Harvard vs. Columbia vs NYU vs Duke (vs UChicago?) Forum

[thankunext]

curious about y'all's thoughts on where to go. I don't know exactly what I want to do in law yet -- something at the intersection of tech and law?? IP?? I'd like to keep my options open in case I fall in love with something else during school (is this totally naive?)

my options, roughly in order of my interest:
-harvard, assume 0 finaid
-columbia with 65k
-NYU with 78k
-duke with 120k
-Uchicago with 30k

I have around 100k saved for law school, + my family is willing to help with around another 100k. no undergrad debt. preferred location post-grad (or at least long-term) is norcal. I'm heading to harvard/NYU ASW and visiting columbia as well in the next couple weeks, and I know "fit" will be a factor as well -- but I'm curious what all of you would choose. I know there are a million threads on CCN vs harvard, but I'm resurfacing without that CCN full-ride part.

thanks!

[cavalier1138]

I think Harvard shouldn't be in the running at all, because you'd essentially be throwing away $65-120k on nothing.

The tougher call here is Duke vs. Columbia/NYU. If you're thinking of a big firm (which seems to be your best bet if you're not sure where your interests lie beyond something tech-related), Duke is probably your best choice. But if you're focusing on California, employment stats indicate that Columbia/NYU are going to be better at placing you there. If you don't already have ties to SF/SV, that would tip the scales in favor of Columbia/NYU.

As to "fit": you're going to fit in equally well at any law school. This isn't like undergrad; you'll find your friend group and your mentors wherever you end up. But don't get suckered in by things like campus appearance or activities. Aside from pretty minor differences in how far left/right the student body trends and institutional support for certain career tracks, T13 law schools are basically interchangeable. Focus on debt and job outcomes.

[Sls17]

Do you have CA ties? Also curious if you applied / what your status is at Berkeley?

[thankunext]

my family is in california, so that’s why I want to be there long term.

I did get into berkeley but I’m looking to get off the west coast for law school.

[Samark45]

I think Harvard shouldn't be in the running at all, because you'd essentially be throwing away $65-120k on nothing.

The tougher call here is Duke vs. Columbia/NYU. If you're thinking of a big firm (which seems to be your best bet if you're not sure where your interests lie beyond something tech-related), Duke is probably your best choice. But if you're focusing on California, employment stats indicate that Columbia/NYU are going to be better at placing you there. If you don't already have ties to SF/SV, that would tip the scales in favor of Columbia/NYU.

As to "fit": you're going to fit in equally well at any law school. This isn't like undergrad; you'll find your friend group and your mentors wherever you end up. But don't get suckered in by things like campus appearance or activities. Aside from pretty minor differences in how far left/right the student body trends and institutional support for certain career tracks, T13 law schools are basically interchangeable. Focus on debt and job outcomes.

The bolded comment is a now-common TLS over-correction mentality, bent on trying to dissuade people from obsessing with "prestige." While that mentality is well-motivated, it can definitely be overplayed, as it is here. You don't yet know what you're interested in when it comes to legal careers. You might think you want to go into Big Law now, but then discover a burning interest in environmental law as a 2L; you might be set on PI work as a 1L but have something come up in your life halfway through law school. You might decide you want to be a legal academic, or go into government, or international work.

Going to law school is partly about maximizing your option set for a full lifetime of work afterwards. Harvard can do that in ways even Columbia (and definitely Duke) can't. Just to name a few, it's much easier to get an A3 clerkship as a median from HLS than CLS; that clerkship might be instrumentally important to your end-goals. Some firms will go deeper into HLS's class roster based on grades or professor connections; think tanks, gov entities, (and especially) int'l orgs will be drawn to the "Harvard" brand more so than the other schools on your list. All of that matters when what your goal right now should be is keeping options open and having maximum flexibility to choose work many years from now.

When is $65k-120k "nothing"? When it's compared to the rest of your life. Don't get sucked into the lazy, short-sighted, anti-prestige over-correction on TLS.

[BansheeScream]

The first piece of advice I would give you is to negotiate. Your awards at lower ranked schools don't seem high enough for someone with a Harvard acceptance. Anecdotal but the majority of people I know with Mordecais/Darrows turned down Harvard offers. If you haven't, you need to negotiate these awards as much as possible.

