Help! Need to decide tomorrow! GULC vs. HLS Forum

[septmcc]

Hi guys!

So, tomorrow I have to let GULC know if I am accepting their scholarship offer and make a "good faith" commitment to the school. Im getting 40k/year or 120K for all three years.

If not, my other option is HLS - which, seems like a stretch away from GULC, but the financial situation is not great. My parents are not contributing, but make way over the limit for me to receive aid. I have no savings, and I have no family or family friends who would be able to help out. So, we are looking at full COA debt-financed which literally keeps me up at night every night.

My goals after grad - short term: BigLaw, clerkship. long-term: academia.

I'm also considering applying for deferral so I can potentially save some money and re-evaluate my situation.

Does anyone have any advice? I am literally sick over this decision and do not know what to do. Any advice would be appreciated. I don't want to turn down HLS, but don't want to ruin my life.

[QContinuum]

Do you have any other offers at other T14s?

[LaChusa2020]

A long time ago deciding between T14 schools, I had the same fears. Looking back I laugh at the idea of having that kind of choice and worrying about "ruining my life". If you find practicing law to be "ruining your life" you might wish you had picked GULC so you could get out sooner, but you'll have substantial regrets either way. If you don't end up seeing it that way then either GULC or HLS can be a great place to start your legal career but I think HLS would be worth the extra cost. Even if you want to get out of practicing law and do something else, I think HLS is probably worth toughing out an additional year or two of biglaw to pay the debt because the name will help you wherever you go. I'd take HLS in your situation without hesitation but if you take GULC that's a perfectly solid decision. Just don't approach this out of fear, you've done great and should be excited.

[cavalier1138]

Yeah, what are your numbers and other offers? You have to have something from another school between Georgetown and Harvard.

[AdieuCali]

There’s always debate whether a Darden/Darrow or decent scholly at CCN beats H. Normally I’m in the debt averse crowd. But here I think you can safely walk away from GULC’s offer. Given your goals of clerkship and potential academia, it’s not even close. H is definitely worth $135k (scholly + COL difference) more than GULC for those types of options. Especially if the bear market is lurking over the next few years.
https://www.lstreports.com/compare/harvard/gulc/

IMO, $$$$ @ MVPD = $$ @ CCN > H (sticker) >>>>>>>> GULC $$$

The real question is your other T14 offers. Have you used your H admit to negotiate larger offers from T6-T10?

[lawgirl3521]

Just a thought - you likely should be considered an independent student at this stage in the game per federal aid guidelines - have you looked closely at the requirements for what qualifies as an independent student? My reason for mentioning this is that if you are classified as independent, your income would be the basis for receipt of aid, not your parents' income - maybe that would help?

[dc_diva]

I made this exact same decision. I had strong personal reasons for staying in DC (my husband is in the military and stationed here), so I chose GULC. It’s worked out great — I’m at the top-ish of my class and had amazing firm offers to choose from and being financially stable/graduating debt-free has been invaluable for my husband and I so I don’t regret it for a second. That said, you shouldn’t go into law school assuming you’ll get great grades — assume you’ll be median. If that were the case, and your goal is academia, and you don’t have a reason for GULC besides the money then you should go HLS no question about it.

[LSlyfe]

Just a thought - you likely should be considered an independent student at this stage in the game per federal aid guidelines - have you looked closely at the requirements for what qualifies as an independent student? My reason for mentioning this is that if you are classified as independent, your income would be the basis for receipt of aid, not your parents' income - maybe that would help?

Just FYI - Law school financial aid determinations of dependency are different those of the federal aid guidlines. Generally regardless of actual financial independence, unless OP is married or in their 30s they’re going to be considered a dependent by law schools. The exact age cutoff varies by institution.

[lawgirl3521]

Just a thought - you likely should be considered an independent student at this stage in the game per federal aid guidelines - have you looked closely at the requirements for what qualifies as an independent student? My reason for mentioning this is that if you are classified as independent, your income would be the basis for receipt of aid, not your parents' income - maybe that would help?

