St.Johns,Hofstra, Tauro Forum

[alexandralaird]

Hello,
I was accepted to St Johns which are 61,000$ with no scholarship
I was accepted to Hofstra with half-tuition scholarship eaning I would pay 30,000$
I got accepted to Tauro with a full-tuition scholarship.
St Johns has the highest bar pass rate with Hofstra following then Tauro. In the future, I'd like to work in a private firm possibly on LI or in the City. Does anyone have advice on what is the best option, including money/scholarship and likely income after graduation?

[rew98]

Hello,
I was accepted to St Johns which are 61,000$ with no scholarship
I was accepted to Hofstra with half-tuition scholarship eaning I would pay 30,000$
I got accepted to Tauro with a full-tuition scholarship.
St Johns has the highest bar pass rate with Hofstra following then Tauro. In the future, I'd like to work in a private firm possibly on LI or in the City. Does anyone have advice on what is the best option, including money/scholarship and likely income after graduation?

None of these are good options for the cost. Retake the LSAT and reapply to St. Johns so you can get significant scholarship. That's the only way it would be worth it.

[Johnnybgoode92]

Retake until you get Fordham. Nothing else is acceptable in NYC. This is the bare minimum.

[FND]

Retake until you get Fordham. Nothing else is acceptable in NYC. This is the bare minimum.

This is kinda wrong. But also kind of right.

Depending on personal situation and career goals, any of the other schools in NY could be acceptable with a VERY heavy scholarship. None of them are worth paying full price, or even half price, for. Keep in mind that if you don't have employment secured in advance, you'll definitely be struggling in the job hunt. Doing that with a quarter million dollars of student debt can give rise to suicidal tendencies.

Fordham is a good (not great) school, but barely acceptable at full price. But if you can't get in to Fordham at sticker, you won't be able to negotiate a good enough scholarship to justify going anywhere else in NY.

Hello,
I was accepted to St Johns which are 61,000$ with no scholarship
I was accepted to Hofstra with half-tuition scholarship eaning I would pay 30,000$
I got accepted to Tauro with a full-tuition scholarship.
St Johns has the highest bar pass rate with Hofstra following then Tauro. In the future, I'd like to work in a private firm possibly on LI or in the City. Does anyone have advice on what is the best option, including money/scholarship and likely income after graduation?

1) Touro and Hofstra are known for section-stacking, so check your stipulations - there's a good chance you'll lose your scholarship after a year.
2) Working for a private firm in the City is not impossible from those schools, but not a realistic goal either. Working at a small shop in LI or Queens is attainable from Hofstra and St. John, but difficult, and unlikely to pay enough to justify six figures of student loan debt.
3) Don't worry about bar passage rates. That's not a reflection of the professors, but of the student body.
4) Of the options you've provided, the only acceptable answer is to live with your parents, and attend Touro at full scholarship WITH NO STIPULATIONS. That way, you can accept whatever job you're able to scrounge up after you graduate, and maybe one day work your way up to a decent salary.

But you really should retake and work your way up. If you want a job in the city, Brooklyn or Cardozo are the bare minimum (with heavy scholarships), but you really should be shooting for Fordham.

[decimalsanddollars]

You need to do more research on these schools, because they have very different placement power in the City and elsewhere. I wouldn't recommend taking any of the deals in front of you right now (so I also suggest retaking the LSAT and reapplying in the next cycle), but I would also look into the different prospects of "work[ing] in a private firm possibly on LI or in the City," because that sweeps up a LOT of very different jobs that have very different requirements and hiring procedures. Without excellent grades from these schools, it may be difficult to land a job at all.

[LSATWiz.com]

Is the Touro scholarship guaranteed or do you need to place at the top of the class to keep it? Odds are you will not secure legal employment coming out of Touro, but if you'd have relatively no debt, there are worse choices to make. Hofstra and St. Johns are not strong enough in terms of placement power. These schools tend to get destroyed by other schools in NYC and throughout the US.

You may be able to secure a $60k job or the like on Long Island. There are not many firms on Long Island set up to support paying six-figure salaries out of schools. Although Long Island is itself affluent, the firms paying the big bucks are all in Manhattan. Long Island attorneys mostly deal with small town matters (trust and estate; matrimonial; DWI; insurance). These are fine areas of practice, but don't pay that much out of school. You generally have to have a book of business to bring in six-figures.