I personally think that Columbia is worth $55k more than Duke. It's certainly worth $13k more than NYU and UChicago should be off the table unless they come up significantly. It might be worth noting that your living expenses at Duke will be significantly cheaper than if you went to NYU and Columbia. Also, if you like the fit better at Columbia/NYU/Duke I don't think it would be insane to make your decision off of that because the difference between your COA at the schools are small. Although I likely wouldn't take NYU over Columbia due to the very small difference in COA and the fact that your life would likely be relatively similar living in NYC (with the small caveat that NYU is in a better area).

Harvard is really just going to be a personal decision here. You close some doors by turning down Harvard but they're doors that not all attorneys have interest in. $350k is a lot of money to spend on school and even though you have $200k in personal and family contributions, there are so many things you could spend that money on like a down payment for a house. I'm not sure that a Harvard degree will give you that big of an advantage in "something tech related".

edit: also look at total COA instead of the scholarship that each school gave you. Columbia's tuition is $5k more expensive than NYU and Dukes and that adds up over 3 years and with tuition increases. Columbia could end up being way way way more expensive than Duke with tuition differences and living expenses over three years factored in.

[jsnow212]

I have around 100k saved for law school, + my family is willing to help with around another 100k. no undergrad debt. preferred location post-grad (or at least long-term) is norcal. I'm heading to harvard/NYU ASW and visiting columbia as well in the next couple weeks, and I know "fit" will be a factor as well -- but I'm curious what all of you would choose. I know there are a million threads on CCN vs harvard, but I'm resurfacing without that CCN full-ride part.

thanks!

Bolded doesn't alter the value equation here. Just because you have 200k now and don't need that much in loans to pay back later does not change the fact it's still 200k out of you and your family's pocket. As such, I think it's still important to consider cost.

From a money perspective Duke w/120k off + lower COL is a pretty strong value here, given your options. As another commentor said, it wouldn't be wholly unjustified to split the difference and attend CLS for its generally stronger placement power on the west coast. Although, given your existing ties to the west coast market, the marginal benefit of CLS may end up being small.

The bolded comment is a now-common TLS over-correction mentality, bent on trying to dissuade people from obsessing with "prestige." While that mentality is well-motivated, it can definitely be overplayed, as it is here. You don't yet know what you're interested in when it comes to legal careers. You might think you want to go into Big Law now, but then discover a burning interest in environmental law as a 2L; you might be set on PI work as a 1L but have something come up in your life halfway through law school. You might decide you want to be a legal academic, or go into government, or international work.

Each of these scenarios represents exactly why someone would want to minimize debt. It's ridiculous to go into 300k debt thinking you want biglaw and then be stuck with LIPP when you realize PI/government is your true interest. Worse yet, it would suck even more to have to commit 3-5 years of your life to BL unhappily, in your 20s, just to pay back debt and build decent savings so you can pursue said burning interest.

Going to law school is partly about maximizing your option set for a full lifetime of work afterwards. Harvard can do that in ways even Columbia (and definitely Duke) can't.

This is simply not true.

Just to name a few, it's much easier to get an A3 clerkship as a median from HLS than CLS; that clerkship might be instrumentally important to your end-goals. Some firms will go deeper into HLS's class roster based on grades or professor connections; think tanks, gov entities, (and especially) int'l orgs will be drawn to the "Harvard" brand more so than the other schools on your list.

Here is the problem with this summary, both in terms of basic facts and logic for paying for HLS.
1) A3 clerkships from median are outliers (perhaps non-existent) at HLS. We aren't talking about YLS here. There is no evidence of a "median" at HLS getting A3 clerkships outside of unsubstantiated anecdotal data. FWIW, HLS's perceived median is a large swath of the class. Actually calculated out, there are students one may consider median at HLS that are just shy of the top 35%.

2) Who cares whether a generic firm offering the same generic salary would go "deeper" into the HLS class? By a simple analysis of EIP numbers, CLS places almost exactly as well has HLS at V10 firms adjusted for class size. Even when you move to the ultra-elite firms like W&C or WLRK, HLS has 1-5 more people (out of 550 in their class) going to those firms.

All of that matters when what your goal right now should be is keeping options open and having maximum flexibility to choose work many years from now.

HLS is not a golden ticket by any stretch of the imagination. You don't just get to "choose" your work at any point in your career. HLS students graduating in the bottom 1/3 are slumming it at "crappy" firms just like students at any other T10. HLS kids that want to clerk in a desirable district or with desirable judges are competing for grades just as hard as your lowly CLS/NYU/Duke grad.

No major company, org, etc. is going to prefer an experienced HLS grad to an experienced CLS/NYU/Duke grad solely on the basis of their school.

