Schools better for a career in M&A Forum

[coldbrewisthebest]

Hi all,

I just joined TLS forum. My goal for attending law school is that I want to work on cross-border M&As.
Assuming that there is no scholarship, and I won't be able to score 175+. Should I focus on schools on the east coast, e.g. NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown... instead of UC Berkeley/UCLA? (My general observation is that east coast programs are more international. Please correct me if I'm wrong!)
I will take LSAT for the first time in Oct.

Thanks!

[notinbiglaw]

Take lsat. Go to highest ranked school you get into. If ranks are close small preference for east coast but NY recruits from everywhere

[Mullens]

Hi all,

I just joined TLS forum. My goal for attending law school is that I want to work on cross-border M&As.
Assuming that there is no scholarship, and I won't be able to score 175+. Should I focus on schools on the east coast, e.g. NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown... instead of UC Berkeley/UCLA? (My general observation is that east coast programs are more international. Please correct me if I'm wrong!)
I will take LSAT for the first time in Oct.

Thanks!

Cross-border M&A sounds sexy but it’s one of the worst types of M&A. You have to take phone calls at ungodly hours (like 4am) and wrangle/babysit foreign counsel who only work 9-5 local time.

[nealric]

Hi all,

I just joined TLS forum. My goal for attending law school is that I want to work on cross-border M&As.
Assuming that there is no scholarship, and I won't be able to score 175+. Should I focus on schools on the east coast, e.g. NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown... instead of UC Berkeley/UCLA? (My general observation is that east coast programs are more international. Please correct me if I'm wrong!)
I will take LSAT for the first time in Oct.

Thanks!

Cross-border M&A sounds sexy but it’s one of the worst types of M&A. You have to take phone calls at ungodly hours (like 4am) and wrangle/babysit foreign counsel who only work 9-5 local time.

Europe isn't bad if you are a morning person, but working with Asia is awful. There are no overlapping business hours.

To the OP: come back when you have an LSAT score. M&A means biglaw, which means you will want to go to a highly ranked school. Preference rank over location, though if you are in the running for any T14, school, you are in the running for the East Coast ones that tend to feed NYC where the biggest M&A deals are done.

[coldbrewisthebest]

Hi all,

I just joined TLS forum. My goal for attending law school is that I want to work on cross-border M&As.
Assuming that there is no scholarship, and I won't be able to score 175+. Should I focus on schools on the east coast, e.g. NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown... instead of UC Berkeley/UCLA? (My general observation is that east coast programs are more international. Please correct me if I'm wrong!)
I will take LSAT for the first time in Oct.

Thanks!

Cross-border M&A sounds sexy but it’s one of the worst types of M&A. You have to take phone calls at ungodly hours (like 4am) and wrangle/babysit foreign counsel who only work 9-5 local time.

Europe isn't bad if you are a morning person, but working with Asia is awful. There are no overlapping business hours.

To the OP: come back when you have an LSAT score. M&A means biglaw, which means you will want to go to a highly ranked school. Preference rank over location, though if you are in the running for any T14, school, you are in the running for the East Coast ones that tend to feed NYC where the biggest M&A deals are done.

Thanks, really I think that if I don't score 170+, there would be a very tiny chance for T14, then it probably makes sense that I shouldn't really go to lower-ranked law school...

[coldbrewisthebest]

Hi all,

I just joined TLS forum. My goal for attending law school is that I want to work on cross-border M&As.
Assuming that there is no scholarship, and I won't be able to score 175+. Should I focus on schools on the east coast, e.g. NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown... instead of UC Berkeley/UCLA? (My general observation is that east coast programs are more international. Please correct me if I'm wrong!)
I will take LSAT for the first time in Oct.

Thanks!

Cross-border M&A sounds sexy but it’s one of the worst types of M&A. You have to take phone calls at ungodly hours (like 4am) and wrangle/babysit foreign counsel who only work 9-5 local time.

Thank you for pointing that out... Did you have this experience yourself or hear about it very often? I don't expect this would happen on a daily basis? should I talk to people who work in this field

[cavalier1138]

Thank you for pointing that out... Did you have this experience yourself or hear about it very often? I don't expect this would happen on a daily basis? should I talk to people who work in this field

You should absolutely talk to people who work in the field you're interested in. How else will you even start to get an idea of whether you want to work in that area?

