For those considering Campbell...or any other unranked school for that matter Forum

[betterdeadthanred]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEjCzo65Lkc&t

The voice is monotone as hell, but the data is all there.

[LSATWiz.com]

I'm assuming you made the video based on your previous posts about Campbell and the specificity of the commonalities between the video and your prior posts. It is well argued. Don't worry about the monotone. You appear more rational than boring. I think any time you are riling against a person or institution, being impassioned tends to make one look more crazy than charismatic.

I wouldn't expect it to get too much attention because interest in the subject is limited to the legal profession, and even then, most lawyers outside of a small geographic area have no idea there is a law school called Campbell. Also, money is a boring topic. Even during the global recession, I doubt reports on hedge funds going red were getting the same ratings for news outlets as a baby panda being born.

[decimalsanddollars]

Great content, and I love the focus on the numbers---particularly the increase in cost and decline in input variables and graduate outcomes. Prospective students should do the research and take the numbers into account, including the factors you mentioned that distort the numbers (such as Campbell having many students with a connections-based job already lined up before matriculating).

I do think that one driver of law school cost inflation is that schools are allocating a bigger chunk of tuition revenue toward scholarships for more qualified applicants, which in theory could keep *average* cost to students level by charging some students more in order to charge others less. I doubt that's the case, and I don't think the hike-and-discount system actually reduces cost of attendance for many (or most) students, but I do think it's worth noting that some of that 25% increase goes toward paying overqualified applicants to go there. I'd also note that this trend is not at all limited to Campbell or even lower-ranked law schools; cost at T14 schools has also risen by 17-25% (Columbia now costs $75k per year just in tuition and fees, for example).

[betterdeadthanred]

I'm assuming you made the video based on your previous posts about Campbell and the specificity of the commonalities between the video and your prior posts. It is well argued. Don't worry about the monotone. You appear more rational than boring. I think any time you are riling against a person or institution, being impassioned tends to make one look more crazy than charismatic.

I wouldn't expect it to get too much attention because interest in the subject is limited to the legal profession, and even then, most lawyers outside of a small geographic area have no idea there is a law school called Campbell. Also, money is a boring topic. Even during the global recession, I doubt reports on hedge funds going red were getting the same ratings for news outlets as a baby panda being born.

Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I know the video is niche, but I just want people in the area (south east) to see this info more than anybody else. So many people get lost in the trap of these types of schools. My favorite is older people giving advise like "it doesn't matter where you went to law school "x" years later", or "all law schools give you the same JD" the statements on their face sound logical, but the numbers tell otherwise.

Thank you again.

[LSATWiz.com]

I'm assuming you made the video based on your previous posts about Campbell and the specificity of the commonalities between the video and your prior posts. It is well argued. Don't worry about the monotone. You appear more rational than boring. I think any time you are riling against a person or institution, being impassioned tends to make one look more crazy than charismatic.

I wouldn't expect it to get too much attention because interest in the subject is limited to the legal profession, and even then, most lawyers outside of a small geographic area have no idea there is a law school called Campbell. Also, money is a boring topic. Even during the global recession, I doubt reports on hedge funds going red were getting the same ratings for news outlets as a baby panda being born.

Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. I know the video is niche, but I just want people in the area (south east) to see this info more than anybody else. So many people get lost in the trap of these types of schools. My favorite is older people giving advise like "it doesn't matter where you went to law school "x" years later", or "all law schools give you the same JD" the statements on their face sound logical, but the numbers tell otherwise.

Thank you again.

Again, I think it’s impressive you can take something you are so passionate and heated about and communicate your thoughts in a calm, objective matter to the point of worrying you’re too monotonous. I certainly can’t do that about subjects I’m as passionate about unless they don’t affect me or others close to me. It’s a useful skill to have.

[LSATWiz.com]

Great content, and I love the focus on the numbers---particularly the increase in cost and decline in input variables and graduate outcomes. Prospective students should do the research and take the numbers into account, including the factors you mentioned that distort the numbers (such as Campbell having many students with a connections-based job already lined up before matriculating).