2 weeks into 1L at HLS, when you realize that everyone is actually working to get great grades because they can't write their own ticket. Just like at any other T14, you have to be near the top of your class to get a golden ticket. It's better not to come to this harsh conclusion with an albatross of debt around your neck.

When is $65k-120k "nothing"? When it's compared to the rest of your life. Don't get sucked into the lazy, short-sighted, anti-prestige over-correction on TLS.

Short-sighted is not realizing that 65k-120k in additional debt with interest and fees will take at least another 1.5-2 years to pay off on an aggressive schedule. Working hard for a minimum of 8 years (3 year school + 5 years BL), living like a peasant, only to break-even going to HLS near-sticker seems a harsh price to pay for "added flexibility and career options" that will never actually manifest.

[cavalier1138]

Ok, ignoring the guy who's clearly an alt account for... Samarcan? Was that his name? Anyway, the guy who went around preaching the value of a Harvard degree based on his own insecurity. Don't listen to him.

But for the OP:

I did get into berkeley but I’m looking to get off the west coast for law school.

Why?

You probably can get back to California from these schools. But if Berkeley would actually cost less, then it's really short-sighted to give up the best non-Stanford option for norcal biglaw because you want to try out a new city for three years (especially because law school doesn't really give you a lot of chances to enjoy the surrounding locale).

[Samark45]

Ok, ignoring the guy who's clearly an alt account for... Samarcan? Was that his name? Anyway, the guy who went around preaching the value of a Harvard degree based on his own insecurity. Don't listen to him.

But for the OP:

I did get into berkeley but I’m looking to get off the west coast for law school.

Why?

You probably can get back to California from these schools. But if Berkeley would actually cost less, then it's really short-sighted to give up the best non-Stanford option for norcal biglaw because you want to try out a new city for three years (especially because law school doesn't really give you a lot of chances to enjoy the surrounding locale).

The post by Jsnow212 raises some good points, and I didn't mean to say that going to HLS gives you a "golden ticket." So I accept that correction if my post seemed to suggest otherwise.

As for this Cavalier person...I had a similar username when I sometimes used this board, literally years ago, before new management. After not logging in for a while I forgot the exact name/log-in so I made a new one. He still remembers that old username, which suggests (along with his post history and frequency) how pathetic (obsessive?) he is. Also, kind of ironic to mention insecurities when your self-worth is bound up in portraying yourself as some almighty authority on an anonymous online message board. The OP is smart enough to read the posts and assess them on their merits, taking each for what it's worth based on substance. I've got nothing to say to other posters who aren't mature enough to engage critically but need constant gratification online. Go out for a walk, get some fresh air, maybe try those dating apps. There's someone out there for you. Best of luck.

[UVA2B]

And I was just about to reassess my life and get a Harvard LLM to get that immeasurable prestige bump. I bet I could get it for somewhere around $65-120k, which would also obviously be a bargain.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Berkeley is probably the best option here, especially if OP got any kind of aid. Duke is probably next-best since it sounds like you have decent ties to Northern California.

OP, if you want to “get off the West Coast” for a bit, just keep those tens of thousands of dollars you didn’t spend on Harvard in the bank and take lots of vacations during 3L.

[The Lsat Airbender]

To put some hard numbers on that, here's my napkin math for CoA:

Duke: $210k (probably no debt after a SA job! nice!)
Berkeley: $285k
NYU: $285k
Columbia: $295k
Chicago: $335k
Harvard: $365k (doubt OP gets need-based aid between their savings and their parents' apparent assets)

Duke is the best value, and Berkeley is at least as good as everything more expensive (especially if OP gets merit aid there, which their HCCN offers imply they might). NYU/Columbia wouldn't be shoot-yourself-in-the-foot stupid but Harvard/Chicago definitely are here.

[LaChusa2020]

There are no bad choices here but I'd take HLS. The difference between HYS and everywhere else matters enough that if you have the kind of help OP does (not paying anywhere sticker due to savings and help from family) then go to HLS. If you desperately hate biglaw you could repay your loans in 3 years. I absolutely agree with what was said above re overcorrection -- people on TLS care way too much what has "lay prestige" (i.e., will my high school girlfriend's mom think I'm a big deal because I went to Penn v. Michigan), but HLS has a value add that's worth it in the legal and business world and its worth paying for. That money over the course of a legal career is unlikely to be as significant as the value of that degree.

[LaChusa2020]

Berkeley is probably the best option here, especially if OP got any kind of aid. Duke is probably next-best since it sounds like you have decent ties to Northern California.