But from what I know of cross-border M&A, yes, your daily routine often consists of trying to work with lawyers in totally different time zones who know that American lawyers are expected to be available at ridiculous hours.

[coldbrewisthebest]

Take lsat. Go to highest ranked school you get into. If ranks are close small preference for east coast but NY recruits from everywhere

Thanks for your insight! Appreciate it.

[derekne]

Hi all,

I just joined TLS forum. My goal for attending law school is that I want to work on cross-border M&As.
Assuming that there is no scholarship, and I won't be able to score 175+. Should I focus on schools on the east coast, e.g. NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown... instead of UC Berkeley/UCLA? (My general observation is that east coast programs are more international. Please correct me if I'm wrong!)
I will take LSAT for the first time in Oct.

Thanks!

Echoing what others said about taking the lsat and then starting to evaluate options. But for anyone else in this position,(which could include OP after talking the test), Harvard, Columbia, and NYU should be top of the pile. There are roughly six-seven firms that do the vast majority of the big, complicated public M&A deals. Outside of WLRK, they all offer between 40-60 people in a normal year at Columbia. Same goes for Harvard. NYU is slightly behind CLS in this regard, though not by much. Chicago is an interesting case as it has the same placement power as CN but very few people want
NYC from Chicago. So even adjusted for class size, the top firms don’t make as many offers at Chicago and the percentage of the class that accepts a NY offer is also far lower.

[64Fl]

Echoing what others said about taking the lsat and then starting to evaluate options. But for anyone else in this position,(which could include OP after talking the test), Harvard, Columbia, and NYU should be top of the pile. There are roughly six-seven firms that do the vast majority of the big, complicated public M&A deals. Outside of WLRK, they all offer between 40-60 people in a normal year at Columbia. Same goes for Harvard. NYU is slightly behind CLS in this regard, though not by much. Chicago is an interesting case as it has the same placement power as CN but very few people want
NYC from Chicago. So even adjusted for class size, the top firms don’t make as many offers at Chicago and the percentage of the class that accepts a NY offer is also far lower.

This is a weird approach. The T14 should just be the general focus, not any specific schools within the T14. Your overall % chance of getting placed in biglaw is going to correlate well with your overall % chance of landing at a great M&A shop.

[derekne]

Echoing what others said about taking the lsat and then starting to evaluate options. But for anyone else in this position,(which could include OP after talking the test), Harvard, Columbia, and NYU should be top of the pile. There are roughly six-seven firms that do the vast majority of the big, complicated public M&A deals. Outside of WLRK, they all offer between 40-60 people in a normal year at Columbia. Same goes for Harvard. NYU is slightly behind CLS in this regard, though not by much. Chicago is an interesting case as it has the same placement power as CN but very few people want
NYC from Chicago. So even adjusted for class size, the top firms don’t make as many offers at Chicago and the percentage of the class that accepts a NY offer is also far lower.

This is a weird approach. The T14 should just be the general focus, not any specific schools within the T14. Your overall % chance of getting placed in biglaw is going to correlate well with your overall % chance of landing at a great M&A shop.

Not sure I understand the approach. Obviously the T14 is a benchmark you have to hit in order to have a real shot at solid corporate firms in NYC, but I think the contention that overall chance of Big Law correlates well with one’s chance to do M&A law at a top firm is wrong. Sure, if you go to a t-14 you can probably manage to do M&A law somewhere. But when it comes to the places that have band 1 M&A practices, the T6 seem to have a statistically significant advantage over the lower T-14. Take, for example, Cravath’s 2018 summer associate class. Georgetown and Cornell each had ~ 5 summers and Penn had 8. Columbia and Harvard each had 27. NYU had like 16. The numbers were similarly outsized at every other top shop, which tells me that one’s odds of getting Cravath, DPW S&C etc. are a hell of a lot better coming out of CLS than, say, Cornell or GTown.

[64Fl]

This is a weird approach. The T14 should just be the general focus, not any specific schools within the T14. Your overall % chance of getting placed in biglaw is going to correlate well with your overall % chance of landing at a great M&A shop.