Just FYI - Law school financial aid determinations of dependency are different those of the federal aid guidlines. Generally regardless of actual financial independence, unless OP is married or in their 30s they’re going to be considered a dependent by law schools. The exact age cutoff varies by institution.

Oh wow, didn't realize that - I was married when I started law school so that was never an issue for me.

[QContinuum]

Just a thought - you likely should be considered an independent student at this stage in the game per federal aid guidelines - have you looked closely at the requirements for what qualifies as an independent student? My reason for mentioning this is that if you are classified as independent, your income would be the basis for receipt of aid, not your parents' income - maybe that would help?

Just FYI - Law school financial aid determinations of dependency are different those of the federal aid guidlines. Generally regardless of actual financial independence, unless OP is married or in their 30s they’re going to be considered a dependent by law schools. The exact age cutoff varies by institution.

LSlyfe is correct. Relevant here, Harvard considers parental assets for anyone younger than 29 (regardless of whether the parents will actually be contributing anything). (Harvard's "assumed" parental contribution is reduced for matriculants between 26-28.) https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/basics ... resources/

[septmcc]

Hi everyone,

Wow so nice to see these responses, I didn't think anyone would answer. Im def a reverse splitter, so my cycle was bizarre. only other school was Northwestern U @ 90,000. I really really really don't want to go to Chicago, so thats off the table.

[septmcc]

I made this exact same decision. I had strong personal reasons for staying in DC (my husband is in the military and stationed here), so I chose GULC. It’s worked out great — I’m at the top-ish of my class and had amazing firm offers to choose from and being financially stable/graduating debt-free has been invaluable for my husband and I so I don’t regret it for a second. That said, you shouldn’t go into law school assuming you’ll get great grades — assume you’ll be median. If that were the case, and your goal is academia, and you don’t have a reason for GULC besides the money then you should go HLS no question about it.

Yeah, no personal ties anywhere, as by SO is in NYC and can relocate to wherever I am eventually. Glad to hear though, that you are absolutely thriving.

[QContinuum]

Hi everyone,

Wow so nice to see these responses, I didn't think anyone would answer. Im def a reverse splitter, so my cycle was bizarre. only other school was Northwestern U @ 90,000. I really really really don't want to go to Chicago, so thats off the table.

NW with $90k is a terrific offer, and objectively worth it over Georgetown with $120k. Georgetown is a great school, but places much more in line with the traditional T20 than the rest of the T13. (Its BigLaw numbers are weaker than Vandy's.) If you're only getting $30k more at Georgetown compared to NW, I don't think it's worth taking the risk of attending Georgetown. You absolutely cannot predict, ex ante, that you'll land at the top of your class like dc_diva did.

I'd also say NW's worth it over HLS at sticker. HLS is worth more than NW, but not $90k more for general BigLaw goals.

I really think you ought to just suck it up and go to NW. It's a great school and a great outcome. And law school is so all-encompassing (if you want to do well) that you'll be mostly cooped up and stressed out no matter which city you're in. If you're dead set against going to NW, then I would strongly recommend delaying a cycle, retaking the LSAT, and reapplying. The fact that you got into HLS and NW with $90k with your current LSAT strongly suggests that you'd get into CCN with $ (and the "lower T13" with $$) with just a few more points.

[septmcc]

Hi everyone,

Wow so nice to see these responses, I didn't think anyone would answer. Im def a reverse splitter, so my cycle was bizarre. only other school was Northwestern U @ 90,000. I really really really don't want to go to Chicago, so thats off the table.

NW with $90k is a terrific offer, and objectively worth it over Georgetown with $120k. Georgetown is a great school, but places much more in line with the traditional T20 than the rest of the T13. (Its BigLaw numbers are weaker than Vandy's.) If you're only getting $30k more at Georgetown compared to NW, I don't think it's worth taking the risk of attending Georgetown. You absolutely cannot predict, ex ante, that you'll land at the top of your class like dc_diva did.