OP, if you want to “get off the West Coast” for a bit, just keep those tens of thousands of dollars you didn’t spend on Harvard in the bank and take lots of vacations during 3L.

I think "getting off the west coast" for 3 years is totally understandable. OP Is not in a situation where getting back should be a huge concern and wanting to spend 3 years of your life somewhere new is totally valid. That said Berkeley is genuinely probably as good as HLS and better than Columbia or NYU for norcal biglaw. It makes a lot of sense here, but so would HLS.

[cavalier1138]

I think "getting off the west coast" for 3 years is totally understandable. OP Is not in a situation where getting back should be a huge concern and wanting to spend 3 years of your life somewhere new is totally valid. That said Berkeley is genuinely probably as good as HLS and better than Columbia or NYU for norcal biglaw. It makes a lot of sense here, but so would HLS.

How does HLS make sense at sticker?

Ignoring the fact that it's a very expensive and not-at-all-fun vacation, why would HLS be a better choice than any of the current options at their current prices?

[LaChusa2020]

I think "getting off the west coast" for 3 years is totally understandable. OP Is not in a situation where getting back should be a huge concern and wanting to spend 3 years of your life somewhere new is totally valid. That said Berkeley is genuinely probably as good as HLS and better than Columbia or NYU for norcal biglaw. It makes a lot of sense here, but so would HLS.

How does HLS make sense at sticker?

Ignoring the fact that it's a very expensive and not-at-all-fun vacation, why would HLS be a better choice than any of the current options at their current prices?

Having been out for several years and practiced I think the HYS degrees are worth a premium, second is T14 in the market where you want to practice, third is any T14.

I wouldn't tell OP to pick HLS at sticker if they had no savings and no help and really large scholarships from other schools. But given OP's situation I think HLS could absolutely be worth it over the course of their legal career. But it depends what they end up wanting to do. For NorCal biglaw the clear options here to me are HLS or Berkeley and OP sounds like they want to attend law school outside CA. Plenty of Columbia, Chicago etc. grads in the market but unsurprisingly HLS and YLS place better in SF and SV than anywhere but Stanford and Berkeley.

[LBJ's Hair]

There are no bad choices here but I'd take HLS. The difference between HYS and everywhere else matters enough that if you have the kind of help OP does (not paying anywhere sticker due to savings and help from family) then go to HLS. If you desperately hate biglaw you could repay your loans in 3 years. I absolutely agree with what was said above re overcorrection -- people on TLS care way too much what has "lay prestige" (i.e., will my high school girlfriend's mom think I'm a big deal because I went to Penn v. Michigan), but HLS has a value add that's worth it in the legal and business world and its worth paying for. That money over the course of a legal career is unlikely to be as significant as the value of that degree.

There is no "HYS." The only people who think that's a thing are people at Harvard lol. If OP were in at Yale he should absolutely pay sticker, because grades don't matter and the median YLS student can clerk for a non-2/9/DC COA. He's not. He's in at HLS, which is completely different.

The median student at HLS has identical outcomes to CCN students: Going to a V20 BigLaw firm and, unless they are on law review, not doing an Article III clerkship. The very top end of HLS has better placement in ultra-competitive (and particularly conservative) clerkships, like the DC Circuit generally, Sutton, whatever etc -- don't mean to discount that. But that's relevant for ~maybe~ 5% of the class. If, like most of Harvard's class, you're just going to work at a BigLaw firm, there is no incremental value to having "Harvard" on your resume vs "Columbia" or "NYU." The recruiting process is identical. There are gonna be like ~20 associates from Harvard at Cravath, 20 from Columbia, and so forth. Just look at the numbers over the years from the TLS threads.

If OP finishes 1L in the top 10% of his class at a CCN and suddenly these top-end clerkships become relevant, he can transfer to HLS *easily*, or (harder, but the smarter play) to YLS. But why would you spend an extra $100K making a bet, as a 0L, that you're gonna be one of the 10 people that Cass Sunstein is willing to make a call to Katzmann for or w/e.

If OP is completely cost-insensitive, sure go to HLS. In a vacuum, I'd rather have that on my resume. But if you care about $$, it's not worth over $100K, especially when you can take the financial aid and transfer in a year when you have a better sense how competitive you are for unicorn outcomes.

I'll add one last thing - if I were in OP's shoes, choosing between HLS at sticker and CCN with $$, as a 0L I would have chosen HLS because of the name. So like I understand the appeal. But it's not like, the rational thing to do. The stuff that separates HLS from CCN comes from the SCOTUS and DC Circuit placement -- stuff that almost certainly will be irrelevant to OP, and if it is, s/he can always take advantage of by transferring.

