that it's better to be the rule than the exception to it.

I think the idea is that the Chicago students at [insert grade-selective firm] have, on average, a lower GPA than their Columbia/NYU yearmates. Chicago students may still be underrepresented at that firm relative to their class size, but that underrepresentation is due to self-selection.

That's the story I've heard, anyway, from grads from all three of the CCN schools - both interviewees and interviewers. Specifically, I've heard of firms being particularly interested in hiring more Chicago students, due to a relative lack of Chicago applicants. But, I'll freely admit I haven't seen hard data proving a "Chicago advantage" in NYC BigLaw hiring.

Regardless, I think overall Chicago is indisputably stronger (NYU RTK aside). We can see that in its clerkship and academic placement. And I think stronger placement in BigLaw would be entirely consistent with that. But, as I stated above, the difference is small enough that it typically remains defensible/rational to choose NYU over Chicago at an equal price point.

Two concluding points. First, you posit that there ought to be a reciprocal effect with NYU and CA7 clerkships. (You wrote CA6, but I presume you meant CA7, as Chicago's in the 7th Circuit.) I don't think the above points about novelty and BigLaw hiring apply equally to clerkship hiring. Chicago has strong clerkship game nationally, but I've never heard any claim that Chicago has a particular advantage in CA2. If anything, I've heard that Columbia/NYU have a home court advantage for CA2 clerkships (though it doesn't help too much, because CA2 clerkships are some of the most competitive in the country after DC - not so much because CA2 is necessarily the "most prestigious" circuit, though it's certainly well-regarded, but largely because people want to clerk in NYC). So, conversely, there is also no Columbia/NYU advantage in CA7.

Second, as for Chicago BigLaw hiring, that market is surprisingly small and sought-after. It's not as grades-sensitive as CA or DC, but still, plenty of T13 students with Chicago ties target the limited number of slots there are. So I've never heard of any Chicago BL firm having difficulty getting as many students as it wants from any T13.

[LBJ's Hair]

I've heard this claim before, and I guess it's possible it's true, but I'm not sure what evidence there is to support it. wouldn't some of these overperformers be at say, Cravath?

one could say the same thing about NYU students applying to CA6 or the Chicago office---"you'll be special and treated better"---but I think the Chicago person would respond that it's better to be the rule than the exception to it.

I think the idea is that the Chicago students at [insert grade-selective firm] have, on average, a lower GPA than their Columbia/NYU yearmates. Chicago students may still be underrepresented at that firm relative to their class size, but that underrepresentation is due to self-selection.

That's the story I've heard, anyway, from grads from all three of the CCN schools - both interviewees and interviewers. Specifically, I've heard of firms being particularly interested in hiring more Chicago students, due to a relative lack of Chicago applicants. But, I'll freely admit I haven't seen hard data proving a "Chicago advantage" in NYC BigLaw hiring.

Regardless, I think overall Chicago is indisputably stronger (NYU RTK aside). We can see that in its clerkship and academic placement. And I think stronger placement in BigLaw would be entirely consistent with that. But, as I stated above, the difference is small enough that it typically remains defensible/rational to choose NYU over Chicago at an equal price point.

Two concluding points. First, you posit that there ought to be a reciprocal effect with NYU and CA7 clerkships. (You wrote CA6, but I presume you meant CA7, as Chicago's in the 7th Circuit.) I don't think the above points about novelty and BigLaw hiring apply equally to clerkship hiring. Chicago has strong clerkship game nationally, but I've never heard any claim that Chicago has a particular advantage in CA2. If anything, I've heard that Columbia/NYU have a home court advantage for CA2 clerkships (though it doesn't help too much, because CA2 clerkships are some of the most competitive in the country after DC - not so much because CA2 is necessarily the "most prestigious" circuit, though it's certainly well-regarded, but largely because people want to clerk in NYC). So, conversely, there is also no Columbia/NYU advantage in CA7.

Second, as for Chicago BigLaw hiring, that market is surprisingly small and sought-after. It's not as grades-sensitive as CA or DC, but still, plenty of T13 students with Chicago ties target the limited number of slots there are. So I've never heard of any Chicago BL firm having difficulty getting as many students as it wants from any T13.