Not sure I understand the approach. Obviously the T14 is a benchmark you have to hit in order to have a real shot at solid corporate firms in NYC, but I think the contention that overall chance of Big Law correlates well with one’s chance to do M&A law at a top firm is wrong. Sure, if you go to a t-14 you can probably manage to do M&A law somewhere. But when it comes to the places that have band 1 M&A practices, the T6 seem to have a statistically significant advantage over the lower T-14. Take, for example, Cravath’s 2018 summer associate class. Georgetown and Cornell each had ~ 5 summers and Penn had 8. Columbia and Harvard each had 27. NYU had like 16. The numbers were similarly outsized at every other top shop, which tells me that one’s odds of getting Cravath, DPW S&C etc. are a hell of a lot better coming out of CLS than, say, Cornell or GTown.

Obviously, HYS > CCN > rest of the T13 (didn't mean to use the old categorization that included GULC). I was more complaining about your separating out of Harvard, NYU, and Columbia. Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students could no doubt get the exact same opportunities if they hadn't self-selected out of them. Yale students like to Chase unicorns; Stanford students want to stay in SV/CA; and Chicago students rather take top-of-the-market Chicago. Like many, I turned down Cravath/other elite M&A firms from one of the schools you did not list, because NYC is not the desired market for the vast majority of graduates at my school, myself included. Also, band 1 chambers is way too restrictive; it's unnecessarily elitist. If you're in the chambers M&A: elite, that's elite M&A in my books. Once your deals are in the billions, deal sheets really start to look the same, imo.

[derekne]

This is a weird approach. The T14 should just be the general focus, not any specific schools within the T14. Your overall % chance of getting placed in biglaw is going to correlate well with your overall % chance of landing at a great M&A shop.

Not sure I understand the approach. Obviously the T14 is a benchmark you have to hit in order to have a real shot at solid corporate firms in NYC, but I think the contention that overall chance of Big Law correlates well with one’s chance to do M&A law at a top firm is wrong. Sure, if you go to a t-14 you can probably manage to do M&A law somewhere. But when it comes to the places that have band 1 M&A practices, the T6 seem to have a statistically significant advantage over the lower T-14. Take, for example, Cravath’s 2018 summer associate class. Georgetown and Cornell each had ~ 5 summers and Penn had 8. Columbia and Harvard each had 27. NYU had like 16. The numbers were similarly outsized at every other top shop, which tells me that one’s odds of getting Cravath, DPW S&C etc. are a hell of a lot better coming out of CLS than, say, Cornell or GTown.

Obviously, HYS > CCN > rest of the T13 (didn't mean to use the old categorization that included GULC). I was more complaining about your separating out of Harvard, NYU, and Columbia. Yale, Stanford, and Chicago students could no doubt get the exact same opportunities if they hadn't self-selected out of them. Yale students like to Chase unicorns; Stanford students want to stay in SV/CA; and Chicago students rather take top-of-the-market Chicago. Like many, I turned down Cravath/other elite M&A firms from one of the schools you did not list, because NYC is not the desired market for the vast majority of graduates at my school, myself included. Also, band 1 chambers is way too restrictive; it's unnecessarily elitist. If you're in the chambers M&A: elite, that's elite M&A in my books. Once your deals are in the billions, deal sheets really start to look the same, imo.

Ah I misunderstood. Agree with most everything you said. My unstated point with the three schools I cited is that one will be able to find a large group of people who share an interest in practicing M&A law in NYC. Connections matter obviously, and it doesn’t sound very appealing to go to Chicago or Stanford when there’s a high probability that none of your friends from LS are interested in the same things you are/won’t be practicing in NYC. The only qualifier I’ll add is that the top band firms tend to consistently see the most complex top bucket deals, which is exposure you really can’t get anywhere else. But if you’re not about NYC, aren’t a cultural fit with the “top” firms, and/or don’t feel like killing yourself during your BigLaw stint, totally justifiable to take a lower ranked firm that’s a better fit.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I think the best would be Y/S because you could get V10 offers in NYC without any pressure to perform well in classes. Whereas at H/CCN they'd likely want to see grades above median, which is easier said than done.