[QContinuum]

There are no bad choices here but I'd take HLS. The difference between HYS and everywhere else matters enough that if you have the kind of help OP does (not paying anywhere sticker due to savings and help from family) then go to HLS.

If OP's family has "f*** you" wealth, then I agree they should attend the best school possible, i.e., HLS. But barring that kind of "so much money we don't know what to do with it" wealth, I don't see a need to spend an extra $155k for Harvard over Duke, or even an extra $70-80k for Harvard over Columbia/NYU. The money can be put to other/better uses than law school tuition.

people on TLS care way too much what has "lay prestige" (i.e., will my high school girlfriend's mom think I'm a big deal because I went to Penn v. Michigan)

I disagree. TLS has repeatedly counseled people not to consider "lay prestige" in choosing which law school to attend.

but HLS has a value add that's worth it in the legal and business world and its worth paying for.

• There's a value add in the legal world, but it's not anywhere close to a value add of $155k over Duke or $70-80k over CCN.
• No one should attend law school anywhere if they want to go into business. They should attend business school if they want to go into business. Law school is only worth attending for folks who want to practice law.

That money over the course of a legal career is unlikely to be as significant as the value of that degree.

Lots of things are "insignificant" over the course of a legal career. For example, burning wads of $50 bills as a stress-relief mechanism. Still doesn't make it a good idea.

I think "getting off the west coast" for 3 years is totally understandable. OP Is not in a situation where getting back should be a huge concern and wanting to spend 3 years of your life somewhere new is totally valid.

If OP wants to get the full value out of law school and keep as many doors open as possible, they will be busting their rear end all three years of law school. They will not have much/any free time during the academic year. They will have free time during 1L and 2L summers, but they can spend 1L summer wherever they want regardless of where they attend law school, and they must spend 2L summer in CA (since they want to work in CA post-graduation) regardless of where they attend law school.

If OP plans to take it easy in law school, or even just during 2L/3L, their outcomes will likely be functionally identical out of Harvard or Duke (or CCN).

[Samark45]

The median student at HLS has identical outcomes to CCN students: Going to a V20 BigLaw firm and, unless they are on law review, not doing an Article III clerkship. The very top end of HLS has better placement in ultra-competitive (and particularly conservative) clerkships, like the DC Circuit generally, Sutton, whatever etc -- don't mean to discount that. But that's relevant for ~maybe~ 5% of the class.

Both from experience and data, this is a material exaggeration, except maybe in the context of Big Law. If you end up developing an interest in some other field (again, international orgs, government work, academia, etc.), it's not *at all* just only the "top end" of HLS that gives you a real advantage. And because of how HLS grades work, it's not clear to employers where "in the middle of the pack" you are: you can seem to be more to the high-end of the middle than at other schools if you want to be. And employers (remember, we're not just talking legal employers) do go deeper into the bench because of that uncertainty.

From a wide angle and a long-term perspective, it's just not true that only the top 5% of an HLS class has these benefits. Take a peek outside the TLS bubble, at the real world, nationally and internationally, and then factor that against the money lost in financial aid over the course of decades of earning. Of course, you're free to not do that and take the "safer" road like some of the posters here prefer. Unlike some of the jaded old timers coming back from the other site, I'm not saying either option is clearly "right" or "wrong," but that you should think big-picture, from a variety of perspectives.

(The line about Cass Sunstein is misleading in a lot of ways, but that's another story...)

[LBJ's Hair]

The median student at HLS has identical outcomes to CCN students: Going to a V20 BigLaw firm and, unless they are on law review, not doing an Article III clerkship. The very top end of HLS has better placement in ultra-competitive (and particularly conservative) clerkships, like the DC Circuit generally, Sutton, whatever etc -- don't mean to discount that. But that's relevant for ~maybe~ 5% of the class.

Both from experience and data, this is a material exaggeration, except maybe in the context of Big Law. If you end up developing an interest in some other field (again, international orgs, government work, academia, etc.), it's not *at all* just only the "top end" of HLS that gives you a real advantage. And because of how HLS grades work, it's not clear to employers where "in the middle of the pack" you are: you can seem to be more to the high-end of the middle than at other schools if you want to be. And employers (remember, we're not just talking legal employers) do go deeper into the bench because of that uncertainty.