This is to say the jobs you will get coming out of these schools won't justify taking on six-figure debt.

[QContinuum]

Odds are you will not secure legal employment coming out of Touro, but if you'd have relatively no debt, there are worse choices to make.

The trouble is that almost 1 in 3 Touro law school grads - 32.6% - fail to secure any full-time, long-term legal (bar passage-required) jobs after graduation. See https://www.tourolaw.edu/pdf/Employment ... f_2018.pdf This is not "BigLaw", or six-figure jobs, or fancy public interest positions - this is any lawyering job at any salary, however low. Meanwhile, even attending "for free" or low cost in terms of tuition dollars actually comes with significant costs overall. First, there's foregone income for 3 years. Even assuming rock-bottom, minimum-wage pay - $15/hour (NYC), 40 hours/week, 50 hours/year - that's $90k in foregone income over 3 years, plus health insurance, vacation, sick leave and other benefits. So that's $100k+ right off the bat. Then there's the post-graduation cost of having a J.D. A J.D. is good for one thing, and one thing only - securing legal work (and, occasionally from the T13, for advocacy and policy work, but that's not really relevant to OP). For nonlegal jobs, or even legal support jobs (paralegals, legal secretaries), a J.D. is something of a "scarlet letter" to employers, who typically think either 1) a law school grad's a flight risk who'll leave as soon as they're able to secure legal employment - so why invest in/train them? - or 2) there must be something wrong with a law school grad seeking a nonlegal job - why wouldn't they want to/be able to secure legal employment? So not only is OP guaranteed to be out $100k+ in foregone income, they also run a 1 in 3 risk of actually impairing their future employability and salary prospects.

So, just want to caution that there are real costs to attending law school, even in addition to tuition/books/etc.

[LSATWiz.com]

Odds are you will not secure legal employment coming out of Touro, but if you'd have relatively no debt, there are worse choices to make.

The trouble is that almost 1 in 3 Touro law school grads - 32.6% - fail to secure any full-time, long-term legal (bar passage-required) jobs after graduation. See https://www.tourolaw.edu/pdf/Employment ... f_2018.pdf This is not "BigLaw", or six-figure jobs, or fancy public interest positions - this is any lawyering job at any salary, however low. Meanwhile, even attending "for free" or low cost in terms of tuition dollars actually comes with significant costs overall. First, there's foregone income for 3 years. Even assuming rock-bottom, minimum-wage pay - $15/hour (NYC), 40 hours/week, 50 hours/year - that's $90k in foregone income over 3 years, plus health insurance, vacation, sick leave and other benefits. So that's $100k+ right off the bat. Then there's the post-graduation cost of having a J.D. A J.D. is good for one thing, and one thing only - securing legal work (and, occasionally from the T13, for advocacy and policy work, but that's not really relevant to OP). For nonlegal jobs, or even legal support jobs (paralegals, legal secretaries), a J.D. is something of a "scarlet letter" to employers, who typically think either 1) a law school grad's a flight risk who'll leave as soon as they're able to secure legal employment - so why invest in/train them? - or 2) there must be something wrong with a law school grad seeking a nonlegal job - why wouldn't they want to/be able to secure legal employment? So not only is OP guaranteed to be out $100k+ in foregone income, they also run a 1 in 3 risk of actually impairing their future employability and salary prospects.

So, just want to caution that there are real costs to attending law school, even in addition to tuition/books/etc.

Yeah, it’s just the least bad in terms of those options.

[LawSch00lLurker]

I am a Hofstra graduate (within the last 3 years). I would re-take the LSAT and try and place in a higher ranked school. If you do not want to do that, I would remove Tauro from your list, your employment prospects are almost non-existent coming out of that school.

Between Hofstra and St. Johns, I would find out more information on what your Hofstra scholarship is contingent upon. As other posters have pointed out, keeping a scholarship could turn out to be challenging, and in the event you do lose your scholarship, you are stuck at Hofstra paying full price for the next two years. I would research / ask myself:

1. Is St. Johns that much better than Hofstra and is it worth the full sticker price and;
2. Can I realistically keep this half scholarship from Hofstra?