[nerd1]

I think the best would be Y/S because you could get V10 offers in NYC without any pressure to perform well in classes. Whereas at H/CCN they'd likely want to see grades above median, which is easier said than done.

I remember from my OCI days some years ago that some HLS classmates below median got NYC V10. As long as you are not a foreigner, you can still do well in OCI at HLS with below median grades. While I do admit things are probably easier at Y or S (especially at Y, I know someone that struck out at S), grades are not nearly as important as they are in H compared to CCN.

[QContinuum]

I remember from my OCI days some years ago that some HLS classmates below median got NYC V10. ... grades are not nearly as important as they are in H compared to CCN.

IMO, the above is a dangerous way of thinking. First, while unusual, there are definitely below-median CCNers who land NYC V10 offers every year. Not every V10 is equally grade-selective, and even the more grade-selective ones make exceptions. Second, grades are definitely important at H. While it's true H confers an advantage over CCN, H's advantage is principally in academia and clerking (and nonlegal/law-adjacent careers where H's lay prestige helps), not so much NYC BigLaw. Of course a slightly below-median H student is still in the catbird seat as far as landing NYC BigLaw goes (same with slightly below-median CCN students), but they should absolutely not be focusing their bidlist on grade-selective firms.

[nerd1]

I remember from my OCI days some years ago that some HLS classmates below median got NYC V10. ... grades are not nearly as important as they are in H compared to CCN.

IMO, the above is a dangerous way of thinking. First, while unusual, there are definitely below-median CCNers who land NYC V10 offers every year. Not every V10 is equally grade-selective, and even the more grade-selective ones make exceptions. Second, grades are definitely important at H. While it's true H confers an advantage over CCN, H's advantage is principally in academia and clerking (and nonlegal/law-adjacent careers where H's lay prestige helps), not so much NYC BigLaw. Of course a slightly below-median H student is still in the catbird seat as far as landing NYC BigLaw goes (same with slightly below-median CCN students), but they should absolutely not be focusing their bidlist on grade-selective firms.

Very confused how my post was "dangerous." I am a 3rd year associate in a top M&A practice group in NYC.

As to your first point, I never claimed that CCN medians can't get V10 (I assume NYC V10, because only the regional Vault rankings are relevant). I have many friends from CCN working at the very best firms in NYC.

As to your second point, I never claimed that grades are not important at H. I went to H and know how important they are, but at the same time, because I know so many people from CCN as well, I can confirm that H is much less important at H compared to Columbia or NYU. In my class year, I know two people among my H classmates that struck out, but I know many more people that struck out at Columbia or NYU. I would say though as far as NYC is concerned, H doesn't perhaps confer any meaningful advantage over Chicago. Perhaps a small advantage? I don't know. I haven't heard of anybody striking out from Chicago, but then my sample is limited.

Your point about H's prestige is confusing too. There is definitely an advantage for H in biglaw (the question is how much, not whether it exists). Prestige only matters when one is trying to get biglaw. Biglaw firms are willing to dig deeper (again, the question is how much) at H compared to Columbia or NYU. So there is an advantage. Assuming two candidates are equal otherwise including in terms of interview skills, the candidate from H would do better in OCI that the candidate from NYU. If you dispute this fact, you are just bitter.

I would try to read a post twice before describing someone's post as offering a "dangerous way of thinking."

[The Lsat Airbender]

I agree it's a question of degree, but to be fair to Q you said "not nearly as important" upthread. You can't quite dick around at Harvard and then expect a firm job at one of the elite M&A shops with bottom-third grades. Like, it's perfectly possible, and I think that's where a lot of the margin between H/S and CCN is, but you'd have to compensate for the grades somehow (with, e.g., a strong resume).

[nerd1]

I agree it's a question of degree, but to be fair to Q you said "not nearly as important" upthread. You can't quite dick around at Harvard and then expect a firm job at one of the elite M&A shops with bottom-third grades. Like, it's perfectly possible, and I think that's where a lot of the margin between H/S and CCN is, but you'd have to compensate for the grades somehow (with, e.g., a strong resume).