I'd also say NW's worth it over HLS at sticker. HLS is worth more than NW, but not $90k more for general BigLaw goals.

I really think you ought to just suck it up and go to NW. It's a great school and a great outcome. And law school is so all-encompassing (if you want to do well) that you'll be mostly cooped up and stressed out no matter which city you're in. If you're dead set against going to NW, then I would strongly recommend delaying a cycle, retaking the LSAT, and reapplying. The fact that you got into HLS and NW with $90k with your current LSAT strongly suggests that you'd get into CCN with $ (and the "lower T13" with $$) with just a few more points.

Thanks for the advice!!! So, i took the GRE, not the LSAT, and I'm really not interested in risking another cycle, especially having gotten into Harvard, which won't change cost-wise with a retake. Currently haven't heard back yet from CLS or NYU, which I would strongly consider going to. My goals are definitely not BigLaw oriented beyond the immediate goal of cutting down my loans. I want to teach eventually.

[QContinuum]

NW with $90k is a terrific offer, and objectively worth it over Georgetown with $120k. Georgetown is a great school, but places much more in line with the traditional T20 than the rest of the T13. (Its BigLaw numbers are weaker than Vandy's.) If you're only getting $30k more at Georgetown compared to NW, I don't think it's worth taking the risk of attending Georgetown. You absolutely cannot predict, ex ante, that you'll land at the top of your class like dc_diva did.

I'd also say NW's worth it over HLS at sticker. HLS is worth more than NW, but not $90k more for general BigLaw goals.

I really think you ought to just suck it up and go to NW. It's a great school and a great outcome. And law school is so all-encompassing (if you want to do well) that you'll be mostly cooped up and stressed out no matter which city you're in. If you're dead set against going to NW, then I would strongly recommend delaying a cycle, retaking the LSAT, and reapplying. The fact that you got into HLS and NW with $90k with your current LSAT strongly suggests that you'd get into CCN with $ (and the "lower T13" with $$) with just a few more points.

Thanks for the advice!!! So, i took the GRE, not the LSAT, and I'm really not interested in risking another cycle, especially having gotten into Harvard, which won't change cost-wise with a retake. Currently haven't heard back yet from CLS or NYU, which I would strongly consider going to. My goals are definitely not BigLaw oriented beyond the immediate goal of cutting down my loans. I want to teach eventually.

The goal of retaking and reapplying wouldn't be to matriculate to Harvard one year later, but to attend Columbia/NYU with $ or another T13 with $$. If you're willing to go to NW with $90k, then I don't think there's a compelling need to retake and reapply, but if you're completely unwilling to go to NW, then I think it makes a lot of sense to try for Columbia/NYU with $ or a non-Chicago/NW T13 with $$.

You previously said your goals were:

My goals after grad - short term: BigLaw, clerkship. long-term: academia.

So that's why I focused on Georgetown's BigLaw placement. Regardless, my advice doesn't change substantially for academia. To the extent that would modify my advice, I would urge you to be even more cautious about Georgetown. Academic hiring is very prestige-obsessed, and I think there's a serious risk you'd handicap yourself by going to a school outside the T13.

If your only goal re: entering BigLaw is to pay down debt, I think it makes all the sense in the world to minimize said debt by saving $90k and attending NW.

Think about it this way: You hate Chicago and would much prefer to live in Boston. But would you be willing to spend a little over 2 years* living in Chicago instead of Boston if you were paid $150k to do so? Because that's the amount you're going to have to make in gross income to pay off $90k in loans and interest after tax.

*Law school's not really 3 years. You have two summers off, plus spring break and winter holidays, and you start in August/September but graduate in May. You need not spend either of your summers (or any of your holidays) in Chicago.

[cavalier1138]

What, exactly, is the aversion to Chicago?

I understand not being a fan of the winters, but is that all we're talking about? Because $90,000 really helps warm you up in January.

[jsnow212]

It's already questionable for those with a safety-net to use it to pay for something that doesn't have a great cost/benefit ratio (even though it has an excellent benefit in a vacuum). With little/no family support, I can't see full-price for HLS being worth it compared to retake/reapply or NU.