I do think that one driver of law school cost inflation is that schools are allocating a bigger chunk of tuition revenue toward scholarships for more qualified applicants, which in theory could keep *average* cost to students level by charging some students more in order to charge others less. I doubt that's the case, and I don't think the hike-and-discount system actually reduces cost of attendance for many (or most) students, but I do think it's worth noting that some of that 25% increase goes toward paying overqualified applicants to go there. I'd also note that this trend is not at all limited to Campbell or even lower-ranked law schools; cost at T14 schools has also risen by 17-25% (Columbia now costs $75k per year just in tuition and fees, for example).

I think he accounted for that when he discussed the median cost, which doesn’t dismiss your assertion as there is the chance the percentage that gets scholarships got larger scholarships, but it is the only data he had available. I do think that assumption is less likely than the assumption that they just pocketed the revenue to increase profits. I also think the move to a more central location probably cost some money. I don’t have any qualms with a law school dean earning $300k even at a crappy law school, but there are obviously a lot of costs that are unnecessary.

I agree with OP’s general premise that the free market should allow schools like this to exist, but should be counteracted by objective information. The reality is that legally, law schools are held to a far lower standard of ethics than a pawn shop or used car dealership and there is also the risk of subjecting oneself to accusations of slander if you state anything that may be untrue. While OP was limited to the facts the school disclosed and necessarily had to make assumptions, I don’t know if I agree with making the assumption that paints the school in the best light unless the school gives information indicating that’s the case. Another assumption is they know this is their peak and the charade could be over in 5 years when attrition rates fall or they lose accreditation so why not cash in now? I’m not saying one assumption is right, but that I wouldn’t just give schools like Campbell the benefit of the doubt.

[betterdeadthanred]

So I made a post related to Campbell's high acceptance rate (I just used information from the ABA's 509 data)

Here is a comment from the Rich Leonard...the Dean of the law school...

"Not sure why with approaching 4000 alumni, you are singular in trashing your alma mater with false data and bogus arguments. Why don’t you come see me so I can understand what went so awry for you?"

not sure why he thinks that the data...that school has to submit to the ABA is false/bogus...but hey...there will always be confusion if you yell in an echo chamber.

[betterdeadthanred]

everybody needs to get ready for a big law school boom....scam schools are salivating at all the unemployed college grads

[LSATWiz.com]

You're presenting facts in a straightforward, rational way. It's not like you're Ernie Menard.

[En03l]

Thoughts on Campbell’s newly posted 2019 employment data? It’s interesting to me that they seem to have released their 2019 employment data before most other schools, and that they have posted a significant boost in Bar passage required employment.

[betterdeadthanred]

Thoughts on Campbell’s newly posted 2019 employment data? It’s interesting to me that they seem to have released their 2019 employment data before most other schools, and that they have posted a significant boost in Bar passage required employment.

Source? I cant find, but yes it would be very odd that they would post data before the aba data is up online.

[betterdeadthanred]

Thoughts on Campbell’s newly posted 2019 employment data? It’s interesting to me that they seem to have released their 2019 employment data before most other schools, and that they have posted a significant boost in Bar passage required employment.

Found it...duh...on the school web site. I presume the increase is due to an overall increase in bar passage rate, and the fact that passing the multi-state opens up more options across state lines. The class size is also over 10% smaller from the previous year. Those to events take together would account for growth, but a jump of 25% is substantial.

The one thing that kind of has me suspicious is the drop in JD advantage positions from class of 2018-2019. That number dropped from a total of 22 to 8. Doc review tends to occupy that position, unless the definition of "bar passage required" somehow changed. The ABA has not posted the guidelines for the class of 2019 yet, but should once they post the numbers for all the schools.

The employment stat in firms is a pretty big area of change...class of 2018 only 4 grads were employed at firms with 51+ lawyers. That same number is 13. That is a pretty big bump in a valuable stat. Assuming that "bar passage required" does not include doc review work, this is evidence of some serious hustling by grads...and perhaps Campbell's career center.

As of this post...Covid-19 is probably really messing these numbers up. What they really are will probably remain a mystery.