In my OCI year, I was surprised by the number of people at Columbia and NYU that struck out or nearly struck out. But then that may have been just particular to my year. On the whole, the differences among schools like NYU, UVA and Penn are quite small. Pretty much interchangeable. Except for some elite firms that seem to care about law school pedigree more (S&C, Cravath, STB, DPW, etc), on the whole, where you went to school matters a lot less than what students tend to believe. Grades don't matter as much as what students tend to believe too. At least in the field of M&A.

[QContinuum]

I agree it's a question of degree, but to be fair to Q you said "not nearly as important" upthread. You can't quite dick around at Harvard and then expect a firm job at one of the elite M&A shops with bottom-third grades. Like, it's perfectly possible, and I think that's where a lot of the margin between H/S and CCN is, but you'd have to compensate for the grades somehow (with, e.g., a strong resume).

In my OCI year, I was surprised by the number of people at Columbia and NYU that struck out or nearly struck out. But then that may have been just particular to my year. On the whole, the differences among schools like NYU, UVA and Penn are quite small. Pretty much interchangeable. Except for some elite firms that seem to care about law school pedigree more (S&C, Cravath, STB, DPW, etc), on the whole, where you went to school matters a lot less than what students tend to believe. Grades don't matter as much as what students tend to believe too. At least in the field of M&A.

If you're, say, bottom 10% at CCN, you're in for a rough ride. Same is true at Harvard. If you're a completely awful interviewee you're in for a rough ride regardless of your grades and regardless of whether you're coming from CCN or Harvard (or, heck, even Y/S). Of course, the vast majority are not in the bottom 10% and are at least passably decent interviewees.

It is inaccurate to suggest that, as a general rule, there are "surprising" numbers of folks at CCN who strike out. Obviously there are folks who strike out at CCN - just as there are folks who strike out at Harvard, I can say based on firsthand knowledge. But no school in the country places a greater percentage of the class into BigLaw than Columbia, and NYU's placement power is generally accepted to be only a tiny hair below Columbia.

No one is saying that Harvard doesn't have an edge over CCN. Of course it does. But to suggest the Harvard-vs.-CCN edge is humongous is flat-out wrong and, yes, dangerous. Dangerous because it might induce Harvard 1Ls to take their foot off the gas pedal, and even more dangerous because it might induce 0Ls to take on unwise amounts of debt to attend Harvard over CCN.

[nerd1]

I agree it's a question of degree, but to be fair to Q you said "not nearly as important" upthread. You can't quite dick around at Harvard and then expect a firm job at one of the elite M&A shops with bottom-third grades. Like, it's perfectly possible, and I think that's where a lot of the margin between H/S and CCN is, but you'd have to compensate for the grades somehow (with, e.g., a strong resume).

In my OCI year, I was surprised by the number of people at Columbia and NYU that struck out or nearly struck out. But then that may have been just particular to my year. On the whole, the differences among schools like NYU, UVA and Penn are quite small. Pretty much interchangeable. Except for some elite firms that seem to care about law school pedigree more (S&C, Cravath, STB, DPW, etc), on the whole, where you went to school matters a lot less than what students tend to believe. Grades don't matter as much as what students tend to believe too. At least in the field of M&A.

If you're, say, bottom 10% at CCN, you're in for a rough ride. Same is true at Harvard. If you're a completely awful interviewee you're in for a rough ride regardless of your grades and regardless of whether you're coming from CCN or Harvard (or, heck, even Y/S). Of course, the vast majority are not in the bottom 10% and are at least passably decent interviewees.

It is inaccurate to suggest that, as a general rule, there are "surprising" numbers of folks at CCN who strike out. Obviously there are folks who strike out at CCN - just as there are folks who strike out at Harvard, I can say based on firsthand knowledge. But no school in the country places a greater percentage of the class into BigLaw than Columbia, and NYU's placement power is generally accepted to be only a tiny hair below Columbia.

No one is saying that Harvard doesn't have an edge over CCN. Of course it does. But to suggest the Harvard-vs.-CCN edge is humongous is flat-out wrong and, yes, dangerous. Dangerous because it might induce Harvard 1Ls to take their foot off the gas pedal, and even more dangerous because it might induce 0Ls to take on unwise amounts of debt to attend Harvard over CCN.