If you insist on not retaking/reapplying, NU has the best cost/benefit ratio of the choices provided. You have an the unlikely goal of Academia that HLS does not provide a materially higher chance of obtaining compared to other T13 schools. On an absolute basis and a per capita basis, HLS does produce many academics, but the difference between .25% and 1% of a given graduating class cannot be a basis for making a decision here. I don't know if the lost 90K + interest + lower COA of NU versus HLS is worth what amounts to an outcome (academia) approaching 0 if viewed through an expected value basis.

As for Gtown, it should be out of the running here for reasons mentioned by previous posters.
Please let us know what you end up deciding, in any case!

[QContinuum]

What, exactly, is the aversion to Chicago?

I understand not being a fan of the winters, but is that all we're talking about? Because $90,000 really helps warm you up in January.

And Cambridge isn't that warm in the winter either... we're not talking southern CA or TX here, or even NC.

I understand OP's SO is in NYC, but neither Boston nor D.C. are that close either (nor are Amtrak fares all that cheap). OP can fly from Chicago to NYC every holiday & every long weekend and still come out way ahead.

[nixy]

Re: academia being prestige obsessed - that’s true, but I don’t think that correlates directly with the job numbers that have led to everyone saying T13 and dropping Georgetown out of that group. I don’t think there’s any evidence at all that, for academic hiring purposes, Georgetown is any different from Cornell or NU or Duke or Berkeley. I can totally see the argument that for academic hiring GT is different from HLS, but I think people are parsing things too finely beyond that.

[QContinuum]

Re: academia being prestige obsessed - that’s true, but I don’t think that correlates directly with the job numbers that have led to everyone saying T13 and dropping Georgetown out of that group. I don’t think there’s any evidence at all that, for academic hiring purposes, Georgetown is any different from Cornell or NU or Duke or Berkeley. I can totally see the argument that for academic hiring GT is different from HLS, but I think people are parsing things too finely beyond that.

I don't think Cornell is particularly strong for academia. I think NU is a step above, though. And remember, OP isn't going straight to academia. Their immediate goal is BigLaw. Indisputable that NU places much better than Gtown in BigLaw.

[nixy]

Yes, I agree NU is more likely to get the OP into biglaw. My comment was only directed to the very narrow point that because academia is prestige-focused Georgetown would be riskier. No one hiring in academia is going to have a prestige problem with Georgetown if the OP develops the qualifications actually to be a good candidate. (The same is also true of Cornell. I’m sure you’re right that Cornell places fewer people in academia, but no one is going to have an issue with it if someone has the academic chops.) Academic hiring is more more about stellar academic performance, strong publications, and prof recommendations/connections than it is about school name, especially once above a certain tier of school. It’s true that not everyone at the T14 is going to have the same opportunity to develop those qualifications, but that’s not the same as saying that Georgetown isn’t prestigious enough for academia.

[VirginiaFan]

I very rarely endorse HLS as the correct choice. But assuming you don't get more money from another school, and won't sit out a year, HLS is the best option here. A 90k differential is a sizable chunk of change, but the guarantee of biglaw is worth more than that. If this was a T13 for free v. HLS, I think the former would definitely be the right choice. But given that your alternatives aren't great, you should splurge and go to HLS.

[QContinuum]

I very rarely endorse HLS as the correct choice. But assuming you don't get more money from another school, and won't sit out a year, HLS is the best option here. A 90k differential is a sizable chunk of change, but the guarantee of biglaw is worth more than that. If this was a T13 for free v. HLS, I think the former would definitely be the right choice. But given that your alternatives aren't great, you should splurge and go to HLS.

I disagree. NU has a BigLaw placement rate of 69%. HLS, 75%. (Georgetown, a hair under 59%.) I don't think 75% vs. 69% is worth $90k*. It's worth >$0, sure, and I'd endorse HLS if it was even, say, $40k more expensive than NU. But $90k is a bit too far for me.