Also, your employment prospects are what you make of them. I graduated from Hofstra as did many of my classmates with great jobs that pay well (100K+) and require bar passage. It's really what you make of it.

Good luck with your decision.

[nixy]

Also, your employment prospects are what you make of them. I graduated from Hofstra as did many of my classmates with great jobs that pay well (100K+) and require bar passage. It's really what you make of it.

How many is many? Would your classmates who didn’t graduate with those jobs agree with you that they’re the problem? Are grades really all up to the student?

[QContinuum]

How many is many? Would your classmates who didn’t graduate with those jobs agree with you that they’re the problem? Are grades really all up to the student?

The trouble is, successful people in any field have a natural tendency to overestimate the importance of their own hard work/perseverance/etc. in achieving their success. They want to believe they deserve - earned - what they got.

Of course, being in the top ~10%, which is about what it takes to land a six-figure job straight out of Hofstra, actually does entail, usually, plenty of blood and sweat and tears and grit. But there's also a large amount of luck involved.

And, why is everyone calling Touro Tauro?

[nixy]

Yeah, I’m not disparaging LawSch00lLurker’s own hard work - just saying that hard work may be necessary but it may also not be sufficient.

[LawSch00lLurker]

How many is many? Would your classmates who didn’t graduate with those jobs agree with you that they’re the problem? Are grades really all up to the student?

The trouble is, successful people in any field have a natural tendency to overestimate the importance of their own hard work/perseverance/etc. in achieving their success. They want to believe they deserve - earned - what they got.

Of course, being in the top ~10%, which is about what it takes to land a six-figure job straight out of Hofstra, actually does entail, usually, plenty of blood and sweat and tears and grit. But there's also a large amount of luck involved.

And, why is everyone calling Touro Tauro?

I was no where near the top 10% of my graduating class. The sentiment on TLS is that if you graduate from anything that is not HYS your career is over before it begins. I do not think that is the case.

[nixy]

The sentiment on TLS is that if you graduate from anything that is not HYS your career is over before it begins. I do not think that is the case.

No, that's not the sentiment here. First, no one creates that stark a distinction between HYS and everything else (only HYS? really? people are saying that you're doomed if you go to Chicago or Penn or NYU?). Second, the sentiment is that some schools have better employment outcomes than others, employment statistics aren't only about gumption/persistence/personal dedication, and that applicants should generally attend schools that give them a good opportunity at getting a job they want at a price they can afford. No one is denying that plenty of people from Hofstra or similar schools are, in the end, successful. The point is just that depending on your definition of success (it's often "biglaw," but even sticking with "JD-required $100k+"), the odds are worse than at other schools, and you can't know ahead of time what number you're going to roll.

(Hofstra doesn't publish salary distributions. But based on their 2017 numbers, 12.2% were hired into firms of 100+ lawyers, 34.3% were in firms of <100 lawyers (about 21% in firms of 2-10 lawyers), 20.9% were in public service, and 9.2% were in business, which is defined as "everything from short-order cooks to in-house counsel, with document review jobs and managing the local U-Haul in between." The small firms and public service are statistically unlikely to pay $100k+ salaries, and business could mean anything. Now, many people may have ended up with jobs that they wanted/like. But the salaries suggested by the numbers have to be weighed against the fact that full cost at Hofstra is $335,291. I'm not trying to knock Hofstra specifically; there are lots of schools that offer similar opportunities. For some people it will turn out to be a great option. But I'll ask again: How many [people graduating with $100K+ JD required jobs] is many? Would your classmates who didn’t graduate with those jobs agree with you that they’re the problem? Are grades really all up to the student?)

[LSATWiz.com]

I think the fallacy that people make with these schools is they say if Top 10% makes X, then being in that percentile gives you a great chance of making X. The reality is that once you remove firms that are specifically looking at grades from the equation, you're left with a public that largely doesn't care so the 10% of Hofstra making X is likely disproportionately made up of those who came in with guaranteed jobs or something of the sort.

The it is what you make of it logic can apply to anything. Is working at Wendy's not what you make of it? If you're exceptionally suave and skilled, can you not turn that into an executive assistant position, and turn that into x, and x into y. Someone on craigslist turned a toothpick into a house over a 1,000 or so trades so you could technically advertise a toothpick at $5,000 and say "it is what you make of it".