Again, you are twisting my arguments. I never said that "there are "surprising" numbers of folks at CCN who strike out" as a general matter. I said that's what happened in my year and I made it clear that may have been particular to my year. And the "surprising" aspect was subjective - surprising relative to what I expected (I thought the difference would be very small). And the sample was limited too. I was never intending to say as a general matter there's a much greater number of strike-outs at NYU or Columbia versus at H.

I never said there's a "humongous" gap between the top three schools and CCN. I have a lot of respect for Columbia and NYU just as I do for other schools. I said the importance of grades is much less at H compared to CCN, at least compared to Columbia and NYU. This is partly due to the grading system as well - ABC versus HP. Tbh it's my first time ever seeing someone dispute the fact that grades matter less at H compared to CCN.

The whole idea that a law student that goes to a top law school would think "Okay, I am at HLS. I can get shitty grades and have good chances at all law firms." is just flat out wrong. No sane law student thinks that way. You think a Yale law student wouldn't study hard just because their first semester is completely devoid of grades? No fucking way. Every student at any top law school studies hard regardless of the extent to which grades matter at their particular school. No student would base their behavior largely on one TLS post either. All I said was grades matter much less (I myself am not sure about the extent tbh) at H compared to CCN.

And no fucking way. I wouldn't advise anybody to take H, Y or S over a Rubenstein scholarship from Chicago. I would generally say full-ride at NYU or Columbia over H, Y or S too. Get over your inferiority complex if you have one, please.

[QContinuum]

I never said that "there are "surprising" numbers of folks at CCN who strike out" as a general matter. I said that's what happened in my year and I made it clear that may have been particular to my year. And the "surprising" aspect was subjective - surprising relative to what I expected (I thought the difference would be very small). And the sample was limited too. I was never intending to say as a general matter there's a much greater number of strike-outs at NYU or Columbia versus at H.

I never said there's a "humongous" gap between the top three schools and CCN. I have a lot of respect for Columbia and NYU just as I do for other schools. I said the importance of grades is much less at H compared to CCN, at least compared to Columbia and NYU. This is partly due to the grading system as well - ABC versus HP. Tbh it's my first time ever seeing someone dispute the fact that grades matter less at H compared to CCN.

Thanks for the clarification. For my part I also want to reemphasize that yes, Harvard has an edge over CCN, which means that, yes, all else equal, a median HLS student will have an edge over a median CCN student. A small edge, but it's there.

The whole idea that a law student that goes to a top law school would think "Okay, I am at HLS. I can get shitty grades and have good chances at all law firms." is just flat out wrong. No sane law student thinks that way. You think a Yale law student wouldn't study hard just because their first semester is completely devoid of grades? No fucking way.

Oh, I know people who think that way. Including at HLS. Including at YLS. Which is why I want to be extra careful not to give any fuel to that kind of thinking.

And no fucking way. I wouldn't advise anybody to take H, Y or S over a Rubenstein scholarship from Chicago. I would generally say full-ride at NYU or Columbia over H, Y or S too.

Thanks for this, this is exactly what I was trying to drive at. We agree, so I'm not sure what your beef is.

Get over your inferiority complex if you have one, please.

Lay off the personal attacks, please. (Consider this a polite, unofficial warning.)

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Based on direct reports from HLS students who just did EIP, it was not a joke there. Great candidates pulled multiple NY V10 offers, but many average students struggled. Competition is high. Some non-diverse KJD dude at HLS, who might be a bit awkward and inexperienced, may not realize what he's up against: people with boosts like better grades, law review, prestigious undergrads, great work experience, interesting life experience, maturity, and polished interviewing skills.

Maybe HLS prestige carried plenty of median folks to NY V10s in past years. Didn't seem to be the case this year -- consensus is that offers were harder to come by -- but I agree it's a safer bet than NYU/CLS. Not sure if HLS > Chicago [much smaller school, and most of the class is gunning for Chicago jobs] for NY firms. Regardless, none of these 4 schools consistently placed median students into firms with elite M&A practices last month.