(*And if you think a 6% difference is worth $90k, then presumably you also think folks should choose Columbia over Harvard. After all, Columbia's BigLaw placement rate is 83%, 8% higher than HLS'.)

Yes, I agree NU is more likely to get the OP into biglaw. My comment was only directed to the very narrow point that because academia is prestige-focused Georgetown would be riskier. No one hiring in academia is going to have a prestige problem with Georgetown if the OP develops the qualifications actually to be a good candidate. (The same is also true of Cornell. I’m sure you’re right that Cornell places fewer people in academia, but no one is going to have an issue with it if someone has the academic chops.) Academic hiring is more more about stellar academic performance, strong publications, and prof recommendations/connections than it is about school name, especially once above a certain tier of school. It’s true that not everyone at the T14 is going to have the same opportunity to develop those qualifications, but that’s not the same as saying that Georgetown isn’t prestigious enough for academia.

Georgetown is riskier because part of the prestige academia looks at is firm reputation and clerkship. Georgetown is weaker on both counts.

I agree that research ability is key, as evidenced by publication record and research agenda, and I think I've made that point several times in the past day or two in multiple posts. But I don't think it's wise to discount school prestige entirely.

[VirginiaFan]

I very rarely endorse HLS as the correct choice. But assuming you don't get more money from another school, and won't sit out a year, HLS is the best option here. A 90k differential is a sizable chunk of change, but the guarantee of biglaw is worth more than that. If this was a T13 for free v. HLS, I think the former would definitely be the right choice. But given that your alternatives aren't great, you should splurge and go to HLS.

I disagree. NU has a BigLaw placement rate of 69%. HLS, 75%. (Georgetown, a hair under 59%.) I don't think 75% vs. 69% is worth $90k*. It's worth >$0, sure, and I'd endorse HLS if it was even, say, $40k more expensive than NU. But $90k is a bit too far for me.

(*And if you think a 6% difference is worth $90k, then presumably you also think folks should choose Columbia over Harvard. After all, Columbia's BigLaw placement rate is 83%, 8% higher than HLS'.)

Yes, I agree NU is more likely to get the OP into biglaw. My comment was only directed to the very narrow point that because academia is prestige-focused Georgetown would be riskier. No one hiring in academia is going to have a prestige problem with Georgetown if the OP develops the qualifications actually to be a good candidate. (The same is also true of Cornell. I’m sure you’re right that Cornell places fewer people in academia, but no one is going to have an issue with it if someone has the academic chops.) Academic hiring is more more about stellar academic performance, strong publications, and prof recommendations/connections than it is about school name, especially once above a certain tier of school. It’s true that not everyone at the T14 is going to have the same opportunity to develop those qualifications, but that’s not the same as saying that Georgetown isn’t prestigious enough for academia.

Georgetown is riskier because part of the prestige academia looks at is firm reputation and clerkship. Georgetown is weaker on both counts.

I agree that research ability is key, as evidenced by publication record and research agenda, and I think I've made that point several times in the past day or two in multiple posts. But I don't think it's wise to discount school prestige entirely.

I mean, sure, that's a good point. I guess my 2 reservations would be this:
1) NU's employment numbers get inflated a bit due to their students having work experience. So, if OP is a KJD, I'd be a little worried.
2) I do think that Harvard has some intangible benefits, as well as its biglaw placement being watered down by some self-selection. I chose a T14 for free over H/S, and that was a hard choice-- at 90k, I would've gone with H/S.


I think NU or Harvard are very defensible choices here-- less so Georgetown.

[cavalier1138]

I do think that Harvard has some intangible benefits, as well as its biglaw placement being watered down by some self-selection. I chose a T14 for free over H/S, and that was a hard choice-- at 90k, I would've gone with H/S.

Well, rest easy knowing that you made the right choice. Harvard is not a magical school. It is not worth tens of thousands of dollars more than most T13 schools. You're going to do just as well with your degree as you would have from Harvard, and you're not going to have debt.

I'm still eager to hear from the OP on the Northwestern questions.