From a wide angle and a long-term perspective, it's just not true that only the top 5% of an HLS class has these benefits. Take a peek outside the TLS bubble, at the real world, nationally and internationally, and then factor that against the money lost in financial aid over the course of decades of earning. Of course, you're free to not do that and take the "safer" road like some of the posters here prefer. Unlike some of the jaded old timers coming back from the other site, I'm not saying either option is clearly "right" or "wrong," but that you should think big-picture, from a variety of perspectives.

(The line about Cass Sunstein is misleading in a lot of ways, but that's another story...)

Oh come on, the grading thing is true of Chicago and Columbia as well. They don't disclose GPAs. It's not a meaningful obstacle -- judges, hiring partners, clerks, and Harvard students themselves all attest to this. They've seen plenty of transcripts, there are Latin honors, and many people reviewing the transcripts themselves are alums.

I think your position ultimately can be summarized as "lawyers don't see a particularly meaningful difference between an HLS degree and a CCN degree, but non-lawyers do." That may or may nor be true, but given that OP is going to a *law* school, query whether that's worth $100,000.

[cavalier1138]

I think your position ultimately can be summarized as "lawyers don't see a particularly meaningful difference between an HLS degree and a CCN degree, but non-lawyers do." That may or may nor be true, but given that OP is going to a *law* school, query whether that's worth $100,000.

That's the kindest way of putting it. I tend to summarize his position as "I spent so much money earning this Harvard degree that it must be worth it."

[Samark45]

I tend to summarize his position as "I spent so much money earning this Harvard degree that it must be worth it."

I guess my first response to you didn't get through. You really are obsessed with me, aren't you? Did someone hurt you, somehow, that you need to project it forwards? Anyway, I feel sorry for you. Get help.

[jsnow212]

Both from experience and data, this is a material exaggeration, except maybe in the context of Big Law. If you end up developing an interest in some other field (again, international orgs, government work, academia, etc.), it's not *at all* just only the "top end" of HLS that gives you a real advantage.

In a vacuum, outcomes from HLS are clearly excellent. But, when weighed against the T10, it just so happens that it is only at the top end that having HLS/its resources make any material difference in outcomes. This is especially true in the scenarios you described of "other interests beside BL".

1) Academia, you need to be at the top. And even then it's probably top 10% at HLS vs. top 5% at CCN.
2) To work at a unicorn intl. org or PI group that favors hiring at HLS, you still need to be toward the top at HLS.(Your huge class of 550 have a substantial number of people who want these rare jobs, leaving only the top of that subset able to land them)
3) To the extent you work at these places later, you probably have an ultra-elite litigation firm/other elite employment under your belt. Again, this would imply being toward the higher end at HLS.
----
But, I can concede that not all of the benefits are reserved for the top of the class. Perhaps the bottom 10-15% of HLS will have a easier time landing an undesirable BL job from EIP/OCI than would a T13 grad. However, given the level of fucking-up it takes to be at the bottom, you'd probably be out of BL within a year or two with the debt still looming over your head.

[The Lsat Airbender]

But, I can concede that not all of the benefits are reserved for the top of the class. Perhaps the bottom 10-15% of HLS will have a easier time landing an undesirable BL job from EIP/OCI than would a T13 grad. However, given the level of fucking-up it takes to be at the bottom, you'd probably be out of BL within a year or two with the debt still looming over your head.

This was true back when the economy was worse but Chicago's per-capita employment numbers are straight-up better than Harvard's nowadays. I'm not saying "Chicago better overall", but having 350 fewer mouths to feed is a huge advantage that swamps any gap in gestalt quality when it comes to outcomes for the bottom third of the class. And I'd probably rather my transcript read "169" than "straight P's with one LP" if I'm trying to finesse my way past an interviewer at Jones Day or whatever.

[jsnow212]

But, I can concede that not all of the benefits are reserved for the top of the class. Perhaps the bottom 10-15% of HLS will have a easier time landing an undesirable BL job from EIP/OCI than would a T13 grad. However, given the level of fucking-up it takes to be at the bottom, you'd probably be out of BL within a year or two with the debt still looming over your head.

This was true back when the economy was worse but Chicago's per-capita employment numbers are straight-up better than Harvard's nowadays. I'm not saying "Chicago better overall", but having 350 fewer mouths to feed is a huge advantage that swamps any gap in gestalt quality when it comes to outcomes for the bottom third of the class. And I'd probably rather my transcript read "169" than "straight P's with one LP" if I'm trying to finesse my way past an interviewer at Jones Day or whatever.