Obviously I am bias, but it does seem odd that Campbell would have this data out first, and that such a large bump occurred

[LSATWiz.com]

Thoughts on Campbell’s newly posted 2019 employment data? It’s interesting to me that they seem to have released their 2019 employment data before most other schools, and that they have posted a significant boost in Bar passage required employment.

Found it...duh...on the school web site. I presume the increase is due to an overall increase in bar passage rate, and the fact that passing the multi-state opens up more options across state lines. The class size is also over 10% smaller from the previous year. Those to events take together would account for growth, but a jump of 25% is substantial.

The one thing that kind of has me suspicious is the drop in JD advantage positions from class of 2018-2019. That number dropped from a total of 22 to 8. Doc review tends to occupy that position, unless the definition of "bar passage required" somehow changed. The ABA has not posted the guidelines for the class of 2019 yet, but should once they post the numbers for all the schools.

The employment stat in firms is a pretty big area of change...class of 2018 only 4 grads were employed at firms with 51+ lawyers. That same number is 13. That is a pretty big bump in a valuable stat. Assuming that "bar passage required" does not include doc review work, this is evidence of some serious hustling by grads...and perhaps Campbell's career center.

As of this post...Covid-19 is probably really messing these numbers up. What they really are will probably remain a mystery.

Obviously I am bias, but it does seem odd that Campbell would have this data out first, and that such a large bump occurred

I don't wish it on their students or anyone, but their classes of 2020 and 2021 are going to be hit hard.

[betterdeadthanred]

I just checked. As of this post only one other school in NC has posted their employment stats and that is Duke. Obviously does not allow for much apples to apples comparing. I assume the ABA sent out results to the school first. It would also explain why you cant click the questionnaire link inside the PDF that is provided.

Still a ~25% jump in the golden stat is pretty amazing.

[En03l]

Yes, that increase is substantial for a school that has struggled to break 60% in the previous 4 years. I’d be interested to see what the other NC schools and regional schools post. And as you pointed out, if there were any changes in criteria. Do you suspect any foul play in the numbers or think it’s legit? I did read an article from years back about an audit that found some schools were not compliant in their reporting to the ABA.

[En03l]

I found the 2020 protocols for class of 2019. https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam ... f-2019.pdf

[nixy]

I would imagine that a lot of schools aren't that focused on updating their employment stats right now. In any case, Campbell's class is small enough, that's not a huge difference in raw numbers. I wouldn't consider Campbell a safe bet until those numbers go up more and stay there consistently.

[cavalier1138]

It's hard to figure out exactly what caused the jump, but the raw job numbers between 2018 and 2019 seem roughly identical. The biggest shift is in the number of students going to "Business & Industry," which likely encompasses the "J.D. Advantage" positions. Basically, if they dropped 10-20 students from the class while also having 10-20 more students pass the bar, that seems to account for the shift. It makes the percentage shift look quite dramatic without a substantial increase in performance.

Also, it's worth noting that Campbell's 1L enrollment numbers for this last class show them taking a little over 50 more students than graduated in 2019. Even accounting for a 5% 1L attrition rate, there's no way they keep these numbers up. 2019 is likely to be an anomaly.

[En03l]

Cavalier those are all good possibility explanations. Maybe they could have stood a chance before this COVID virus, but I’m sure it’s likely to stunt their performance in the next couple of years. So we will probably never know what contributed to these latest employment numbers.

[betterdeadthanred]

Cavalier those are all good possibility explanations. Maybe they could have stood a chance before this COVID virus, but I’m sure it’s likely to stunt their performance in the next couple of years. So we will probably never know what contributed to these latest employment numbers.

Well the language has not changed but it is worth noting that the defintion of Bar Passage required would likly include doc review work.

"The graduate is employed in a position that in fact requires or, from the perspective of the employer does or will require, the graduate to pass a bar exam or be authorized to practice law in one or more jurisdictions;"

"From the perspective of the employer" is a big deal because a lot of doc review "firms" will require that you be licensed in any jurisdiction. You are not practicing law, but based on the standard from the ABA you now get included in that metric.