Yeah, I agree there's a hometown premium, not a novelty premium, in clerkship hiring. (For Chicago, this applies to CA6, a midwestern circuit which hires many UChicago students, as well as CA7.)

My point was that it's not strange to think this might exist for NY BigLaw hiring as well. To me, the data hint at this. Hard to explain a 4x difference in placement at some of the more selective NY firms as solely the product of class size/idiosyncratic student preferences.

So I guess color me skeptical that Chicago's comparative advantages in academia, midwestern clerkship placement, and Chicago BigLaw, makes the school "indisputably better," or translates into an advantage in the NY market.

[QContinuum]

My point was that it's not strange to think this might exist for NY BigLaw hiring as well. To me, the data hint at this. Hard to explain a 4x difference in placement at some of the more selective NY firms as solely the product of class size/idiosyncratic student preferences.

So I guess color me skeptical that Chicago's comparative advantages in academia, midwestern clerkship placement, and Chicago BigLaw, makes the school "indisputably better," or translates into an advantage in the NY market.

So Columbia's known to be particularly strong for BigLaw, and that may be in part due to a hometown advantage (and in part to its corporate 'focus'). If someone aiming for NYC BigLaw - and not (also) a clerkship - was choosing between Columbia and Chicago, I'd recommend Columbia.

Funnily enough, even though all four name partners at WLRK are NYU Law grads, I've never heard tell of an NYU preference in WLRK's hiring.

[LBJ's Hair]

Funnily enough, even though all four name partners at WLRK are NYU Law grads, I've never heard tell of an NYU preference in WLRK's hiring.

Heh, accounting for school size, by my count YLS laps the field

[kidkasparov123]

All in all, Chicago's a stronger school than NYU (except NYU RTK for public interest). Chicago also has the advantage of an idiosyncratic numeric grading scale*, whereas NYU has the disadvantage of having B-s on the curve (unlike the rest of the T6, including Columbia). At equal cost, certainly attend Chicago.

What is the argument for that, other than UChicago's USNWR ranking? Possible, but not sure I follow.

After looking at this, my sense is if your goal is to work in BigLaw (particularly corporate) and don't have a Chicago geographic preference, you should go to NYU. UChicago is underrepresented (even adjusting for class size) at most of the highest-PPP firms, sometimes dramatically so---see Cravath/PW.

If you're a high-end clerkship/professorship gunner, there are very strong arguments for Chicago. It's sort of discount-YLS: Smaller classes, some young star professors, conservative-friendly environment, good COA clerkship placement, a great academic fellowship that favors UChicago Law applicants.

I don't consider Chicago's USNWR ranking at all in considering it to be generally superior to NYU (or Columbia, for that matter) at an equal price point.

In my view, Chicago is superior because of its small class size, its outsize clerkship placement (which is important not only for clerkship "gunners", but also for folks with more modest BigLaw litigation ambitions), its prowess for academic positions, and its idiosyncratic grading scale. The difference isn't huge, and can be overcome, e.g., by a strong desire to attend law school in NYC, or a primary interest in transactional BigLaw (which would favor Columbia), or a primary interest in PI (which would generally favor NYU, except for impact lit, but NYU RTK would swing the balance back toward NYU even for impact lit).

Chicago's underrepresentation in NY BigLaw is due in part to Chicago's much smaller class size, and in part to a selection effect. As a result, Chicago students targeting NYC overperform at OCI relative to their similarly-qualified Columbia/NYU counterparts. NY BigLaw firms are swimming in Columbia/NYU/even Harvard candidates, but Chicago candidates are comparatively rarer, and thus particularly likely to get extra consideration (firms like to have a certain number of folks from all of the top schools).

tl;dr Chicago is better, but the difference is modest enough that it's entirely defensible to pick NYU, even at an equal COA.

Hey, thanks for responding to my thread, Q. Why can we conclude that Chicago's placement is better? Chicago has higher placement in clerkships, but NYU has higher placement in public interest, and the PI jobs they get tend to be cream of the crop. With roughly equivalent biglaw placement, their outcomes seem to be equal, with differences a result of self selection. Your thoughts? Thanks.